Every year, I come across thousands of people who are trying to love, give, be, do, twist, turn, morph, adapt and transform themselves, so that they can ‘win’ the affections and attentions of others. They believe they’re “not good enough” and that’s why they have to do all of these things. They figure that they’ll be rewarded when they eventually reach the tipping point. For example, convincing can manifest as…
Trying to convince others that you’re good enough for them or even for their peers and family.
Or trying to convince someone that you’re beautiful enough, or of your worth and that you’re worthy enough.
It’s trying to convince someone (or people in general) that you’re loyal, understanding, and supportive even of the shadiest of behaviour.
Relationships just don’t have the room for you to be engaging in actions that you think are going to cause someone to believe that you’re ‘good enough’, beautiful, worthy, slim, whatever, enough. That’s what convincing others is about. It’s like, “Tell me that you believe that I am true or what I have to offer is real.”
‘Convincing’ tells someone that you’re not personally secure. At times, it may even say that you’re desperate, which is unlikely to be what you intended to convey.
No one thinks, “Wow they’re really insecure (or really) desperate so they must love me dearly”. However, they do your convincing ways raise flags and question marks over you and the very value you’re trying to convey. Your trying to convince them inadvertently slips into the territory of Those Who Doth Protest Too Much.
I used to be responsible for pulling in seven figures of revenue for a magazine. There was always that tense time between pitching to an agency or client and the deal being approved. Despite this, I didn’t run around haranguing them into a deal because it would have smelt like desperation, in turn raising unnecessary questions or perceptions. I’m not saying I didn’t follow up about deals (trust me, you would if you had to work for a real life David Brent / Michael Scott a la The Office), but I was very relaxed about things. I made sure I presented our brand and product in the best light to convey the value so that they’d have to think pretty damn hard before turning it down.
Recently, I wrote about relationship deal-breakers.
You both have to put both feet in to the relationship. It’s a 100:100 effort. Neither party is less or more special, and if one you is thinking along these lines, a deal isn’t going to happen, unless you want to sign a bad relationship deal.
The trouble with ‘convincing’ others is that you feel that you have to go the extra mile to convey certain things about yourself. You don’t believe you can let it be. Or, you’re not willing to accept what will happen if you stop pursuing them for what really amounts to validation – confirmation of your worth and of your ‘rightness’.
Often what we believe someone needs to hear or see to be ‘converted’ is waaaay off mark. I had someone try to ‘prove’ they were honest to me. Problem is, I hadn’t thought they were dishonest in the first place. Even if someone tells us what they need to be converted, they may be talking out of their bum. In other instances, they’re asking for things that convey that they’re not the right person for us.
Too many people spend their lives making it their vocation to find out, “Am I the right one for you?” We’re not spending anywhere near enough time asking, “Are you the right one for me?” It’s almost as if we assume that if someone will dignify us with a relationship that they must be ‘right’ for us. Um, no! They’re just not that special!
Trying to convince others in your relationships screams:
“Tell me who I am”
“Make me whoever you think I should be”.
“Approve me. Buy me. Sign the friggin’ deal please.”
Convincing others will have you being anything but yourself, because your actions reflect a mentality that says you’re not good enough and that you ‘must’ be and do whatever it is that you believe will convince aka people pleasing. Convincing says you’ve got to ‘convert’ them, which screams that the position they’re in now is of non acceptance/agreement. That’s a major code amber to red alert right there.
You’re in one of two positions:
1) You automatically behave like someone who has to work extra hard to convince others because you assume you come from a ‘lower’ position. You’ll be an Overgiver because you don’t believe you’re worthy. They’ll do one thing; you’ll do several.
2) You’re being treated like (or told) that you’re not good enough. So now you’re trying to jump through hoops and cartwheel over hot coals with your self-esteem trailing behind you to meet someone else’s standards and cater to their shifting goalposts.
The first says step back, stand still, rein in your giving, and take this person off their pedestal so that you can meet them on a level. Let them meet you in the relationship. Or opt out of dating until you’re ready to be an equal from the outset.
The second position says you’re not accepted, which means this person doesn’t respect or value you, which means they’re not good enough for you, which means it’s time to hit your flush/eject button.
You’re a person of value. Trying to convince others of it automatically devalues you in the process. It’s acting like all they need to do is show up and breathe. That’s ridiculous! Who died and put them in charge of you and your value?
You’ll never feel secure or happy in the relationship. You need to arrive to a relationship ‘deal’ as an equal and stay that way.
Occasionally, in my old job, I had clients who would try to get me to do what we call ‘dropping your pants’ in media. The deal is on the table and then they keep haggling to squeeze down their costs and up their value for money. I always buffered myself in preparation but knew my limits and walked away, because I refused to devalue the product.
It’s tough but sticking to my guns and knowing my limits (boundaries) was invaluable. Clients who didn’t value the product were never going to buy anyway. Others came back at a later date after respecting the value and recognising they’d have to stump up (some had snoozed and lost). And the rest went ahead and did the deal. It’s very similar for relationships.
I also have a rule in business: while there can be room for a little compromise, I don’t tell others what I think they’re selling is worth. I either buy or I don’t, and I don’t expect others to tell me what I’m worth either. This works well in interpersonal relationships also.
Relationships are a lot more simple than we give them credit for: the other party is either in or out. They either accept you or they don’t. If you have to convince them to be ‘in’ or to ‘accept’, it’s a deal-breaker.
Being yourself, action, and interaction creates value. Convincing sucks the mutual out of the relationship, which you need for a healthy partnering, plus it’s just not attractive.
Sing it to yourself: “I am what I am, and what I am, needs no excuses..or convincing.”
Your thoughts?
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I would just add that the “con” in “con artist” or “con man” comes from the word “convince”. So I feel like when I have to convince someone to see me in a certain way, instead of just being who I am and letting them figure it out, or not, then I feel down deep like I’m “conning” them.
This, of course, leaves room for me to change, and to make real improvements in myself not just sham or exaggerated improvements. I have to let others be themselves, too, and not try to force them to be people they aren’t. …. Sigh. So difficult sometimes.
A-men CCMe – well said. In behaving in a spirit of acceptance we can see someone in a true light. That light may not be one we like or that we can operate in, but it spares us being deluded by denial or even our own ego.
Perfect. This is ABSOLUTELY the perfect advice for what I’m currently going through right now. I just stated reading your blogs about a month ago, and they have made me much more educated about my feelings and reactions to things. I cannot thank you enough. Furthermore, this post just put that final nail in the coffin that holds my romantic feelings for this EU in my life. There is a point when trying to be nice & understanding slips into that convincing & desperate phase. I think this post has helped me from slipping into that disrespectful phase. Whew! 🙂
Yes, EU= code red, I know, but that is easier said than done when I once considered him one of my best friends. Trying oh so hard to lose that emotional baggage at the terminal…
Thank you Mimi. I was in a similar situation once and the whole best friend thing completely messed with my head. One day I realised that prior to our involvement we hadn’t actually been friends. The whole friend connection tied me to him for 18 months and when I put my hand in the fire momentarily, it was the best friend thing yet again. I hated behaving like someone that was coming across as desperate and convincing and I was someone that he admired and I think at times even envied – we worked in the same place and I quickly outpaced him. When a colleague said to me that they were surprised that someone “like me” would be acting as I had around him, it made my cheeks burn. Convincing isn’t sexy, attractive, or even necessary.
The man I dealt with on & off since high school was also my male “best friend”. What a crock. LMAO. Real friends don’t take advantage of others.
I have a simple rule about ‘friendship’ that has served me well – real friends don’t try to f*ck you or f*ck you over.
Absolutely YES.
This is so true about trying to cater to standards/shifting goalposts – exhausting, demoralizing and ultimately pointless. On my final go-round with my ex-AC, I believed that the ONLY reason he didn’t want to have a relationship with me was because I had let him disrespect me so many times before. I thought maybe, just maybe this time around he might take me seriously because I’d told him to take the old “run and jump” a few months prior. I didn’t even consider that the situation might say something about him and instead attempted to put all my efforts into convincing him how worthwile I was – talking about my future career plans, waiting to sleep with him, etc. Nothing wrong with doing any of these things, but if you’re doing it not because you’re trying to convince someone to respect you, it’s a waste. In reality, the fact that I’d even taken his calls was a huge, glaring sign to him that I didn’t really respect myself enough and was willing to believe the excuses he pulled out of his bum. In the end, it’s a good thing he behaved horribly and disappeared, because it still, at 4 months NC, makes me cringe that I was trying to convince someone to respect me that was never, ever going to do it.
