Recently, I joked on Facebook about how a Mr Unavailable kept saying “It is what it is” in a conversation where he’d asked me to explain why his ex wouldn’t speak to him anymore. Incidentally, I told him I imagined that it was the secret long-distance girlfriend amongst other things. As he kept repeating the phrase, I thought, What the frick is this guy talking about? In the end, I laughed and said, “Er, isn’t it that it is what it isn’t?”. After all, this guy had repeatedly reminded her that their own relationship wasn’t a relationship, plus he had no real explanation for his actions.
After years spent trying to decode ambiguous statements (and non-statements), staring at text messages and emails trying to work out strategically placed dots, emoticons and soons, and searching for ‘hidden’ meanings when I was dating, I’ve come to realise that when people say and write this stuff, they’re fobbing you off while excusing themselves from looking too deeply at their own actions.
“So you’re basically saying that you don’t want a relationship?”, you ask after they start bleating about being “afraid of hurting you” (consider this advance warning). Or maybe they say how they just want to “see how things go” and not “label things” or even “I don’t think I’m ready for a relationship”.
Then they come back with “I don’t want to stop spending time with you” (code for “I want to keep you as an option”. Or “I like you a lot” (code for “Be flattered by my liking you instead of focusing on what I said preceding this“), and “I just need time to figure things out” (buying time on your time). You go your own way, but they continue hovering around. They’re up in your business and basically showing apparent interest even though you’ve said you’re not interested in casual. You cave; you go out again, maybe sleep together. And then when you ask what’s going on, it’s “I’m not in a position right now to start a relationship” or “You know my situation“.
Granted some of these things may be nice to hear in the moment. Still, if you’re asking what’s going on and they’re coming back with “Stop pressuring me” (What? By asking a question?) or “Why ruin things?” (Having a discussion ruins things?) and other such guff, you can actually learn a lot about where that person is (even if they won’t admit it) and where you stand with them.
It’s funny how you’re both grown-ups when they want to sleep with you but when you want emotions and commitment they’re no longer big enough for it and even start claiming ’emotional hardship’.
A standard line from someone who’s likely still in a relationship with someone else or has a list of excuses as long as their arm for why they’re effectively expecting you to manage down your expectations. When you know their situation is something they keep using to excuse themselves from stepping up and being honest, flush.
That would either be nowhere or knee-deep in a shady relationship. What they’re not doing is being specific about where “at” or “are” refers to. This is a real player-playa line and you’re also likely to hear it from someone who can be quite intimidating. It’s a back off statement and you’re likely to be afraid to pursue your line of inquiry. Someone who you’re in a mutual relationship with would not dismiss and dodge.
When you look at where you’re flowing to, it’s nowhere. They also mean “Let’s just go with my flow” which is code for “This has to be on my terms” which is code for a driver in an unavailable relationship. The best way for you to flow your way out of this situation and into a better relationship (with someone else) is to FLUSH.
Think of this as code for “I know that technically this means that you/we should end it or that you should even tell me to take a run and jump. However, I’m hoping that if I say something ambiguous like this, that you’ll fill the space with excuses, some betting on potential and some sex and ego stroking in a casual relationship. And whatever I said preceding this, I’ll use as a defence and responsibility when you call me on it.” It can also be, “Please do my dirty work for me and end it so I don’t look like the bad guy here”.
There’s half-speak, non-speak, information you ‘kinda’ know (you do know but don’t want to trust your gut) but you’re waiting for them to fill in the gap. It’s mismatched actions and words, and no doubt your own head is about to pop off with smoke coming from it while you spend lots of your mental time and energy trying to work out what the hell things mean or what’s going on.
What I do find fascinating is that when you’re dealing with someone who uses the non-speak of ambiguous and sometimes ridiculous statements to halt discussion and essentially dodge what could be an on-the-level, emotionally mature conversation irrespective of the outcome, they’re often selective. So they have no problem articulating themselves when they want something from you or can articulate themselves in other areas of their life, but when they’re in a shady situation, often of their own making, they’ll keep throwing crumbs of communication.
Whatever you interpret it as, when they need a line of defence they’ll say that it’s you that got the wrong end of the stick and “misunderstood” things.
The best thing that you can do in these situations is to be very clear in your own communication both verbally and in your actions (including boundaries) because really, someone who will speak to you in this manner is actually helping to talk you out of the relationship. “What does that mean?” will also flush out what they’re alluding to or at least flush out that they’re talking out of their bottom. Really, when you hear these BS statements masquerading as weak excuses for forthcoming inconsiderate and shady behaviour, your BS alarm should start ringing. Loudly.
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For me, the most relevant post evah! Thank you so much, Nat, for stripping the BS and spelling it out so superbly!
Wow this is exactly what I needed to read!! Several months ago, I met a guy that I felt an amazing connection with. On our 3rd date, he made it a point to tell me that he was just getting out of a long-term relationship and that he didn’t want any “expectations”. He couldn’t really explain what he meant by that, but he assured me that he was only dating me but he only wanted to “date”. My guard immediately went up, and I decided to not sleep with him until he gave me a good reason to let my guard down. After 5 dates or so, he started to pull a slow fade and eventually stopped contacting me. After 2 weeks of no contact, he calls me out of the blue and nervously explains that he was starting to feel like he was falling back into a relationship and that he needed to be able to see other people. For months after that I wondered if things would have been different if I had just slept with him, but reading this validates my decision to keep my boundaries.
Kim,
Smart!! You listened to what he was saying, not what you wanted to hear.
Good call!
ick Kim.
The few times in life when I have had a grown man tell me that he did not want “expectations” foisted on him, whether mine, another woman’s, my friend’s…it just made me feel a bit disgusted.
translation: ‘I don’t want anyone expecting anything from me, yet of course I will have expectations and those are totally acceptable because they are mine, but I won’t reveal them because then you will be able to see how selfish I am. These are ( pick one or several) to be able to take a woman out, to look socially acceptable and desirable, to be able to have sex when I want with a woman who is nice enough to be in a relationship with but who I have on ice, to be able to disappear because I have warned you beforehand, to change my mind and commit if only I want to, to not have to basically act like a man but instead, to be given the permission to be Peter Pan and never grow up….ick. Such a key phrase from some types of people…
dancingqueen,
You are so dead-on with your translation of “no expectations”. He wanted control over the situation, and either started to feel out of control because he wasn’t getting what he wanted from me or he was just not that into me. Either way, I’m at peace with it because I think I made the right choice of taking things super slow. Come to think of it, he never asked me what I was looking for in dating and relationships, which is another red flag that he was trying to steer away from the topic as much as possible. Also, he told me multiple times from the start that it was “ok” if I dated other people. Another huge red flag.
Yeah Kim you did the right thing. After I had been about 18 months out of my 5 year EUM relationship I finally felt ready to meet someone and open to a relationship. I went on a date with a guy who I had a great night with, had a little kiss at the end of the night, then he pulled the same thing. Said he was just out of a 10 year relationship and wanted to “just date different people”. Of course at that point we weren’t exclusive but to hear that upfront was a shock, even though I was certainly dating different guys too. I was disappointed, but thought, it’s about timing to an extent, but no point wondering if things were different at another point in time.