Very well said Natasha. You were so busy trying to convince that it blinded you to less than attractive aspects of the relationship and him. Actions communicate a lot I’ve discovered and no matter how well intentioned, if they are already coming from a place of being able to disrespect you, they just don’t apply the same meaning. Trying to convince someone that doesn’t treat you with love, care, trust, and respect is a confusing, painful act that is best avoided.
Mmmmhmm! I’d been feeling a bit down over the past few days because I got a text from him (promptly deleted, of course). Now, this actually speaks to progress because I wasn’t all “Validation!!”, it just made me recall how embarassed I still am! The irony of it is it occurred to me that I don’t respect him in the least and I really need to stop shaming myself.
That’s brilliant! You’re thinking about your reaction and not about him and his feelings/reasons/motivations. Awesome! Be proud! Soon he will be just another idiot you once went out with.
Thanks Minky! It’s definitely starting to be a huge weight off my shoulders and a relief to fiiiiiiiinally be done with it after five long and unproductive years. Thank you again for the encouragement, it really is much appreciated 🙂 *Hugs*
“I didn’t even consider that the situation might say something about him and instead attempted to put all my efforts into convincing him how worthwile I was…”
TRUTH
Paradoxically, trying to convince someone that you’re good enough for them simultaneously convinces you that you aren’t good enough for them.
I speak from experience.
Cheers.
Super sum-up!
“Paradoxically, trying to convince someone that you’re good enough for them simultaneously convinces you that you aren’t good enough for them. ” Brilliant
I wrote recently that *I* am the hardest one to convince of my own worth. Reading this post makes me remember that very early on, I “confessed” to my ex that I “didn’t really have my shit together.” I’m in a PhD program, have written a couple books, and more professionally, but I still feel I don’t have my shit together and he, with his great, high-profile job and inside connections, represented totally having your shit together.
I have felt like Natasha, thinking, he would have been more respectful of me if a) I had had my shit together and b) I didn’t whine like a little b*tch about not having it together and wanting him to say, no, no, you’re great. He would treat me meanly and two moments later tell me I’m great and that I really need to work on my self-esteem because I’m the only one who doesn’t think I’m amazing.
I’m not quite sure where this feeling of worthlessness and fuckedupness comes from but I have NO intention of dating while it is still so real for me. If I respected someone enough to want to date them, I would be panicked about them having to deal with these sides of me.
My ex made it clear early on that he wanted to be able to make comments that sexualized me or devalued my opinion. I too assumed that I, in my fuckedupness, also failed to teach him my value and so went overtime trying to convince him to treat me with respect. It got confusing because while I was confident that I should not be talked to like a sexual possession, my shame over what I have made of my life made me feel like that is all I could expect.
I tried to convince him I was worth something, but didn’t really feel it. I still have some pretty raw spots of humiliation feeling like the uninformed, artsy ditz around this person who did international deals. I know I had weak boundaries and shouldn’t have been in the deal with him in the first place; I had been working on me and was in a pretty strong place, then about a year of hanging out with this dude around whom I felt so much “less than” has set me back some.
Please forgive the tone. The whole DSK thing has triggered me – and the Arnie thing – the finance culture, the alpha male entitlement, articles describing the whole IMF as a place where women feel they have to work overtime to get basic respect which they don’t get anyway – I want justice. There is a way in which I was “less…than”: power. It kills me to think that my “equal” might be someone as equally powerless. I guess I still feel powerless.
God, I am so not ready to date yet!
But Magnolia, you’re assuming that you’re not a powerful person or ‘less’ powerful. Why can’t you just be a powerful person in your own right? We all have a backbone and the power to be and do many things – we just need to access it. You’re not a weak person. Yes you’ve made mistakes and had your weak moments and boundaries, but you’re human – who hasn’t? That doesn’t make you ‘weak’ – it makes you human. You’re not the bionic woman. Even people we perceive as having their shit together are fucking up – they just might be better at keeping it to themselves. Also most people that are ‘successful’ or perceived as being ‘extra powerful’ did not got there without having to cut their teeth on a few fuck ups. We all make mistakes and we all get things wrong – if we fail to admit these things and are scared of making mistakes, that is what sucks the wind out of you and makes you ripe for an unavailable relationship because we can’t handle the vulnerability that comes with ‘mistakes’. As it turns out, and I speak from personal experience and of course that of readers – they sky doesn’t fall down nor is anything ever as bad as the results of *not* admitting a mistake and learning from it.
This is something that I need to remind myself of every single damn day. Natasha, I understand. Natalie, thanks for the simple yet profound paragraph.
Ladies, I have to remind myself of this all the time too. At the end of the day, we made some mistakes, we put men up on a pedestal that we shouldn’t have even given the time of day, but it’s human! I saw an ad for one of those unintentionally hilarious Lifetime Movies about how the Amish shun people when they’ve f*cked up and I thought, “Sweet LORD, this is what I’ve been doing to myself!”
Hi Magnolia,
I know you know this already, but if you’re like me (a big if of course) a reminder from a stranger on ‘the outside’ might be helpful…
Comparing or measuring social status, achievement, etc. is ALWAYS an ego trip and is by nature a bad trip at that. We will never be a finished final product. If you’re too attached for now to your drive for success, then take wealth and possessions instead, and see if this argument works for you. Then check again if the same holds for ‘shit-togetherness’!
There is no such thing as a day when we have so much stuff/have our shit so together that it is once and for all enough, and we would henceforth rest on our laurels, feeling all done, sated, accomplished, superior etc. Try and try as you may ’till kingdom come.
Both flaky men and the rest of the universe are outside our control. It’s not just EU partners — life itself is nothing but shifting goalposts. By life, I mean your life including both your circumstances and your inner growth and inner life. You will shift goalposts on yourself, if circumstances beyond your control don’t do it for you first. Shit-togetherness is relative, elusive, and frankly, ultimately unsatisfying. Don’t even spend precious time worrying about it, just live your life! You can still have ambitions of course, but you need results to make you happy about as much as you need an assclown to validate your self-worth…
So true, NML! Thank you once again! The business analogy is good. I had to explain a similar idea to a friend the other day, who was arguing that intimate relationships should be different (ie people shouldn’t be turned off by over-eagerness in personal relationships). Alas.
Two other (random) responses:
1) I am glad you included non-intimate relationships in this (family etc). I find I have some of this mentality when it comes to my professional life. I take it too personally when I am not accepted (either in the big sense or little sense), all the while overlooking the question you pose about whether this position, task etc. is for me and whether the person/job knows better. I think there’s probably something in it that too much convincing and anxiety about rejections (small and large) are signs that you might be in the wrong field (same as a relationship). It could, of course, be down to self-esteem issues etc. that would apply in any career, but not always or even often.
2) One trend I have noticed since entering the big bad dating scene is that people seem a little too quick to say ‘I am not convincing anyone of my worth’, even though they haven’t really been all that kind, open, reliable and charming in the first place. It’s like any requirement to be in a healthy relationship is seen as an attack on their worth as a person. Equally, when they get frustrated by you (inevitable in real relationships), they feel uncomfortable about ‘changing’ you, and so the plug is pulled. I know what you argue here is quite different and for a different purpose, but there is an unhealthy brand of the ‘won’t convince anyone of my worth’ attitude that is challenging and a red flag in itself.
I think there’s a really important thing to remember here: Actions and interactions communicate a hell of a lot more about us than any words can. It’s also what we don’t do and what we don’t say that can add to that. I’m into ‘organic’ relationships. Anyone who is looking for any old reason to exit when things are not happy clappy 24/7 is not going to stay *anyway*. One day they may learn to calm down and stay the course and work through things (I did) or they might not. I had to shut down my flight reflex – that’s not ‘changing’ me. *I* did it because it was counterproductive to think that the relationship was going tits up every time there was even so much as a glimmer of ‘conflict’ – that’s emotional maturity.
Nobody has to convince anyone of anything. We have to be and do – that communicates everything about us so if your expectation is for someone to ‘convince’ you, it says that their actions and what they ‘put out’ about themselves is not coming across as ‘real’ or ‘true’. If someone doesn’t want to convince you of something that isn’t going to show up via their actions anyway, you’ll both be parting ways one way or the other. I’ve said this before but people who show and tell you who they are, even if it’s not something that you like, are being authentic. It might be a brand of assholery, but they run a tight ship and they are happier than a pig in shit being who they are because on a surface level it works for them. They’re not your problem. Flush, move on. It’s not your job to force anyone to show anything that they don’t want to show anyway.
Elle, I think I know what you mean, and interestingly your comment and Nat’s insistence that people in fact don’t have to convince (they also shouldn’t need to protest too much that they don’t have to), reminds me of an old friend who was a pothead and couldn’t hold a job.