They tell you who they are. Good you held strong on your boundaries Kim. The right guy won’t do that to you. xx
Bellaninha,
Don’t you wonder why they chose to be so up front about their situations? You would think they would want to keep this info to themselves to increase their chances of getting laid! The funny thing was that the same night after he told me he didn’t want any expectations, he tried getting me to sleep with him and joked about how it was “the 3rd date after all”. Seriously?? Ughh.
Thank you so much Natalie. Your timing of this post is just like…the right time. Three months ago I walked away, no I ran away from a narcissistic assclown after I discovered his ‘double’ life he was leading. We had these talks, just as described above, he was future faking and all, I felt it, sensed but didn’t act upon it. Sensing code amber alerts actually all along… ( not listening to that little inner voice) But as soon as I asked about us he became misty all of a sudden, where as normally he knew exactly what to say. Then I discovered (in a b-movie kinda way) that he was playing me big time and I flushed im-me-dia-tly. I confronted him and he had no where to go. Also since that night I did no contact, only one text after lots of texts from him and trying to call me yadayadaya telling him to leave me alone. He didn’t. I remained no contact. It was rough sometimes also cause I was so angry and still so in disbelief sometimes. And still thinking sometimes if I wasn’t too harsh. But wow, it was the only way. The ONLY. I have some remorse that I didn’t listen to myself earlier, when some bells started ringing. But I guess that was my biggest lesson to learn from this…Your site and words have helped me so much. Again thank you, you are a blessing.
Hats off to you for maintaining no contact. Much respect to you for drawing the line and sticking to it even in doubt.
Nat, if you continue to post articles like this, men aren’t going to get laid.
HA!
ah if that were only true, but unfortunately, the only men this will reach don’t need the advice on here, as they are already normal;) No, there will always be fbgs to come up behind the strong women and put up with crap…and enable this lameness to continue lol. Oh well, maybe this will change some of this new ‘hooking up” dating culture..
Nat: I beseech you, KEEP writing articles like this!!!
Heather…that was really funny. Maybe it will take them NOT getting laid to start acting like men, not petulant, spoiled 3 year old brats! And then things will be better for everyone. 😀
Okay, that one made me howl. Can you imagine what will happen if these guys don’t get laid? Maybe the world will explode?
Well, at one point in history it must´ve been like that. Men only getting laid when they had to pay for it… that must´ve been the only time when they were considerate and mature.
That’s a pretty thorough tutorial on how to read the specific signs of what you call “ambiguity” but what others call “ambivalence” (ambiguity being a handmaiden of ambiguity, I think).
One thing I used to hear continuously was “Can’t we just live for now, in the moment, and see how things go?”
On one hand, that strikes me as the equivalent of “Let’s just go with the flow,” but on the other hand it could be a reaction to what you call “fast-forwarding” (the rush through or past a reasonable getting-to-know-each-other period toward a more fantasy-type relationship). But as time passes and you keep hearing about staying in the present without any consideration for the future, then I think it becomes about maintaining relationship ambiguity for someone who is ambivalent about truly moving forward.
makes me feel a sad realisation of what is now leaving my life for good. 2.5 years of this and abuse on all counts xxx Thank you Nat and all contributors for enabling me to find you at 1 year into it, taking 1.5 years to see the light and get the strength to know WHY I was choosing different and not CRAZY XXX <3
So when my off more than on relationship ended, he ended it, three months ago, he has played the ‘i miss you’ with zero action card… ‘i dont want to live my life without you’ but doing guess what…nothing about it and even an I live you here and there.
Last week he yet again said he cannot be friends, needs to move on, it was all such a mess (blah blah blah – he’s like the boy who cried wolf, ever so dramatic), I accepted what he said and respected it. I was going to give it 8 days. 8 days would have been the longest he’d not contacted me for so I guess if he left it for 8 days, id accept he meant what he said as he always drops a text within 7 days after the ‘this is it, its over’ toys out of the pram drama.
But guess what…. It was his 29th birthday on Saturday and like a good ex girlfriend, I did NOT text him or call, even though id had a few drinks and it was on my mind, I did not submit (massive well done me).
However, the Sunday I receive a long ‘my birthday was rubbish, no one contacted me, even my mum forgot…so the decision i made wasnt exactly the life of riley’.
Ok. I replied with ‘im sorry that you didn’t have a good birthday but you’ll have better days’.
It dragged on. Eventually i asked him outright what it is he wanted and his response was ‘save me the hassle and go back to the first message’.
Ambiguous, yes, an answer to a straightforward question, no.
I have absolutely no idea what he wanted.
Its day four again and in the back of my mind, im waiting for the nothing text to arrive. He thinks he’s stopping me from moving on im sure but had he thought to ask a single question about ME, he would know that since we split, I’ve decided to move 10,000 miles away, join the gym at full force and get my life in an order i am happy with.
I think i honestly needed the wake up call this relationship turned out to be.
Another full of shit future faker, crumb feeding, selfish MANBOY and the straw that broke the camels back.
Im that camel and im actually grateful for it, made me open my eyes to the fact i wasnt happy with my life in general and i am responsible for that, not him.
Rant over but as my mother has always said and I’ve ignored her wisdom until now:
‘if someone shows you who they are, you better believe them’
Xxx
Sarah,
I’m sorry, but why are you in contact with this guy? He has proven time and again that he is a waste of time. but you continue to respond? He lives 10,000 miles away, it’s time to let go.
allison, i have not moved yet. he lives ten mins from me currently.
i also owe the douchebag money from the relationship where once in his life he helped someone else out. I am trying to be careful not to rile him as i have concerns that pushing too far with pissing him off may result in an ‘i want my money back right now’ situation. i have two weeks left until payday and the final payment to him. then i intend on changing my number and stopping contact altogether.
but please note that i never initiate contact.
i cannot for the life of me think what he gets out of this, there has since the breakup, never been any sex, casual or not and only negative attention.
if im honest though, i feel sorry for him i guess. i can honestly say that the man is near enough two different people in a 5 minute period, a complete jeckyl and hyde but he knows to show just enough of the kind man i thought he was to push my buttons.
i have let go, i do not contact him and i certainly do not offer sex, sympathy or anything else his ego may require.
he has a sorry for himself attitude since the break up but the decision he made was his to make and mine to accept..
Sarah, Sweety, stop. He is sending out tentacles to see if you are still emotionally connected. They are hard to resist, I know that. You might be lonely and scared for the future, and want to let him know YES I AM OUT HERE. Just don’t. As soon as he gets your response, you are back on ice. That’s the cycle. Signal, ice. Signal, ice. My ex-MM does the same thing, having moved from, ‘I am lying here thinking of you,’ to ems relating to my career: good wishes that an event will go well for me, congratulations if it did, how much respect he has for my talent. It’s all the same: “Let me know you are still out there so I can put you on ice.” Let it go, let it go.