He had a bunch of girlfriends who reflected his dissatisfaction with himself. He thought he was a screw-up, and he dated women who were always exasperated with his habits, and his self-esteem dropped even further as the women tried to get him to clean up his act.
He eventually decided “eff it.” This is who I am. I want a woman who is happy with herself and happy with me as I am. And the next woman he found told him she didn’t care if he didn’t have a job, she thought he was the funniest person ever. He didn’t have to convince her of anything.
They are married with kids now. They don’t have the kind of relationship I’m looking for but ironically, the acceptance my friend showed for himself, and that he found reflected through her, led to him cleaning up his act on his own.
I don’t know if this is exactly what NML means (ie. decide your pot addiction is part of the package), but it taught me something about thinking you have to be perfect before you fit the old shoe that find your dirty sock.
Great comment Magnolia. I wasn’t saying that addiction is part of the package but what is at the heart of all acceptance issues in relationships is resistance. Little do we realise when we hope someone will change because they’re with us, that we’re saying “I don’t accept you” and most people just cannot cope with it, and don’t feel any better about it because it’s coming from a ‘I love you’ place. When it feels like someone is always rejecting you, why *would* you change? Freedom came for me when I stopped resisting the truth of people – that made my relationships easier with my parents and it meant that I opted out of any relationships where me accepting the truth made it unworkable.
I actually know a number of people who are involved with/married to someone that used to smoke weed. None of them smoke weed anymore or only do so occasionally. None of them were ‘made’ to change – their priorities and their lifestyle changed. They wanted to for their own reasons. You’re right – it may not be your thing but the lesson is clear – rejection, like convincing is not attractive.
It’s like meeting someone and they saying “Um…yeah…this doesn’t work for me and I love you but you need to make this change and that change and then you’ll have my full love”.
Mag
Nice story.
I think love can be very transforming. If you accept someone as they are it gives them space to reach their full potential – get healthy, get a job they enjoy (not necessarily a fanstastically well paid one), be a good partner.
It’s a gazillion miles away from “I love him/her … but I wish they were slimmer/funnier/cooler/better paid/better dressed/more this/less that/whatever”.
And sometimes when you demand a certain trait from someone, by words or actions (through lack of acceptance) some people actually get very contrary and rebellious and start doing the opposite, sometimes subconsiously! I find that when i talk to really pretentious, up themselves type people, despite the fact that i am also very intelligent and can probably have a marvellously intellectual conversation, my instinct is to mess about or be more coarse as a response. That’s just me and i know not everyone is the same.
Case in point: a guy i know whose ex always complained about his lack of maturity (due to his young at heart nature) and lack of ‘caring’ because he wasn’t a posessive ass. He’s now in a relationship with someone as fun-loving and carefree as he, who accepts and loves him for who he is, he now displays great maturity and always looks out for the welfare of his girlfriend and acts very responsibly within the relationship.
Demanding behaviour from someone as if they owe you something and are lacking in some way can often be very counterproductive.
Hey ladies – thanks for the comments. I completely agree with the idea that if someone is happy with who they are – even if I perceived it as dysfunctional for a relationship, I don’t have to do anything about it. It obviously suits them, and it is a waste of my time (and essentially quite arrogant of me) to do so. In my initial comment, I had thought I was simply observing the tendency of people who date later in life (when they’ve made more of themselves and know themselves better) to be hypersensitive about change, to the point where they refuse to make or receive little pointers/ feedback moments that are needed just to keep a relationship going. But I am glad you took this further because it made me think more deeply about the issue of acceptance. You’re right, there’s nothing better than that loving space and trust that allows you to change if you want to. Confidence builds and then you want to be better (in those big and small ways). I’ve had few relationships in my life in which I felt this, but I have experienced it, and I would like to have it and offer it again. With the last guy I saw, I think we both immediately rejected each other, but we proceeded on for reasons to do with loneliness/attraction, hope and a sense of fairness, but that underlying lack of acceptance and our eventual honesty about this drove it to the ground – the small requests became threats because there was not that underlying sense of love. That full, mutual acceptance…hmm…has been a while…
And that distinction, NML, between ‘changing’ v becoming more emotionally mature is really helpful. Thanks.
When I was the fallback girl I spent so much time trying to convince my ex I was worthy to still be in his world that it was down right exhausting. When I look back I’m ashamed that I thought so little of myself but its a journey and as long as I’m going forward I’m making progress.
I like Natasha cringe that I was trying to convince someone to respect me that was never, ever going to do it.
Too right MaryC – been there, done that. Having a periodical cringe keeps me moving forward.
So true! The cringe is an excellent way to remind us that “that was then, this is now”. Sometimes, they sneak up on you – I was looking around in a kicthen cabinet yesterday morning and I found a cookie sheet I’d made him cookies on because he was stressed at work (this is why said cringe lasted approx. 12-16 hours…baked goods have never caused me so much shame). You know you were in a crappy relationship if you’re like, “Ohmygod, I did something nice for someone. How embarassing!”
Ugh. Cringe here too. In my case, it was burning CD’s. It’s not even that the pr*ck doesn’t “deserve” little gifts — it’s the spirit in which it is given: Maybe this will buy me love! I cannot stand listening to those songs for enjoyment. I do however listen to them as a reminder of the misery I aim to stay away from, same as you ladies.
I can relate to this, you really do need to ask more often “Are you the right one for me?”.. ” So often guys start to back off as soon as you start to feel something, So many seem to do that, It gets frustrating you just want to know sometimes I think what it’s actually like to NOT have one run off? To and be able to experience what it’s even like!”
For me, I usually want so desperately to not have to loose all hope yet one more time in another guy or to have to realize that I just wasted my time again. : (
So often for so long there seems to be just enough of a carrot dangling in front of you to make you think it could still happen, But then it starts to look more and more like it never will, and you never seem to get a clear reason or explanation of why?
Before you even knew it you were doing it again, and hating it, hating yourself for doing it, and after enough time start you to hate him for dangling that carrot in front of you the first place and for being so vague.
Guys seem to be “professionals” at being just vague enough about things to keep you around for just awhile longer, wondering, or hoping for some change, I mean after all they are still wounded by their past. Maybe you want them to know that you would never do what she did etc, etc, But nope still not convinced after 6 months whatever time frame – Finally you get frustrated and explode verbally, You loose your desire to even try anymore your tired, your fed up, you don’t want to have to work this damn hard! and then BAM thats when they really let you know they never had any intention to have any sort of future with you anyhow! And hey now it’s your fault for having lost your temper.
The whole thing is a rotten cycle, One that I really I don’t want any part of I tell you that, I’m really tired of not feeling good enough here, I dont even know how it all came about I think starting at childhood – It seems like every failure somehow convinced me that I was less than I was – When I know damn well logically I am more than deserving of love, But when in the hell will my feelings catch up with the logic?
It makes you worried for your life and your future, You don’t want it to be this way at all – You want it to end.
I don’t know about anyone else – but I dont even want another reason to even be angry at another guy – I just want to be free…
Well vagueness is ambiguity is code amber to red behaviour. Never be involved in a vague relationship because anyone doing ‘just enough’ isn’t coming anywhere even close to putting both of their feet in a relationship. It’s like he’s just watering your garden occasionally. You’re either in or out – there is no room for vagueness once you’ve gone past the initial dating stage.
Oh Brenda you said it so well. Thank you.
Don’t just ask yourself if they’re the right one for you. Go ahead and ask out loud by telling him what kind of a person is right for you, and then let him show you if he is the one. Watch and evaluate. (Not speaking from experience but doing this might have saved me some trouble!)
Well said.
The only person who is worth being with is the one who loves and values you for who you are. You have nothing to “prove” to anyone – partners or otherwise. Trying to convince someone to be with you who doesn’t see the beauty of you as the whole package is nothing short of a gross personal devaluation.
Amen Taz!
**If you have to convince them to be ‘in’ or to ‘accept’, it’s a deal breaker.**
A wonderful rule to live by. My first non-EUM/non-AC boyfriend broke up with me after 5.5 months, seemingly out of the blue last week. While I can still hear the squeaks of the old Fallback Girl in me, telling me I need to win him back, I am shushing her completely, and have been (and will continue to) institute all of the 10 Breakup Boundaries, beginning with No Contact. Thank you so much for everything Natalie!!! <3
“I am shushing her completely” – Go Snowboard go! That’s so empowering! I’m sorry to hear of what’s happened and sending you a big squeezy hug!
I understand the letting go of being “best friends” idea, Mimi. My ex hopes I move on with my life so he can have his “best friend” back. It really doesn’t work like that, does it? Being besties, requires mutual respect. I stupidly let him re-engage with me recently and he went right back to being cruel and disrespectful, a pattern we are both used to. I got sucked in because I thought for one moment that he remembered how to treat me. He did not. My mistake.
The problem is, once respect is lost, it is seriously hard to go back to anything, even a friendship. He mentioned one day that I am no longer this strong, charismatic woman he first met. This if course, was the only time in our relationship where I felt no need whatsoever to convince him of my value. Equally, he is no longer the caring man I thought had my back. The need to convince him came once he started disrespecting me. I hadn’t started out convincing,.. I was trying to get back to that place we originally stood. The more he pulled away, the harder I tried to please him. I know it’s pathetic and I do believe I did come off like I was selling myself.
When I first met him, I thought I was really strong and in a really good place but clearly I was not or it wouldn’t have been this easy for him to turn my life upside down. I long for the self esteem that guards me from such men or people in general. But self esteem is hard work, at least for me it is. For some of us, it takes years of being tested and negotiated before building a healthy armor. The only convincing I should be doing, is convincing myself of my own worth, because sadly, right now that is the hardest sell of all.
“He mentioned one day that I am no longer this strong, charismatic woman he first met. This if course, was the only time in our relationship where I felt no need whatsoever to convince him of my value.”
This is exactly where i was going wrong for years! I have had soooo many relationships that started off with them respecting me hugely because i was myself and not convincing the of my value and then, once i became attached to them and feared losing them, i would start modifying my behaviour so that the wouldn’t ‘go off me’. I would be easygoing about everything, i would be nervous about arguing back, i would, in short, start acting like some pathetic, pandering creature! And for what? A premonition i’d had about losing them, which was based on absolutely nothing! Nothing but my own imagination. I had imagined, because i didn’t believe i was worthy, that THEY would suddenly see through the ‘sham’ and realise that i wasn’t worthy. It’s impossible to have a relationship like this! I was totally sabbotaging all my chances. They could have been the most perfect men in the world and i still would have runied it with my ridiculous antics!
I noticed these very thought patterns emerging with the current boyfriend, once things started to get serious, and i even noticed a bit of behaviour modification and extra ‘easygoing-ness’, because of that age old fear. I decided to ignore it and the first time i kicked off, after that realisation, was really nerve-wracking. Nothing happened. Things are still good with us. As Nat advised me in another comment response, we don’t have to be ‘always on’ and neither do they.
Are you me Minky? It’s like you went in my brain six years ago and read my mind. That is exactly what I thought and did.
Well considering where you are today, i draw great comfort from this! 🙂 Can’t thank you enough for the progress i’ve made already.
Gingerbell, speaking fro personal experience and echoing what Minky said, I think that being in a relationship sometimes has us feeling like we have to throw away all our strength. To be honest, you’ve probably conveyed much more strength and respect by walking away. I find experience builds confidence – opting out, treating yourself well, trusting your judgment, imposing limits to what you’ll put up with, knowing what is and isn’t healthy in a relationship, and always using the benchmark of prior experience helps to build confidence. You’re not alone and that in itself is confirmation that what you’ve experienced is very prevalent.
One of my rules throughout life is, and has always been, to never try to convince anyone to be in my personal space – in a romantic, friendly, or family manner. The thought of looking/feeling desperate & pathetic usually won/wins out. If a person doesn’t want to be my friend or otherwise….. if a person can’t like/love & accept me for me….. as disappointing as it may be, there won’t be any convincing here. Take a walk and don’t let the door hit you where the good Lord split you. *waves goodbye*
Gonna re-read this tomorrow.
“Take a walk and don’t let the door hit you where the good Lord split you. ” That made me laugh Spinster. We can always ask, but I’m not begging anyone. They snooze, they lose.
Yes “Begging” as soon as you feel like your “Begging” get outta there!
I know for sure I am done with it, You know why? Cause as soon as I get any hint I am starting to feel that way- I will Imagine that I have a BOMB strapped to my body, Cause it’s really the same thing in a way, a form of retarded suicide to the self.
Ugh, how to shake off this ‘not good enough’ thing. It plagues me everyday. I have had this feeling my whole life but I don’t think it’s ever been this bad and yes, it certainly does lead to convincing. Telling your love interest what nice things others have said to you in hopes it will help him see it. I know I have talked about my weight loss before in some posts but the side effects of it really come into play for me here. I thought if I lost the weight, I would be more appealing to men and wouldn’t have to ‘convince’. It has not been the case leaving me feeling very vulnerable and hopeless about dating and my worth to men. It’s primitive, their need to be with attractive women and ours to be with ‘strong’ men. I suppose sometimes we override it but generally, that’s what we are drawn to.
I have been reading a lot about narcissism and I think the guy I was involved with was narcissistic or at least had strong traits. From what I read, narcissistic men need to be with attractive (by consensual reality standards) to improve their status/validate them. My guy always hid me away, would not show public displays of affection and went to lengths to avoid me meeting his roommate. I don’t think I have ever felt this ugly…thinking about that makes me cringe. I have to wait to find a guy who doesn’t care about dating someone pretty? That hurts.
This quest to convince and try to get validation is a tough one because as women, our value is so tied to how we look (the thing I seek validation for the most). I think that is why I chased ‘his’ validation so much. I believed he was superior to me (and in some ways he was) and I think in some ways he knew he was too. So, if I could convince him to want me, then it means I am okay.
Not sure how to put this to bed and feel like I am enough…like I shouldn’t have to convince anyone of anything. It’s tough when you don’t feel like you have many options so when a cute guy comes by and shows me some interest, I am really vulnerable and I start working hard to convince him. It’s true that it doesn’t make me look attractive to do that but the anxiety/insecurity start running the show. I was ‘good enough’ to be his narcissistic supply when he needed it but he needed to keep me on the shelf indoors where no on e could see him feeding. It hurts.
Lisa, I think one of the core pieces of information that always gets missed when people go on the quest of diagnosing narcissism or even narcissistic tendencies is: If you think someone is a narcissist or even may be, that in itself is code red, abort mission, take a parachute and jump. Narcissists cannot love and they haven’t got an empathetic muscle, bone, drop of blood in their body. Of course the situation is hurtful but if you think he is or might be, but continuing to be with him is like saying “I can only look for love from someone who can’t love because I am unlovable”.
I also think that you are taking things from one extreme to the other – it’s not about finding someone that doesn’t care about dating someone pretty. It’s about finding someone who isn’t an asshole or unavailable. That’s got sweet FA to do with your appearance.
As women our value *isn’t* tied to how we look – yours may be, but be aware – if you are focused on looks alone, or even for the majority, you end up in superficial relationships as proven by the insubstantial relationship you have with this dicksplash.
I hear from women all the time that get hidden away. It’s got nothing to do with your ‘looks’ – it’s because they don’t want any external confirmation of their involvement with you. Bearing in mind I hear from women who are models or even actresses that get stowed away like some sexual skivvy, you are waaaay off mark. You’re dating an asshole. That’s what assholes do – shitty things.
Wanting to convince the man who fundamentally is incapable of love or being convinced is self abuse. You want to be made an exception to a psychological rule, which is like trying to go down in the history books or as a future case study on converting narcissists.
Even so much of a *whiff* of narcissism is pressing that fricking eject button like you would not even *believe*. Run as fast as you can and stop letting this user suck the life out of you. Get counseling, anything but do *something*.
Sweet FA – I love it! It’s really true. It was obvious that my ex-AC was uncomfortable with me meeting his friends and wasn’t crazy about me writing on his Fbook wall (though he’d peed all over mine with cutesy references and I personally would never pull the old “Let me make it obvious that we’re involved, so all you b*tches KNOW.”) and when I was a hot mess after this all happened, I decided it was because he was ashmaed of me. My mother said to me just about the same thing! To quote her, “Natasha, the man is an ASSHOLE. He wanted to keep all his options open and basically carry on in his life when he wasn’t with you like you didn’t exist. This is what makes him an asshole.” Lisa, my dear, listen to Natalie she is RIGHT!
Thanks Natasha,
I know some of his behavior makes him an asshole AND people reading this are going to want to strangle me because I can see how I am kinda MISSING THE POINT and…I have so many “ya, buts” when I read the replies to my post (but maybe he was just trying to hook up a booty call/narcissistic supply when he met me because he knew right from start that I wasn’t good enough for him (he did tell me he didn’t want a relationship), maybe he did hide me cause he was ashamed and thought it would lower his status).