I understand you’re reasoning, re: owing the money, etc. And I’m glad to know you have a plan to move and go 100% NC.
I’d be careful about the “feeling sorry for him” bit though. Yes, it’s a natural, and in most cases healthy response. Ummm, but with these types of people, manipulative, etc., they are fully aware of what they are doing and choose to do what they do.
You feeling sorry for him sounds a little bit like you’re letting him off the hook a bit because he is these two people and it must be horrible to live that way. Yes it is horrible, but even if he was a fully diagnosed sociopath or narcissist, the fact is they still know right from wrong, they still know how what they do effects people, they choose to do it anyway (negative or positive attention.)
Because they CAN and they get off on toying with people.
I just think its really sad.
One if the things he said to me was ‘youre so nice, I can see why people have taken advantage if you before but I would never do that’.
He lied.
I know what I need to do and I am doing that.
The list of all the red flags came out after the break up, things I would never have dreamt that person capable of: selling drugs, on steroids (I had an inkling), a (in his own words) ‘history if violence’ although he said that was when he was in the army. Spiteful and dramatic and i didnt sew that in him. Its been months and the biggest lesson i needed to learn honestly so im not sad i went through it.
My feelings were my feelings and ill not down play that i fell in love with a great guy, i did but it wasn’t him, it was a charade, or him at his best in show.
And what i think is sad is that he wasn’t capable of being that full time.
Im nice full time, im loving and kind, strong and opinionated and not weak. Considerate and caring. Full time, im one person and ill never let someone make me doubt myself again when I’ve worked bloody hard to not be bitter or hardened by my past.
I see my value, he did not and it is his loss.
Thank you, this is all what i needed to hear, two weeks and i owe him nothing xxx
One if the things he said to me was ‘youre so nice, I can see why people have taken advantage if you before but I would never do that’.
I know this one, son’s dad always used to say things like that and get very upset on my behalf whenever I reeled off my collection of Entertaining Stories About People Treating Me Badly. (I no longer keep these in my repertoire, btw – they aren’t funny!)
It occurs to me, though, that it’s the sort of thing that people would only notice if they had a tendency to take advantage. Like inviting a burglar to your house and having him look around and say “Wow, you’ve tons of nice stuff. And that lock on your door isn’t very strong”.
Someone without burglarish tendencies wouldn’t even notice – they’d just admire your house and maybe want to spend more time there, and show you their nice stuff in return – which is probably very similar to yours, so to speak.
I also have a lot of nice qualities that I’m proud of and I’m not prepared to get rid of, but I’ve got better locks on my doors these days and I don’t admit people who are clearly casing up the joint.
It is sad, but there’s nothing you can do about it – they are HIS choices. You can choose not to steal. You can also choose not to take advantage of other people’s sympathy, kindness, listening ear and care when you know you’ve no intention of returning the favour. Those are issues for him to sort out.
As for you, even before you’ve repaid the money you’ve every right to evict this thief from your house – ie, don’t pay any attention to his emails or calls or texts or anything. Owing money doesn’t obligate you to even feign an interest in his attention-seeking tactics. When I’ve owed money to the bank it hasn’t given the manager the right to ring me up and rant at me about their broken washing-machine.
Lots of hugs, though, it does feel rubbish 🙁
Yoghurt,
That is a great analogy! I would like to take it a step further and ask you: What would the following situation mean? You invite someone to your house and the person says: wow, your locks are not very strong, but your stuff is not very nice, the couch is worn, the floor can use some vacuuming, you better do something or not only no one will visit you, but no one will even want to steal from you! (I guess it could be followed by: but since I am here already, you can cook for me and entertain me for a while…)
I never got that – I always had “Ooo, your house is soooo nice and soooo pretty, shame that I just don’t want to be in it and dislike it for no apparent reason”.
In the case that you’ve described, though, I guess that the best response would be “Get out of my house then, rude burglar-type person” Easier said than done though, innit? I’d probably end up saying “Oh, well as you’re clearly the last house-guest that I’ll ever have in my disgusting house, I shall just have to treat you really really well”.
Ha, ha, ha , ha, Yoghurt, you just made me so laugh! Right on! (This particular one was a psychologist. Ewww.)
God I love your writing. This is all SO true and I ran up against it with such frustration and heartbreak, in my last major relationship.
“It is what it is, we knew that going in.” What? I somehow knew he was misrepresenting himself, from the start? No, I don’t accept that. And I hate that the old me just swept that statement under the rug every time, that for so long I didn’t hold him accountable.
At least by the end, I was giving Truth back to BS like, “It was an impossible situation for me.” I reminded him he CHOSE to enter the situation and that he’d CHOSEN not to put a stop to it, despite hearing over and over again it was causing me pain. Yes, it was apparently impossible – for him to do the right thing, that is – and he CHOSE not to make changes that would have made it better for everyone but himself. And I told that douchebag that he was getting flushed for his blame-shifting (or let’s call it blame-dodging, as he wasn’t particularly putting it on me, but acting as if it was some inanimate bad luck that settled over him, forcing him to simultaneously string two women along). We weren’t even a couple by then, but I couldn’t possibly be his “friend” and listen to excuses and non-excuses for his behavior during the relationship that had hurt me so much. There was no way he was going to ever feel he’d successfully justified himself, or that he could have any part of me on any level, after what had gone on.
It’s true, I still miss the man he was in his best moments, I do wish he’d changed (or been who I’d taken him to be, in the first place). But he didn’t, and I finally accepted what he showed me about himself. I got very clear in my head and my heart that he was a source of hurt and needed to be 100% out of my life. And there he remains, and will remain.
OMG!! These are exactly the SAME excuses…comments….my Ex made to me. Ugghhghhh….I cannot believe the one that He didn’t want to stop seeing me or liked me alot!!!
Again…I wish I found you years ago, but so grateful I found you now!! You need to be on EVERY talk show world wide for your insight and wisdom!!
Great!!!!!
If ever some one needed to hear that it’s me. I have and still spend time with a man who says these things on a daily basis. I feel like I am frozen in the non- relationship and for some stupid reason hang on thinking maybe this year will be the one. I wish I had the strength self esteem and what ever it takes to break away. I already know it will be another year of holidays alone because he will be with his roommate. Ummmm yeah right he supports her in every way possible. And as he always says. There is no compromise it’s his way because he doesnt Want to upset her by telling her he found some one finally. It’s a pack of lies how do I get strong enough to walk
Put one foot in front of the other and start walking. Take it just a day at a time and know that you are destined to a life of misery if you continue to stay on your current path. I was with a jerk like this and then got sick and THEN he left COMPLETELY when I really needed help. Honestly it hurt my health literally and if I’d made a better choice of “partners” I’d have had moral support recovering which was actually really important in my situation. It’s hard to even explain how important the choice of a good ‘mate’ is. FAR more important than you may realize today. Don’t take the short end of the stick today because it’ll just keep getting shorter and shorter. Take it from someone who knows.
J, you just DO it. And know that just like breaking any bad habit, it’s not one choice. It’s a million choices. Every day. Every moment.