It’s the idea that regardless of his character and how he would treat someone who he “loves” or thinks he loves, someone who he calls his girlfriend (not me but others in the past), he never wanted that with me and that’s where the rejection lives. I know that is so sad because from what you say, he wouldn’t be capable of loving anyone, even if he was smitten with her at one time and made her his girl. There are still so many uncertainties…I don’t know for certain how he would treat someone that he loves. I just know how he treated me, someone who he obviously didn’t love and feel was worthy of committing to and that’s where the regret and pain are. This is where I am stuck and it’s like a riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped in piece of bacon.
Lisa,
I really empathize (hope I’m using that word right) with your situation. I’ve blamed so much mistreatment on my being “a dog.” I can remember one guy who used to treat me meanly (but still use me for sex) and then he made another girl his gf, and gave her a necklace I lost at his place (I saw it on her, and was like, hey, I made that!).
Anyway, did you ever think maybe he didn’t love you because you’re not “unreal’? I mean, if we exaggerate the dynamic you’ve described, what if we said he didn’t love you because you weren’t a supermodel, rather than just saying he didn’t find you attractive enough?
Why would any self-respecting woman (or supermodel) put up with any person who really felt they couldn’t love anyone who wasn’t a supermodel?
By that token, why would you put up with, or care about the opinion of, someone who you think doesn’t love people he doesn’t think are a physical 10? or 9 or whatever? It’s the same logic.
I picture this person you’re talking about like a big two year old, picking up women in his fat fist and sucking on them and deciding, pretty dollie! yucky dollie! and spitting out the “yucky dollies”. Sure, a dude like that will “love” – ie. run after, kiss, want, whatever – “pretty dollies”, but who cares?
In the end his “love” is no better than getting slobbered on, anyway. And you could end up in the “yucky dollie” pile not because of how you looked, but because you wanted more than slobber.
Lisa,
I know it’s hard to get your head around this stuff. Believe me, I think a lot of us here on BR have trouble with this, otherwise we would not be posting on here, trying to figure it out. Sometimes, for our own sanity, we have to walk away from the puzzle. By that, I mean, we may never understand how someone can treat others carelessly, because that is not who we are. Thank God for that.
I know that my ex had a lot of AC behaviors towards me. And yes, I took it personally, even though I sometimes saw these behaviors with other people in his life as well. I also imagine that he treats his current gf like a queen.
Here is the conclusion I came to. If he really is that clueless about relationships, then he will never find a healthy one, and I dodged a bullet. If he is calculating enough to know what an AC he is being, and he picks and chooses certain people to take advantage of, then I REALLY dodged a bullet.
What if he treated ME like a queen, but disrespected everyone around him? That would matter to me, because I would want a man of integrity, kindness, and respect by my side. There were times when he treated me well, but when I would see him cheat someone else in a business deal, it bothered me. Then there were times he was a complete douche to me.
A decent man who is disinterested would not take advantage of a woman. (That is not to excuse us women from protecting our self-worth in the first place.) A man of questionable character would take what is on offer and use her, to the extent she lets him. So, you are not confusing disinterest and character.
I do hope you can get to the place where, instead of worrying how he might be a better man to someone else, you would worry about how you might be a better woman to yourself.
This is exactly where I was a few months ago, doing the whole why, why, why didn’t I get the same treatment? What I finally had to accept was that I wasn’t there and I had no idea what really went on with the exes and that it hadn’t actually worked out with any of them, so chances were I didn’t know the whole story. Once this finally sunk in, some time later I ended up hearing through a random piece of gossip that, when it came to his exes, after the “hot phase” was over, it was same jackass, different day. People are people, and it’s highly unlikely that all of a sudden a great guy is going to turn into a raging asshole just because he’s with a different woman. Every relationship is different and, if they are with a woman that makes them try harder, she may get more out of him, but it’s still the SAME person. The other issue is the infamous reset button, where they meet someone new and say, “I’m going to be a wonderful boyfriend!”, but then it’s not long until who they actually are takes over. When you get right down to it, he’s a grown man and didn’t treat you well…that says a lot about him.
p.s. I read in one of Natalie’s articles once that authentic people don’t compartmentalize their behavior, i.e. a person who is fundamentally, authentically decent doesn’t say “I’m going to be great to her, but take advantage of this other woman.”
“I picture this person you’re talking about like a big two year old, picking up women in his fat fist and sucking on them and deciding, pretty dollie! yucky dollie! and spitting out the “yucky dollies”.”
Magnolia, that is hysterically brilliant! Love it!
Magnolia, you said it sister!! Lisa, I said this before, but your former jackass sounds like a real nitpicker – I could be wrong, but what kind of person, after someone goes to the effort of losing a lot of weight, says that he preferred her heavier?! I want to find this guy just to say, “Sit DOWN son.” I metioned in another comment that I dated a guy (I won’t call him a man) that told me he would need to “upgrade” because he got a new job. I kid you not. This guy, when I first started dating him, could not rave enough about my looks. However, over that winter, I gained 3lbs. (yes, you read that right, THREE POUNDS) and he told me that he “couldn’t even remember what I used to look like”. What I’m trying to say is, you don’t know what went on with him and all these girls. You don’t even really need to wonder about it/why it was different with you, because the way that he treated you says everything about why he’s not worth taxing your brain over!
I should also add that this guy had a whole bunch of booty calls in his past that of course were around as “friends”. He had treated them as “less than” and I, as his girlfriend, got it even worse. You know they were sitting there saying “Why her and not me?”, whereas I was sitting there thinking, “WHY ME?!”
Hi Nat,
Thank you so much for your response. You are an amazing woman…anyone woman who can roll out advice as insightful as yours as well as working in the word dicksplash is someone I want to know.
I am not seeing him anymore. We have been NC for almost 8 weeks. He avoided making b-day plans with me after reassuring me that he was not pulling away. So, he basically jumped out of the plane but made me pull the cord.
There is still the lingering belief that he would be a better man for someone else (me not being able to separate his disinterest from his character). He seemed to be a better friend and son, cousin and boyfriend to his ex etc. than he was to me. It made me feel like he had the capacity just didn’t want to give it to me.
I understand the people ‘hide’ away models or other beautiful women but I know I am not one of those women so this knowledge + the narcissistic need for a status boost= that’s why he likely hid me away. I know that makes him small and that I should feel lucky that he didn’t parade me around like a show poney and then dump my ass or treat me callously but it’s the compounded impact of rejection I suppose (in my life). It builds a story that makes it hard for me to have a positive self-image. Sad to say, I am in counseling but these feelings, beliefs and fears don’t die easily.
Thank you so much for your support. Some words/ideas loosen the grip of my beliefs enough to give me some relief and it is much needed so thank you.
Thank you so much ladies for taking the time to share your similar experiences and respond. It always appeared to me that he treated others well (helping them move, feeding their pets when away, talking them through g-friend probs), even strangers better than me some of the time (likely didn’t want me to have expectations). His friends seemed so important to them and his well being.
I have seen pictures of some of his ex-girlfriends and most of them are not 9’s or 10’s, they were pretty. This makes me feel even worse, I mean I could understand mot measuring up if he only dated models but I couldn’t even live up to pretty. Some were a little thick (not necessarily the societal ideal) and he likes that so I feel that maybe he just needed someone who he thought was pretty and he didn’t feel that way about me. I got in too deep. It is soul crushing to love someone and think that the thing that stands between you and being able to be with them is how you look but I guess that’s how it goes. Many people never hook up for that reason, that is often what separates friends from lovers…it’s a big part of the way we choose a partner. It’s just the hopelessness I feel about ever finding a partner that I am as attracted to as I was him. It reinforced the notion that guys like him don’t date girls like me because they can do better. I know personality/soul matters too but there are a lot of pretty girls that have great personalities…why wouldn’t anyone want both? I feel like I have to come to the very harsh realization that some of us have less opportunity than others based on our attractiveness. To a certain extent it’s subjective but there is definitely some consensus about what people find beautiful. It kills me that he will be able to roll out and grab a gfriend in 5 minutes if he chooses that but I don’t feel I have that ability, it’s not my lived experience. We both have shit to sort out but when he does, he’ll be as good as gold, I may still be alone or accept a relationship with someone I don’t feel as attracted to as I would like so that I don’t have to be.
The slobbering 2 year old image was friggin hilarious and I could see it in some ways. I also feel like I saw a side of him that could love and I think he did love his ex. He was with her for 7 years so I know he has the capacity to commit to someone. Basically, I know I need to ‘walk away from the puzzle’ (very well put) but I am tying my head in knots trying to figure out how to do that and have a positive self image. This situation shattered what little self-esteem I had.
Oh boy when I was younger I was considered pretty but of course “I” didn’t know it ( Feel it) and always got dumped for girls not as pretty that had things like more money, a better family life, or knew about sports etc, ect .. Girl there is always “something” you can feel LESS about, always- it’s the Self – Esteem NOT the looks trust me – Many pretty girls get used to make the ex girlfriends jealous, get used as decoys.
But you know just like there is always something to feel LESS about – There is always something to feel MORE about and that’s what we all need to focus on and it’s all within us and we know it, It’s just scary to try on becasue we might make someone else not want to be around us if we are happy, I think it was taught.
Because many people around us are not/were not happy, We didn’t just magically out of nowhere get Self -Esteem issues.
Regardless of the people in the past or people around us now it’s TIME to do it for ourselves, Let them figure why they are so unhappy now, It’s no longer our jobs to make them feel less alone!
My friend said to me the other day that he thinks the guy I was with really liked his ego stroked, even more than his c&*k but if that was on offer he would take that too. I remember having thoughts/feelings that he would have sex with me because he loved my reaction or as some exchange for the ego stroking/support/therapy he got so when my friend said that, it really hit me in the gut. It’s so painful to see it now out of the situation. When in it, you are still getting some of the reinforcement/the hit (so addictive) of his attention however minimal so the denial is still very much alive. I find the pain of thinking that it was all so mercenary and calculated and involved no caring is crippling. I really think that in addition to hopelessness about the future, I don’t want to let go of this because I can’t bare the grief of what wasn’t and what will never be.
“I have seen pictures of some of his ex-girlfriends and most of them are not 9?s or 10?s, they were pretty. This makes me feel even worse, I mean I could understand mot measuring up if he only dated models but I couldn’t even live up to pretty. Some were a little thick (not necessarily the societal ideal) and he likes that so I feel that maybe he just needed someone who he thought was pretty and he didn’t feel that way about me.”
“It is soul crushing to love someone and think that the thing that stands between you and being able to be with them is how you look but I guess that’s how it goes. Many people never hook up for that reason, that is often what separates friends from lovers…it’s a big part of the way we choose a partner. It’s just the hopelessness I feel about ever finding a partner that I am as attracted to as I was him. It reinforced the notion that guys like him don’t date girls like me because they can do better. I know personality/soul matters too but there are a lot of pretty girls that have great personalities…why wouldn’t anyone want both? I feel like I have to come to the very harsh realization that some of us have less opportunity than others based on our attractiveness. To a certain extent it’s subjective but there is definitely some consensus about what people find beautiful.”
__________________________
I’m gonna be frank with you.
You’re mainly focused on the “fact” that the women that this asshat went for after you are better looking than you, and that tells me that you’re focused on shallow/superficial things also. I’d suggest going deeper than that, getting into the real painful grimy realizations, and focus on improving your INNER beauty. Although most of the world’s society brainwashes people into believing that only pretty/handsome people go places & get things in life, it’s mostly a farce. Hell, even some pretty/beautiful women thinks looks are overrated! They’d prefer to be recognized for their intelligence.
By the way, I have an ex-friend who I’ve mentioned on here quite a few times. She’s decent looking, but for the love of god, if she isn’t the dumbest idiotic moronic woman I’ve ever been friends with….. 😐 and she can’t have a healthy relationship to save her life. Don’t tell HER that though, because she always has men flocking around her.
In general, shallow/superficial aspects fade (or adjust according to age & health). Emotional (and other) intelligence in relationships lasts a lifetime.
Thank you for being so candid Spinster. I agree with you. I definitely need to spend some time building my inner resources, my emotional intelligence and relationship skills/habits. I do think though that it is easy for beautiful women to say/think that beauty is overrated because they have never had to deal with no having it. If everything in your life is going well but you don’t have a job, all you can focus on is getting a job. If you got it all, you don’t need to worry about it…you are free to think about other things. I suppose it goes both ways, no body wants to be like for only one thing. Both intelligence and beauty are just genetic characteristics, one is no more or less valuable than the other. Liking someone because they are smart or liking someone because they are hot are equally limited in focus.
‘Opt out of dating until you feel you’re equal from the outset’
This is brilliant relationship advice. Sometimes I think at the beginning of an unhealthy relationship you both try too hard….you get carried away by the physical effect they have on you,you try reciprocally to always look your best or practice sexy, witty, sparkling conversation. Sure, its great fun and lends to the mutual attraction but it takes a lot to keep up.
It’s actually draining not to be yourself and I’ve done it many times, in many different relationships.
I simply didn’t have the confidence to be myself.
I had ‘bolt on’ confidence (which for a while I thought was real.)
Recently, too recently, I’ve changed. As Natalie says in her selling analogy…if I ‘m selling something that’s not real then I ‘m offering a shady deal. It’s unfair to the other person.
I ‘m presently looking at current relationships, friendships, workmates etc and reflecting on how authentic I ‘m being towards others. I’m striving each day to be accepted as myself and fully expect to lose people from my life…but hopefully gain others.
That’s the path I have been known to go down; trying to get a man who is incapable of loving me in a healthy way and being in a healthy relationship to do just that. Recognizing that they have this basic dysfunction is like finding the missing piece to the puzzle for me. Here all along I thought it was me that was the cause of their behavior, that there was something wrong with me, that I was “unlovable” somehow, when in fact in reality it was about their limitations. I treated them with care, love and respect but they weren’t capable of treating me (or any woman) likewise, they just don’t have it in them. Like they say you can’t get blood from a stone. I am glad I learned that lesson once and for all finally. Thank you NML for pointing out that me trying to convince or get someone like this to love me is self abusive. It gets to the bottom of it for me, points me in the direction that I need to go which is to ask myself why do I do this to myself? And that I need to find out why so I can change that behavior so I can stop hurting myself and do what’s best for me.
I tried convincing and I know why I did it. I felt like this person might be my last good shot, and that I was running out of time. If not now, when? So I did it, knowingly, and it didn’t work (of course) and I feel even worse about myself. Plus, I still believe I might run out of time.
The situation with the xAC was a long process of convincing. The more he acted cold, the more I felt like I had to reshape myself, redefine myself, restructure myself. All this so he can see that I was the best match for him. Well after all that twisting and bending someone had to break – guess which one of us did?
It’s embarassing to look back and remember just how much I destroyed myself to fit what he wanted when what he wanted wasn’t clear in the first place. With EUMs and ACs, they don’t know what they want to begin with, so trying to convince them you’re what they want is a futile process.
When you love you and accept all that is you, you don’t need the validation or acceptance from an EUM or AC that you are worth it. We all have value, and we are all worth it! If these guys can’t see that from the beginning then it is their loss. Flush – NEXT.
Hi all, great article and comments. I know exactly where my desire to convince EU’s I’m worthy of their attention comes from…the first Mr. EU in my life…my father. It is time for the Unsent Letter to Daddy.
“I know exactly where my desire to convince EU’s I’m worthy of their attention comes from…the first Mr. EU in my life…my father. It is time for the Unsent Letter to Daddy.”
Thank you for this. It seems so obvious now, but I initially didn’t think of it this way. Holyheck, an Unsent Letter to Daddy – yikes, that will be one teary, painful letter, but I think you’re right. I’m sure that is indeed where my desire to convince my worthiness comes from. Ohmy, tears here….
Thank you too Natalie, and Ladies for sharing your stories. I’m reading them all and nodding in agreement. Hugs.
Hi Mango,
Natalie’s Unsent Letter Guidelines are brilliant if you decide to do it. I started mine yesterday and it was a teary, painful day. I’m hopeful that once I’m done and I burn it (rather than read it at his funeral), I can move on. I also started a “Patterns/Similarties” list. I was so struck by the things that happened with my father have been repeated in my relationships. It is totally eerie, particularly with my last relationship with a MM. I had to compete with my father’s job and his OW as a child and had to convince my father I was worthy of his attention. Then as an adult, I became the OW and began competing with his wife and his job, still trying to convince someone I am worthy of their attention. I’m thinking that maybe the person I need to convince is ME! One immediate upside to writing the Unsent Letter to Daddy: For some reason, I didn’t miss the exMM all day and I didn’t want to talk with him. Good luck to you. Here’s a tissue…
I need to post this before I read the other comments.
Maybe someone can help with this. When a relationship ends — I assume the guy is out having the most fun… that he doesn’t miss me… probably glad I’m gone… maybe I had bad breath anyway… blah blah blah. That’s what goes through my head. There have been times where I even checked up on the guy to see what he was doing.