Are you really more afraid to be alone than with someone who doesn’t love or value you? Because he doesn’t. Not really. He’s LIVING with another woman, for god’s sake, and even if he’s not sexing her, she’s his first priority.
Love yourself more than you love him. Stand up for yourself. And don’t think you can be friends with him; he has to be gone. Or you’ll want him back. How you find the strength is you just find the inner big sister, or mom, or whatever protective self you can find, and let her take over your actions.
Alone at the holidays? You don’t have a boyfriend anyway, then … you’re losing nothing and have so much to possibly gain by letting yourself be open to someone new (someday).
The strength is in you and the choice is yours to make. There’s never going to be a perfect time or a good moment. Like Nike says, ‘Just do it.’
The thing that stopped me for a loooong time was afraid of being alone. I convinced myself it was better to be with anybody, even if they weren’t 100 percent in, than to be sitting around by myself. I can tell you it’s not going to be easy but it’s definitely worth it. I have SUCH a better time on my own, doing the things I want to do (without his negative feedback about everything buzzing in my ear). Maybe write a list of the things that are keeping you in the situation and really think about them. You’ll find that the reasons for staying are really just excuses!
Btw–you are never alone. There are plenty of friends and family to support you, and the great BR community cheering you on 🙂
Oh my, my my. My poor naive self. Actually screw that. I was naive but I ended up being so much stronger than I knew. My ex unavailable said,”I’m moving and if things are going good, I want to take you with me.” Like I’m his carry on kitten or something. Then when I called him out on blowing cold he said, “I’m moving and I’m afraid I’m going to hurt you.” My reply, “I want to breakup. Take me home.” He did I quickly gave him his things, said goodbye, shut and locked the door behind him, initiated and initiated no contact. I AM NOT AN OPTION for this unavailable bullshitter. I’m JUST NOT. I AM NOBODY’S OPTION OR FALLBACK GIRL any more. I WILL BE SOMEONE’S FIRST CHOICE OR NO CHOICE. I WILL BE SOMEONE’S TOP PRIORITY OR NO PRIORITY….BUT I WILL ALWAYS BE MY TOP PRIORITY. Just because my parents/caregivers bullshitted me and didn’t properly love me, does NOT mean I have to put up with it now. Especially from some MAMA’S BOY ASSCLOWN. Thanks Natalie for all you do and write that helps us ladies see the light, truth and our worth. You’re a godsend.
Jennifer, I know that you are pissed but seriously your post made me laugh; say it sister! You sound so strong!
I think “boyfoetus” might be more in keeping for a dude like that…I feel the same way.Never will I put up with indecision or child games.
I told that to my sister-in-law during my last breakup. I declared loudly after one too many margaritas “I am *not* expecting my bf to make up for my past with my lame, passive-aggressive, neglectful dad, but I *refuse* to accept someone who is only going to reopen those wounds. They need to either be a man and in my life or not be a man and out of my life!”
It is funny, for the first time I think she got it. She and my bro just celebrated their 20th year involvement and 16 years of marriage and her view on men has really changed. She used to put up with that sort of wishy-washy talk from my bro and now she sees how unacceptable it is. He is an okay guy but he is so my dad’s son…
Please please please let me not encounter another boyfoetus lol….
Groan. This hits so close to home, but I need to hear it.
These were the non-speak comments that I routinely got from the AC:
“I don’t know what the future holds.” (when I attempted to discuss a future)
“But I like spending time with you.” (in a pleading voice, when things were looking dire)
“I care for you.” (when pushed to say how he felt)
“I’m glad you don’t define yourself by a relationship” (at the beginning – first red flag I ignored)
And when I finally ended it, a mutual friend told me his response to the break-up was: “(shrug) It is what it is.”
Flakey, noncommittal, indifferent and a complete assclown to the end.
Oh, and when he moved on and the girl after me dumped his ass, I hear through the grapevine he said: “It reached its natural conclusion.”
None of their words mean anything! It’s a waste of precious brain power to attempt to decode any of their b.s.
Why oh why did I waste two years with that loser?
Ah, “It is what it is”. The battle-cry of the !’Free Spirit’!. Bloik.
Fab post, Natalie! Thanks 🙂
Love this post Natalie!! Every woman needs to read this! We put way too much time, energy and thought into ambiguous men…but that’s just what they want…for things to be on their terms. Thanks for writing in ways that resignate with us women!! You’ve truly made me stronger!
So accurate in sooo many ways. I heard that – “it is what it is” the phrase started on Wall Street to describe how traders feel when the market doesn’t go the way they wanted it to! There will BE ASSCLOWNS forever….but we have Natile and all of her Powerful Knowledge…..Yeah!!!
Ohmygod, the “we’re adults” dudes (or, more accurately, duds) are my personal favorite, because they are the “adults” that are most likely to run away in hysterics like preteens that have just been meangirled at the mall if someone expects them to, you know, act right. Oy, assclowns, they are the most pesky, hypocritical little creatures!
Let me assure anyone who is hurting from dealing with an EUM/AC that there will come a time when you think of how they acted and you will laugh. At them. Loudly. You may even snort. When I came to BR, I was all kinds of a hot mess over a dude that basically jerked me around for five years and whose assholery was often jaw-dropping. Dude is now a non-factor. (For Basketball Wives fans, yes, I would also call him a non-motherf*cking factor.) You will get there – I promise.
Natasha,
While reading your first statement I was reminded of something… I once told a precocious 22-year-old innocent that the “We’re both adults” saying is simply an EXCUSE to behave in inappropriate ways. At the time I had been referring specifically to making sexual decisions…
My problem is that I *know* the answers. Applying them to my life, however… well… let’s just say I’m trying harder than ever — thanks to Baggage Reclaim.
My most recent AC seemingly wanted to break me down on a few levels, even if he were unaware of it (which I doubt). The fact that he is/was probably aware of it with his big ol’ intellectual self makes the reality that much worse.
I walked away (after he pushed me away) six months ago, and I’m feeling better. Some days, like yesterday, however, I feel terrible… like maybe he was right about me… and there is something wrong with me… it is especially difficult to fight the urge to take this route since I have growing, yet shaky, self-esteem.
BUT I keep on trying to keep the mess behind me and feel better about the woman that I actually am and not apologize for my identity — also thanks to Natalie and everyone here on BR. As all have stated, it is not at all easy, and sometimes you have to take it one MINUTE at a time.
I couldn’t agree more that it’s a minute-by-minute thing and I think it’s a really smart way to go about getting back on track. Sometimes we can give ourselves a hard time, like, “Now that I’ve identified that he’s a jackass, I should be 100% over it THIS INSTANT.” and then wind up feeling bad about that too. This is why I’m really, really proud of you for being kind to yourself and giving yourself the credit you deserve for keeping at it. This loser tried to break you down, but you were too strong for him! That’s pretty freakin’ impressive.
Keep doing what you’re doing and, as I said before, it’s all going to be worth it. If there’s one thing I wish I could go back in time to tell my post-AC self when I was just starting out, it’s, “Get excited, because you are on your way to such a happier future!”