Anyways — yes I do try to convince them that I’m enough. Yes I have low self esteem. Hence the thought process outlined above. I hate it and it’s painful but not sure how to correct the pattern either. I’m rather decent looking and (I think) fun. I like to camp and fish and dance and socialize. I’m clean, have a job, pay my bills. Yes I still have that lurking fear that I’m not enough. It’s sucks.
I am so guilty of this. Thinking of the last three men I was involved with. None of them were even that nice and not sure if I even really liked them. They weren’t outright MEAN but not considerate of me. Changed plans at the last minute, often too busy with other things to the point I felt I was the last option when they had nothing better to do. Yet I hung in there trying to show them how great I was. How patient and flexible and fun to be around – when they were around.
Pathetic really and I would keep this up until I got sick of it. Until I walked away and then I would obcess and worry that they were off merrily skipping down the lane with some other woman and treating her fabulously and doing all the things I had longed to do. I convince myself that must be what they are doing. Geesh… I need an intervention.
I read an article a guy wrote where he said that most men would rather be with a ‘7’ that had self esteem than a ’10’ who was insecure. Okay, he was valuing the self esteem but in my opinion is still putting pressure on women by ‘grading’ them. Somedays, I want to rebel and show up at a place where all the women are dressed up and wearing makeup, heels, etc. and parade around with hairy armpits and legs, no make up and wearing my most comfortable jeans and t shirt. Walk in with a smile on my face, 42 year old wrinkled face. Too many time I have let people who criticize my looks or my clothes get to me. I have tried to hard to be what everyone else thinks I should be for too long. It’s hard to shift but possible. Okay, this doesn’t mean I want to walk around with buggars in my nose and feel great about it, but I don’t want the validation of my worth placed on other people anymore.
If you think anyone has narcissistic tendencies – take a parachute and jump NAT said.
Well i would also like to add if you think someone has Sociopathic/Psychopathic tendencies, take a parachute jump and when you land, take the nearest, speediest vehicle you can find and never, ever look back!
Nat, your words are so true in every sense. I notice since I have started reading your blog I have really learned to listen to my gut and assess the man before proceeding. On recent dates I have spent more time observing and really listening to what the person is saying and less time trying to “sell myself “. Conducting myself from this vantage point coupled with your advice about dating as a discovery phase, has been really helpful.
Just today I got a email from a man I went on a date with last week. The day after the date he sent me a very complimentary email and asked if I would like to go to a concert on Thursday. Then today he sent an email saying “Somethings come up on Thursday” can’t make the concert, but am better for next week or the week after”.
Well, I think that email is too vague. I feel the respectful thing to do would be to give a reason why you can’t make the concert and suggest an alternative day to meet. This is what I would have done. I have not responded to the email yet, thinking about how to respond.
I do however notice that I don’t feel rejected, I just feel like this man is showing me who he is. I see this as an opportunity to learn how to practice “dating as a discovery phase”, rather than thinking that each time a date does not turn into something more it has something to do with me and my value…it doesn’t….I am being proactive in who I choose to have in my life, not reactive to insensitve ACs….flush!!
Lilylee
I had this happen, and the guy did follow through on a “this weekend or next week” comment (he was in the middle of moving). After one date, he doesn’t owe you an explantion of why he can’t make it. He at least was polite enough to tell you he couldn’t (it’s amazing how many don’t bother)! He could have proposed an alt day, yes. But propose one youreslf, go out again, and evaluate him from that point out.
Meagen 19,
I agree with you to a point, yes I could have suggested an alternative date, but it was the tone of the email that came across as a bit of brush off and quite vague. The day after the date he sent a warm email stating it would be nice to meet again and look forward to seeing you again etc…
At this point he doesn’t owe me an explanation, I agree, but the way someone communicates that they have to cancel is important…as I said, the tone of the email was kind of flippant…like..”can’t make it…might be better next week or after”. Reading the email, I got a feeling in my gut, like hmmm….make a little effort in the beginning to make time for date….I told him which nights I was available
At this point I am trying to assess character and integrity as I get to know someone….and it feels like a bit of a red flag when the person sends a super warm email…followed by a coolish one…feels a bit like blowing hot and cold….and this point in my life…I’m 46…..as Nat says….”I mean to start as I go on”…Thanks for your perspective though…
Lilylee
I don’t want to pull this off topic too much but: it was only one date. If he pulled this cool email routine after 5 dates or weeks/months of dating, I’d be worried. So maybe he’s only luke warm about you at this point; that doesn’t necessarily make him a potential AC/EUM. Maybe you are only luke warm about him, who knows. I understand your perspective because I’ve shared it: I won’t be screwed again so I’ll be extra cautious. But that can turn into hyper vigillence that excludes ppl based on the smallest thing. In MY case I aslo realized I was excluding men based on on little thing becasue I was EU myself and would jump on any perceived flaw. If you like him, give the guy one more shot and if your gut still feels the same then don’t see him again.
@Lily
Maybe I am too harsh – any particular reason he did not call to cancel? I think it’s rude to assume people check their email all the time. If I had to cancel – I call. Period. If the man is trying to date me he better call – I am not hiding behind email with anyone – especially in the beginning!! My opinion!
Hi Meagen,
I think you have a point. When you start to become cautious and don’t want to repeat past behavior you can become hyper vigilant.
I’m feeling lukewarm about him myself….but I still feel the tone of the email was a bit rude…and really don’t want to be with someone that doesn’t have similar values as me in that department….that was the problem with my last relationship. I felt like I was teaching him the basics aspects of manners…which I don’t want to do…I don’t want that responsibilty….
I would go on another date just to see, but I prefer to be a bit over cautious if I feel a similar feeling in my gut to what I felt in my past relationship..and I’m already feeling that….
I guess this is how you learn and eventually get to the middle.
We start off as over giving and having no boundaries and then when we start putting them in place we may be a bit hard with the first few men we date…Oh well, I figure it out…and if I’m not able, I’ll take a bit of break from dating until I have a better handle on it…
Thanks for your insights.
Aimee,
He has my number, but we started to communicate by email through a dating site. But before I met him for the first date I told him I would prefer to speak on the phone and gave him my number. After the first date, he emailed me through the dating site to ask if I wanted to go out again.
I am okay at this point with not talking on the phone…early days/first date…but if further dates happen, I prefer to communicate by phone…so we will see..
Thanks for your thoughts
lilylee. I say go with your gut.
Leisha,
I agree… going with your gut is the way to go….especially after gaining on this knowledge from Nat and this site….I see it as practicing what I have learned, instead of follow old patterns.
Thanks
OMG…did I really sit through watching the masters with him on TV…..pretending golf was really prime time viewing !!! Did I really text him from a party to let him know I was being chatted up…so he would ” realise ” how sexy and attractive I am , did I really offer to join weight watchers !!!!! ( I mean really …I’m a size 14 !)….so he would feel more ” comfortable” …cos quote…my ex wife size 8…. its what I’m used to …oh and she often wore no knickers ( thank the lordy I didn’t succumb to that one !!!! ) did I really pretend to love rare meat….and to like baking …err because he likes cake !!!… what !… and to cap it off did I really pretend that Come Dine With Me wasn’t my fave tv show…just because he hates reality tv…..my goodness…who did I become….I didn’t even know me anymore…no wait …..the best morph……” I can’t / won’t have sex with you until we know each other and are committed….” …..3 glasses of wine and a bit of fast forwarding / future faking….and ” take me I’m yours “…..2 days later….he disappears…….. and who feels like the FOOL ..certainly not HIM !!!
fitnessfreak, “did I really sit through watching the masters with him on TV”, funny! only because i recognize me doing the same things and it is so pathetic that it’s funny! did i really like to ride motorcycles and watch motorcyle shows with him? did i really offer to buy the popcorn at the movies while he went in to the movie so that he wouldn’t miss anything?? haha…. now that i look back on it, it really is pathetic!! we’re learning!
You are not alone here, fitnessfreak, I have done similar things it is handy list to have should a desire to contact take over and it also forces us to look at ourselves and think I won’t do that again.
I guess its all about turning the question around are they good enough and interested in enough in order for us to date them not about what can I change and what will my interests become in order for me to get them to stick around.
You do eventually get to the point when you see the assclown in your life as just that a real idiot time waster bringing nothing good to your life. When you are there and have stopped making excuses for them and selling yourself short, you simply come up for air and think “what the hell have I been doing travelling on a shit boat to hell city with this loser?”
The hopeless case who is no longer in my life explained his penchant for cheating on his fiancee like this: (taken directly from his text!)
“…you enjoyed playing with my entire life and existence so why shouldn’t I do by others as you have done by me”
Goodness I have never laughed so hard with disbelief! So I guess I was not just responsible for his bad behaviour during our relationship , but after our relationship ended but hey maybe I was even responsible for his bad behaviour and cheating on his fiancee. What a fuckwit! I mean can you credit it from a grown up man.
What I have learned from this is that whilst you are busting yourself being Ms Nice, Ms whenever-you-need-me etc you are not looking closely at whether actually they come up to your standards.
That guy’s total inability to see that he is responsible for his own life decisions and you can’t really try to pin your actions on someone else means no amount of chit chat can make this ugly baby look good! I certainly don’t convince him of my worthyness I rather think its the other way around! When you get to that point, you and the assclown are really done! You see them as they are and go “hell no!!”
“…you enjoyed playing with my entire life and existence so why shouldn’t I do by others as you have done by me”
Is he serious? 😐 So….. because he was bitten by a dog, if he sees an injured dog afterwards, he’ll kick it just because the attack dog bit him? And he’ll see more injured dogs after the 1st injured dog and kick them too? This is twisted scumbag non-responsibility victim/martyr thinking & behavior. Shaking my head in awe. 😐
I too cringe over the convincing that went on with me last year. It’s bloody embarrassing when I look back on it *face turns red*.
Have a few new rules and mottos now
1 – if a man is interested in me, I will know it
2 – don’t chase men, reciprocating interest is ok
3 – thanks to you Nat, if a man is half interested, I will also know it
Great post!! 🙂
As a man, let me just say that this cuts both ways! I was 2 months in with a great girl who has a lot of personal integrity and is really impressive in so many ways. Unfortunately, at 27 she had never had a relationship, and I should’ve seen this as the red flag that it was.
After our first “argument”, she bailed. I was frustrated and said some things that I regret (nothing hurtful, just questioning where our relationship was going based on mixed signals), but I prompty apologized and expressed a desire to work through the problem. I wanted to meet her where she was at, but she didn’t have any interest in doing the same for me.
You can imagine how quickly this devolved into me trying to CONVINCE her that the relationship was salvagable. I know I didn’t do myself any favors by backing off what I wanted: better communication and the mutual commitment to give the relationship a real shot. As NML says, you’re either in or out. The whole argument stemmed from me sensing that she had one foot out, and it turned out I was right.
In the end, I realize that where I fell short was in not owning my authentic self. I’m someone that values closeness, nurturing & good, healthy communication. I had actually been trying to hide these qualities because I sensed that she was not in the same place. I guess I sold myself short.
Yeah, that’s what Magdalena’s comment above gets to: that you bloody well sell yourself on the cheap when you’re paying big for someone else. It’s an awful feeling, that realisation. But it can be a huge positive: now you really do know or know again, from experience, what makes you, you, and what you’re looking for to live you with another.
@Boca Lupo
I love your name, it means ‘mouth of the wolf’ yes? 4 semesters of Italian and I have that to show for it. My professoro would be so proud [not!] I know my strengths and foreign language is not one of them! You sound like you did all the right things..but w/the wrong person. I hope you know that.
“My guy always hid me away, would not show public displays of affection and went to lengths to avoid me meeting his roommate. I don’t think I have ever felt this ugly…thinking about that makes me cringe. I have to wait to find a guy who doesn’t care about dating someone pretty? That hurts.”
Wow, I could’ve written this. This is exactly what mine did to me, except it wasn’t just his roommate that he couldn’t introduce to me, it was everyone, his family, friends, etc. I don’t think he ever told anyone that he was with me. Why did I accept it?
Hi Moon,
Ya, I didn’t meet any of those other people either. No one. Once I asked him about it and he said if I hadn’t pushed so hard, maybe I would have by now. He also said that he had ‘bad experiences’ doing that in the past and doesn’t want to do it again. He said he likes to keep things separate and that’s just who he is and I can either accept it or not. He said that if we ever lived together, they would meet me because they came over and I would just be there. He didn’t take kindly to me asking about this especially more than once…it made him irritated/angry. He was like that when he was cornered. I wanted to believe these excuses because if I didn’t it meant I had to leave and lord knows I didn’t want to do that. I felt privileged to be with him and I still didn’t want to give up on the dream that one day I would be his girlfriend and meet these people gradually. It was never going to happen. I know it hurts tremendously then and now, now even more so because the denial has lifted some. I feel ya.
Lisa,
He did the exact same to me, whenever I would ask about it he would get angry and tell me he couldn’t tell them because then they would all ask questions and make fun of him. He used to talk about marrying me and when I would ask how could he marry me if he didn’t want anyone to know he was with me, he said that we could run away in secret and get married! Don’t ask me why I didn’t run then. I should have have run years ago. He always said the reason he couldn’t tell anyone about me was because I was older than him but he’s just got together with a new woman who is almost as old as me, they’ve been together just a few weeks and he’s already flying her back to meet his parents and take her to their summer house (somewhere I never got to see). This has upset me immensely. This blog is really the only thing getting me through this at the moment. 🙁
Hi Moon,
I know, it is so painful. Sometimes it helps me to think of times where I felt appreciated and desirable. I try to remember that ‘one man’s trash is another man’s treasure’ (my apologies, extremely demeaning choice of words but you get the intended meaning). Nothing takes the pain and hurt away for me completely but sometimes little thoughts like that take a bit of the sting out. My heart is with you on this journey…I get sucked into the black hole or what I know call the ‘vortex’ when I start obsessing about the ‘story’ with the guy but sometimes little things help me crawl and see a crack of light. Hope that helps. This is my lifeline too.
Hi Moon
He’s full of ish.Please read Nat’s article where they try to place the blame on ‘you’. I think it was in April or May in the archives.
I heard ‘if you’d trusted me more’ [..I’d have been the bigger fool]. I only ever called him on bad behavior, that’s what
he considered a deal breaker.
Take a look at Halle Berry & Jennifer Aniston, John Mayer & Hill Harper. Perfect examples of attractiveness….. and no one standing with either of them as a relationship equal. It’s never as simple as wishing/hoping/pining for so-called beauty, which is always in the eye of the beholder anyway.l
Sing it to yourself – “I am what I am and what I am needs no excuses..or convincing”.
I saw a key chain with the words “I am not sorry” embroidered. I wish I had bought it to remind me that I do not have to apologize for who I am and my existence. Often when speaking to others there is a worry in me that frets over whether what I am saying is disrespectful or offensive to them. There have been instances where I had said something someone didn’t take too well (totally innocent on my part since there was no ill intent behind whatever it was I said). How do I maneuver that, being overly conscientious of other people’s feelings. But, I think I should have purchased the darn key chain!
It occurred to me that working to convince someone to like/be with/stay with you is the flip side of future faking (though perhaps more self-destructive). Either way, both people are promising something that isn’t fully real for the sake of getting someone to do or be something they want. Manipulative either way!
This article also made me think about a post break-up conversation I had with the Transitional ex, in which he said “I am realizing that when I get close to someone I end up pushing them away and that I’ve been doing this for a very long time.”
So the reasons our we didn’t work didn’t really have much to do with me, how great of a girlfriend I am, my worth, appeal, etc. after all! No amount of convincing (or patience) can get someone who doesn’t want/can’t handle a close, committed relationship to suddenly become a partner they’ve never been nor demonstrate capabilities they’ve never had.
It’s funny, when he said that about pushing partners away when they get too close I realized that I do that too, unless the person I’m with isn’t available–in which case I hold on for dear life… It’s all becoming so painfully clear, even if he gets his act together, sorts through his baggage, and addresses his EU issues I’ll still be stuck with mine. Whatever he does, I’m hoping it’s not as grueling learning how to deal with my own eu issues as it’s been admitting I have ’em!
@Izzybell
“This article also made me think about a post break-up conversation I had with the Transitional ex, in which he said “I am realizing that when I get close to someone I end up pushing them away and that I’ve been doing this for a very long time.”
OMG! I heard nearly the exact same words come out of my EUM’s mouth!! Do they buy a book of quotes?? Yes whether he said this to spare my feelings or not, I took it as I was not the problem beyond wanting something he could not/would not give.
Off topic, I am actually having a hard time w/what I’ve heard referred to as ‘anniversary grief’. I think about last year when we..ok, “I” was trying to get ‘us’ to work. Now the end is so very final and I accept that the only way out is through. But the reality of never, ever even hearing his [whiny] voice has become overwhelming and I am confused where this is coming from?? But I am staying the course.
Thanks Natalie … I needed to read this today. I am of the habit of convincing others to love me – which is crazy because sloooowly, I’m learning that, in me, there is lots to love! When you feel unlovable, it is easy to over-do it to feel loved. Just wish I could turn my heart off sometimes and let things be. It’s really hard when you’re lonely and hope seems like a dirty word.