Brilliant Post!! Incitful. Although have realised that I need to wait a bit longer before I get back into a relationship as I was tempted to use a few of these excuses recently…I am obivously not quite ready!
The thing for me that really hits home is that if you can muster the strength to go No Contact, and you don’t hear from them, they know you have figured out their bullshitting ways. Ambiguous conversations are so they don’t ever have to be accountable for anything–it’s their exit plan that you get ahead of time. Crimson flag, women! I was SO smitten with someone, but 6 mos.ago went absolute NC. Guess what? I have heard nothing but the sound of crickets chirping…which I might add, is a much more beautiful sound than some pompous AC’s words that don’t match actions and getting your hopes up for a whole lot of nothing. Thanks once again Natalie!
So true. At first it can seem a blow to your ego that they aren’t begging or reaching out to you anymore, but when I let my mind wander that way I remind myself to thank my lucky stars he has moved on to try his chances elsewhere. Even if the words seem sweet (or in the moment, genuine), we all know how the story ends, each time. And they know that we aren’t going to put up with their crap anymore. So kudos to us!
Want to hear another one?
“I can’t make you any promises right now.”
The ‘right now’ part is a dangling wilted carrot to keep you on board but off their back.
They have a good idea we won’t accept an out right offer of crumbs, so they keep the idea of a loaf out there without actually saying it isn’t on offer. It MIGHT be, someday, I think, right? It’s the dangling carrot these ambiggies need though to get their needs met, and that is sneaky selfish shit. It pays off for them to offer women with little self respect crumbs and dangling carrots. They too have this idea they need a return on their investment, and so it begins. Such an ugly dance.
This ambiguous talk is like a cold shower.
Great post Natalie. So clear.
I’m used to the “pink elephant” in the room in that nothing is ever really said. When I finally feel like the thing not being acknowledged is getting too obvious, I speak up (albeit not forcefully). The thing that confuses me is that they usually “agree” to moving the relationship forward but then their actions don’t match — if anything they belie that they really don’t want more than “casual” masquerading as a commitment. Then I struggle with a bait and switch situation. I guess I need to be more direct, clear, and not play the “waiting game.” If I had my choice, I’d rather they say less and do more than say the “right” things and do less. Then I just feel misled and used by the end.
You just put a smile on my face. I can soooo remember those conversations. I’m laughing and crying! This is hysterical. Wow Natalie, you are on fire!
And Miss Bliss…”It reached it’s natural conclusion.” Hahahahahaha!
I sooo wish I had neen able to read this 3 years ago. My previous relationships were completely ambiguity-free so weird willy nilly behavior took me completely for a loop. Now I am finding that due to the recession, I will be several tens of thousands of dollars short of what I need to get for my house here and land so I start over with a small place in the woods somewhere else. Damn.
That is a bummer about the market. But good news that you’re actively looking into a move, Miskwa.
this is perfect!AC, EMU,Commitment phobics this is exactly what they do and say and mastered their crafts so well to the point that on top of their dumb head and numb heart they could always get away with it. But!!!! NO! NO! NO! it’s time to give these people a doze of their own medicine with their sickening tactics. NC!!! they’re not worthy of our attention, time and energy because they’re full of crap.They will grow old lonely and pathetic. My ex is a typical EU/FF/CP and 2 months ago,told me: Just accept the relationship as It is! What it is!Honestly, I was confused of what that meant and it never made any sense to me. So I couldn’t buy it. But I listened to my inner voice shouting at me to Be Brave and Stand for myself. And I did! ‘called the shot and its been 2 months of NC after that. NOW… “Er, isn’t that,it is what it isn’t?” this really hit home run for me! It was very easy to understand. Full of clarity. It really feels good to get out of a shady relationship. More power to all of Us, Fine Ladies.
This post had me nodding in agreement all the way through it. The ex-AC said repeatedly throughout our 2 year relationship “I don’t have to be Mr. Right, I just want to be Mr. Right Now,” and “let’s just live in the moment.” He future-faked for a while, talking about how he could see us at my children’s graduation and building a life together, but when I started buying into that vision, he changed the tune to “I really can’t see myself getting married again,” or “I need to focus on my grandchildren/son/daughter/job/parents/finances yada yada yada . . .” always someone other than me when I would ask why our relationship wasn’t progressing. I finally got tired of always being last in his life and ended it, but I had so much heartache over it I thought I was going to die. Not him. He moved on almost immediately and found someone else to yank around. For a long time, I blamed myself for not being good enough for him to WANT a future with me, and then I found BR, and you , Nat, and now I know, I am blessed that he didn’t want a future with me because that future would have made me miserable. I am so much happier now, and I have a future with ME! Thank you for this site, and your amazingly astute writing.
Natalie, I love how you decode the code language of EUM’s and AC’s. This one is chalk full of the language of an EUM/AC. I heard the exact same double-speak, non-speak, verbatim from the exMM and I spent many hours staring at an ambiguous text or email message trying to find something to hang my hat on. Of course, there was nothing to hang my hat on cos there was nothing.
Here’s the thing though. With the Petraus resignation and admission of an extramarital affair, and all the press coverage, it’s brought me back to reliving that OW darkness. You were totally the best on the talk show “Confessions of an OW”. How does a former OW ever get beyond that darkness? As though there is something in the air, the exMM contacted me (work email which I cannot block) with the opportunity to work together on totally cool work related project. Talk about scratching my head. I’m reading the codes, “I can never commit to you” but “I want you as an option” and BTW, there’s a really cool thing we could work on together. It is hard to accept that it means: “You go your own way but they continue hovering around, being up in your business and basically showing apparent interest even though you’ve said that you’re not interested in casual. You cave, you go out again, maybe sleep together and then when you ask them what’s going on, it’s “I’m not in a position right now to start a relationship” or “You know my situation”. Why can’t these married men be married in thought and action with their wife? Why can’t he dream up a really cool work project with his wife? Why the frigging hell can’t he leave me ALONE? It was a two year affair and it will be two years in December since the major break-up. I don’t want to be an OW or even a former OW. I want it all to go away. I want him to go away forever. Why won’t he go away? My door has been sealed shut for over a year. It’s like there is something in the air. He CANNOT come back and hit the reset button. I’m not that woman anymore. Arragh…I’m frustrated because I thought I had moved on. Damn him and his totally cool work project. It’s a cool project though. I know the code.
Runner, you HAVE moved on. He hasn’t. That’s about him and not about you. I think what you’re feeling is very, very understandable – I mean, who enjoys being reminded of a painful experience?! It’s just a phone call/email/text, so try to think of it as just a blip on your radar and nothing that has the power to derail you – because it doesn’t! Hope this helps lady :). Xoxo
Steal his idea and do it with someone else runnergirl!!
ROTFLMAO!!!! Victorious, I like the way you think!
I like it too. I know that you are not supposed to contact him Runner but seriously can’t you just email back and say “I am not interested in hearing from you, I have made that very clear. Stop trying to use work-related things to contact me. You are not interesting to me, I don’t care about you, move on. I mean it”. Seriously, he is harrassing you at work and HR, if they did snoop through your emails, would get the clue that he is doing it. What an ass to bother you at work!
Runnergirl, Isn’t it weird? All that energy the ex-MM spends hovering around, sending out tentacles, and not putting it into their marriages? When my ex went back, he said, “She’s so happy I am home, and all I feel is, ‘Oh well, whatever’.” They view their wives as convenient options, just as they viewed us. Can’t commit to us OR them. So why do they recontact? Bored. Empty. Need a little sparkle in their lives or want that spring back in their step.
Runner,
This turd is so big you may need to follow it up with Drano.
Hi Ladies,
Yup, thank you Natasha. It’s a blip. Time to dial down the drama-rama-meter Runner. It’s an ambiguous email. If the past is any indicator of the future, I’d end up doing all the work, he’d saunter in late, and take all the credit. But now that I have a heads up, I could get involved without him! Thanks Victorious.
Swissmiss, before I sealed the door shut, I got the same line. Therapy didn’t work but…? Yeah, it’s just bored, empty, in need of an ego stroke.
Frig Selkie, how did you know my drains are clogged and I need drano? Or a drop dead gorgeous plumber.
I’ve dialed it down. Whew, what a relief. Thank you ladies. It’s an ambiguous email. He, he, he, I’m certain Natalie is peeking over my back fence. Waving furiously!
runner – seriously? The exMM emailed you out of the blue after 2 years and suggested a project? Wow, just wow. I thought he had been history for so long that he would leave you be. Wasn’t he back to living his married life as if nothing had ever happened between you?
“My door has been sealed shut for over a year…He CANNOT come back and hit the reset button. I’m not that woman anymore…Damn him and his totally cool work project. It’s a cool project though. I know the code.”
Keep that door sealed shut runner. You HAVE moved on, you have learned so much on BR. He is still not THAT special, you are still not that desperate, and there is still no fire!
Hugs xo
He never said “It is what it is”, but he did say “What’s done is done”. Is that similar? This was his way of comforting me when I lost my baby. I can’t describe how much those words hurt me. I suppose you could say that this was a clumsy, bland, pretty thoughtless choice of words that seem to state the obvious but actually implies helplessness. However, his subsequent words and actions suggest that what he meant was “Its happened, don’t bother me with your emotions, I don’t care so just deal with it”. In other words an expression of dismissal and a polite way of saying “I just don’t give a rat’s ass!” I suppose it shouldn’t matter what he meant now, but it still hurts. At any rate this post has come at a good time. I’m having a weak moment, but after reading this my resolve has returned and NC remains intact. Thank you, Natalie.
Lily
Use that phrase for yourself “What is done is DONE.” You are DONE with his crap, you are DONE with his manipulative child-speak, you are DONE with what he has done. He is so right. What is done is done and and two can play that game. Hugs….
Lilly,
Yes, it sounds like “your” exMM’s words were consistent with “it is what it is”. Unfortunately, your translation sounds pretty accurate from what you have written on here. It sounds like he does not have an empathetic bone in his body! That “being dismissed” feeling is familiar to me, it stings badly, and probably dredges up those old childhood feelings about which we have written on here! Stay strong my NC sister. Stay out of that ambiguous, thoughtless man’s web. Hugs xo
Lilly,
A profound loss is a major turning point in most people’s lives. I am very sorry that you have suffered in this way.
I don’t necessarily expect others to understand what it means to suffer a profound loss; however, I do expect the personal *value* of empathy from so-called friends AND so-called lovers. If I don’t get that the person values the experiences of others and is incapable or unwilling to express empathy, that is a RED FLAG for me. It basically shows that we do not have similar values and thus the relationship should not move forward AT ALL.
This is so true! I have heard all of those ambigous statements. Looking back, each time that any variation of those ambigous statements were said to me, the relationship always ended horribly. I would find myself constantly confused. And i spent way too much time trying to decipher what his intentions were…just wasted mental energy.
On the other hand, for those who had genuine interest in dating me, none of that happened. No wasted mental energy, no defining talks, no phone games, minimal texting, no wondering about if we will have a weekend date, should I call him?? etc. everything just naturally flowed. Also, there was a sense of calm, no anxiety in the relationship.
Problem is , I have had way more ambigous relationships than healthy relationships. As a result, it has left me somewhat off balance, sometime I have to figure out the difference between what is real versus “looking and waiting for the bottom to fall out”. But I am learning to slow down, don’t be so mental by allowing myself to analyze every uttered word or action. All for the sake of trying to protect myself. The. moment that i find myself falling back to that “grey and confused state”. I pretty much know that problems are on the way.
However, the best remedy i found, is to relax and pay close attention to how I am feeling.
This is a brilliant post. I dated so many men in the past who gave me ‘crumbs’ and were unwilling to declare their commitment to me, even after months of being ‘in a relationship’! I finally woke up and decided to break my patterns and change. Now I am dating a man who tells me every day how much he loves and values me. If I ask him where we stand (not that I need to), he tells me that we are in a committed relationship leading towards marriage if we continue doing so well. I finally feel happy and insecure. Don’t settle for less!
Hi Natalie and all you beautiful people. It is this experience that led me to BR. The gut knew but the mind took longer to catch up. We have never spoken of the shady behaviour though I belive that he knows I have found him out. We work together and he is either trying to start an argurment or being smooth. Interestingly during the masterclass of this non relationship I discovered his traits were just like my dads. Lovely man,lazy and ego fulled and a real charmer.
after several months of wading through the land of EUM confusion (after a very hot blowning start, of course), i finally confronted the ex EUM if he wanted to be in a relationship with me or not. he used the following in his reply:
‘it is what it is’
‘i am taking it day by day’
‘i am not ready for a relationship’
‘i can’t give you what you need’
‘i am damaged goods’
he pretty much re-iterated the entire AC/EUM manual. he said he didn’t want to break up with me. he was not going to just give up on us (after ignoring me and withdrawing for the previous 2 months). i wasn’t even on BR back then, but you know that sinking feeling. listen to it.
i gave him a chance to either fully commit to me or break up. regardless of how much it hurts (still, even after 3 months), i should be and will be grateful he chose the latter. it was a huge wake up call for me (after getting future faked, and me getting ready to relocate to his country). my BS detector is definitely on high alert now.
After two months of dating the bf and I had a talk about our relationship. No going with the flow for us! We talked about how we met, what we found attractive about each other, what we were unsure about, what we were sure about, marriage, and our timescales. At the end of it, he said, “just so we have clarity, I want …” I,ll keep that bit private but suffice to say it wasn’t any of the half-ass cliches mentioned in Nat,s post.
I remember thinking,
Wow this is DIFFERENT.
Grace, so inspiring. We need to hear about the good ones, too! I know I need help to keep faith.
grace, you are so my hero. i’ve been reading your posts here and you give me hope. i love it how you sat down and discussed it. yes, clarity is wonderful!
i just assumed we were on the same page. after all, he had asked me to move in with him and apparently, i was everything he had ever wanted. i assumed he spoke the truth, just like i had. naive as i was, it never occurred to me that he wanted to be in a relationship again so badly (after having been single for 3 years) that it was simply his desire speaking. not his desire for me.
it’s been a few months now. and NC has definitely made things better, and i am getting better. i’ve been having a few really rough days though where i miss him (or the good one, from in the beginning) and feel very lonely.
what you did in your current relationship, grace… that’s what i’ll be doing in the next. no assumptions. and i need proof as in action matching words.
Wonderful for you Grace. I appreciate reading your updates with the bf. You keep me heading in the right direction. I am starting to see the difference between the non-committal, ambiguous, double-speak of an EU and when somebody is available. Moreover, I’m starting to see how unavailable I was to tolerate such non-committal, ambiguous, EU double-speak. You go girl!
Let’s see, I had
“It’s not you, it’s me.”
“Don’t ever change, you are perfect, gorgeous sweet and sexy.” *But I am not sure I want to see you any more.And let’s not have sex.*
” I am so fucked up. All my friends laugh at me.” WARNING, WARNING!
“I really love spending time with you, I still want to be in a relationship with you.” *Every time i tried to break up with him for giving me crumbs*
And the one that I cannot forgive, the one that finished me off, “It’s not gonna be an ending like in the movies Victorious.”
So sorry. I forgot to include this scorcher that I heard over and over again. Some of you may be a tad familiar with it.
“I just don’t know what i want.”
I have a few good ones :
– ”how can you put up with me ?”
– ”it’s not fair for you”
– ”I see myself with you forever”
– ”I’m really screweud up”
_ ”I struggle with this and I don’t thing that I can offer what you want
– ”It’s nothing against you, I just need MY time alone.
4.5 years relationship (not living together 45yo boyfetus)
Last guy said to me…”I don’t want to hurt you, I’m a failure with nothing to offer.” Insert sad face.
Translation: “I’ve already thrown in the towel, this is too much work for me, I’m trying to get you to break up with me because I’m a wimp and I don’t want to feel any guilt.”
Thumb sucker.
Me? A recovering pacifier.
Selkie,
The next one up is: “I am afraid I am going to hurt you…” To which I, of course, replied: “Oh, no, you cannot hurt me.” I was thinking he could not hurt me bc I did not want a relationship with him, but he certainly did manage to hurt me in other ways, for example by his constant criticism of how I looked, and that I was not a gymnast, because he “only dated gymnasts.” Another line:”You must promise me you won’t fall in love with me.” Translation: “because if you don’t promise me that, I won’t even sleep with you in case you would create drama.”
I was a victim of this countless times. Well, not a victim, per se, I did continue “relationships” after I got these ambiguous messages but overthought what these clowns were saying. It seemed, over and over, that the responses I would get to getting a feel for where “we” were going (as I had to ask since I wasn’t getting any clear signs in the first place!) were “you shouldn’t have any expectations”, or “I can’t make a commitment” (this is after dating for well over a year and doing a lot of family things together…where was he going? As it turned out, he had the hots for another/married woman)”You’re the only one for me” (but I don’t want to be with you..)
I started to think I was losing my mind, or more specifically, that I clearly didn’t understand men/dating/relationships. All these guys made me feel like I was in the wrong. It wasn’t like I was asking for clarification; we’re talking ‘relationships’ of over 5 months or so, nearly daily contact, etc, and often that contact was NOT intitated by me. The other thing was that these guys are all late 40’s/early-mid-50’s. It’s not like I was trying to grab a 20-something who is clearly NOT ready to commit. All these guys claimed to be looking for LTR’s.
After breakups it usually became clear: one was dating someone else the same time as me (found out when he posted when their relationship started on facebook…the same time “ours” did), the ex AC who wanted to screw his fellow AA member, the guys who were still playing around on-line, the ones who weren’t over their ex’s and used me for a rebound.
What I learned: when they make ONE ambiguous comment FLUSH. I was able to do that with the last two guys I dated before I met the one I’m seeing now. I heard the same BS comments and immediately thought to myself, “Wimp.”
tracy, the reason I felt like I was losing my mind was because I didn`t trust myself to heed the warnings from my gut. Actions not matching words were confusing me instead of just being the confirmation of the WTF moments when my gut was drawing my attention to flags. I`ve got a long way to go but nowadays I don`t feel ever like I`m going crazy, when processing a situation, I just accept it as reality and respect and acknowledge my feelings about it. What a difference, no drama.
Mine started out with “I don’t want to hurt you.” And the constant “you are so beautiful and wonderful” after we have sex and than he disappears for a couple of weeks. Or “I need my alone time and am practicing celibacy.” translation..I am seeing someone else. He sends me tons and tons of quotes or articles by Pema or Rumi. No original thoughts…ever. Just wants to be “friends” but expects me to drive into his house late at night for sex. Always stating we need to just “enjoy the moments.” I get emails that are SO evasive that I spend hours trying to decipher his meaning and try to find something that shows he cares. It’s exhausting. I need to stop but not sure how. Your writings are so helpful.
nancy,
it`s not going to magic into anything good,you will flush him, or he`ll leave you, it`s a matter of time. I know how difficult it is to do, I clung to so much crap from my ex (should make that plural, clung to ALl exes for too long) for so long knowing that I need to let go, but the thought of letting go sent me into blind panic every time. The longer you let him disrespect you like that the more difficult it`ll be for you to get over how this whole thing will leave you. I let my indecision rip me to pieces and I need to acknowledge now that I probably caused myself more harm than he did. Sad, but true.
nancy
Make a plan of how you´ll busy yourself once you go NC. That way it´ll be much easier and you wont fall into the temptation of questioning your decision.
Also, make a list off all the stupid things he´s said and done and refer to it every time you begin to have doubts.
Its not you its me.
Its not me its you.
I am me and you are you???
I am not a dog who is good at tail wagging?????
I never get ANGRY, I can control myself, I give myself space to work it out and have a reality check!
We are always evolving and revolving which results in solving?????
I am ANGRY that you dont understand me!
I am misunderstood.
I need an honest and open relationship.
I have no feelings towards my ex wife.
Cant meet Saturday as taking ex wife out for her birthday.
I dont want to lose you, you are my everything!
I am going on a road trip.
You never tell me enough that you love me.
Love is such a strong word, I really dont use it often, almost never but I really really like you.
We have such a good connection.
The ball is in your court, so will wait to hear from you??? but not till next week as have golf trip already planned.
I am back…coffee?
What are we doing for Xmas?
Cant do Xmas see you Boxing Day.
We will plan a great new year, and it will all fall into place.
The list is endless, I could sit here till dawn breaks. Suffice to say he is well and truly flushed. I was fed enough crumbs to feed all the pigeons of the world but I am BR wise now.
Truth
Even though I know these quotes come from your pain, it’s still hilarious to read them! With the wisdom of hindsight, that is, some day we’ll see only the absurdity of it all!
Thanks Teddie, Sooo glad I found a shred of inner strength and flushed. I now can laugh at the absurdity. Think these guys pick five random pages from a thesaurus, chose two words from each page and form a sentence! LOL
“I don’t like it when someone thinks I am the missing piece in the puzzle of their life”.
“Whatever happens, we’ll be friends.”
“There is no plan”.
“Let’s enjoy the journey rather than rushing to the destination” is one of my faves from the ex, along with “it’s nice to be with someone who does not want to take my life over”, and “every day is a bonus and that makes it exciting”. Can’t believe now that I went along with any of this guff!
I did not get many the last relationship but I did get a slight rosy flag that I now understand was one.
Me: “Okay, we have been seeing each other three weeks and now we are passionately kissing on my couch. As you know, I only get involved like this when it is going to be serious. So I know that you said you are not interested in dating someone else, have you taken off your internet dating profile?”
Him ( laughing and trying to silence me with a kidd) “Hey you are so cute when you are insistent we will talk about this later.”
Me:( sitting up) “Seriously? Did you actually say that to me? No, we need to talk about it now, what is going on? Are you seriously telling me that we will talk about this later, no, we will talk about it now.”
Him: (sitting up) “Sweetie, I took my profile down over a week agon.”
Me; (heart melting) “Oh…”
But the thing is, I think that now, he really just went home and took it down that night. I think that he really just would have played it out to see what I would do, and demand, and expect. And now he is messing around another woman, and it just does not bother me, but it irritates me, how easily these guys do their verbal yoga on you. It is so ignoble.
kiss,
ago
Wow truth=freedom, you really got some doozie’s from your EUM!
Here are a few more to add:
I love you but I don’t know where it leads
I want you in my life for the long term, in some capacity.
I think our relationship is hard to define.
I don’t think I can give you what you need.
Why are you asking what you mean to me? I feel like I am in the hot seat!
How will you ever trust me? I am a cheating husband.
When he got a text when we were together, looked pale when he saw who it was from: I asked who it was from, and he was evasive and just said “kiss me” in a very determined way.
I am not a good catch – I am old and out of shape.
I don’t want to lose you. You are the centre of my world.
I care for you and I will forever have strong feelings for you.
“We don’t know each other that well yet.” — From someone I’d known for three years
The one I got that should have raised a big red flag but didn’t was “I really like messin’ around with you.” Yeah, that’s what it was all right, just “messin’ around” because he was bored and lonely and waiting for something better to come along. I thought it was just cute and playful at the time. But I do remember that the thought flashed through my mind “Hmm, that’s an odd thing to say…” just for a second before I impatiently brushed it away. Ladies, we have to remember that our inner selves, our instincts, our guts ALWAYS know what’s going on and we must listen to those warning bells they raise.
My ex who died said so and did so many things which showed he was never committed (we never got that far) AND treated me so badly (I later found out this was because there was an OW in the background I didn’t know about until months after I gave him the ass) that it’s complicating my grieving process.
I never did have the chance to confront him other than by email/text about the OW to no reply other than his last attempt to reach out to me by email to which I did not reply. In that email he said that apparently wanted to discuss this issue…
On one hand I’m sad that he died. On the other it absolutely GALLS me that a newspaper obit mentions this OW as his bloody partner for godsakes! I am SO angry!!! When I think of all the things he said and did it ALL makes so much sense in hindsight!!!
I’m starting to wonder if once I’ve resolved some of the other issues I’m dealing with here (health & finances) perhaps I ought to meet with his sister (we’ve been in touch and do know each other) or even the OW (if she was in agreeance, she knows about me as I contacted her by phone once my suspicions were aroused, which is how I found out about her) to see if I can get to the bottom of what the hell really went on?
This man was a part of my life for three years for goodness sakes, it was me he was emailing the day before and the morning of his death but now it’s like I never even existed!
I just don’t get it? How am I supposed to ‘move on’ in a healthy way with an ending like that??
Sorry for ranting. Not having an easy time of it tonight. Intuitively I suspect meeting up with anyone is perhaps not neccessary but I’m just struggling tonight for some reason. Feeling crap!!
Ok. So my head didn’t just pop off with smoke out of it but it ALMOST did. And the guy is DEAD ALREADY!!! Grr!!!!
Actually, this question is solved!UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES will I be meeting with anyone in relation to this effin PRICK!!!
I’m too embarressed to list the sorts of things he used to say but put it this way: AFTER THE WAY HE TREATED ME, WHY THE HELL WOULD ANY WOMAN WITH EVEN HALF A BRAIN IN HER HEAD WASTE HER FREAKING TIME?
ANSWER: SHE WOULDN’T!!!
Teach,
My big sis at BR. 🙂
It’s a clusterfuck, isn’t it? You got so much going on: you got the knowledge that he was an AC prick, coupled with the relatively new info of the OW, coupled with the (rather big) news of his death. And then you have the knowledge that he was tied closely enough to you in some way to reach out to you in his last hours on earth. Was he a complete fucked up assclown? Sounds like it. Did he care about you? Um, sorry to say and I don’t know how you will feel about this: yes, it sounds to me like he cared.
So now you’re left with trying to marry all of this conflicting and heartbreaking information together. Well guess what? It doesn’t fit together. Sometimes a lot of things can be true independent of one another. One fact doesn’t cancel out another. His was definitely NOT the healthiest form of love, but in his own really dysfunctional way, he cared.
So where does that leave you? What do you DO WITH THAT? (Because, if you and I are alike, then that’s what you’d be thinking: The practical application.)
Am I right to feel from your comments that you’re like a horse raring to get out of the gate? You are fueled with all of this ENERGY from this information about him, but where does it go? I don’t have the answers, love. You’ll have to figure that out yourself. My only suggestion would be to not decide to contact the OW until you’ve thought it through some more. How will that help you (contacting her)? Will it put things to rest in your mind? Will it stir things up unnecessarily? How does her relationship with him have any bearing on your relationship with him?
Teach, I just LOVE the fact that you express yourself so openly about things with your deceased ex. Keep it comin’. I can’t give you answers; I can only parrot back what I hear from you, but from my perspective.
Going through a depression right now, I am finally (as this is NOT my first run through this terrain) just ALLOWING myself to be a hot mess because, well, I don’t have the strength to do anything else. I’m not fighting it anymore. I’m taking the time to rest, sleep, work when I have to, take supplements that I know will help, try to eat right, exercise when I feel up to it, and then sleep some more. Part of me fears that “giving in” to the depression (read: ALLOWING myself to be depressed, and sinking into it) will cause it to eat me alive. But I’m finding that, without the fight, I’m actually able to, yes, go through some pretty gnarly emotions that I sometimes don’t see the bottom of (scary!). But then they leave me alone and I find that I have released a little bit of that emotion by facing it. So it’s not so bad the next time. Maybe you’re going through the same process. You know, despite how you may feel right now about everything and about yourself, Teach, I want to tell you that of all the exceptional women here on BR, I pay special attention to your words. Might be a small thing in this world, and in relation to the storm that you are enduring. But hey, just to know that your words can effect someone, a stranger even…that has to account for something in this world.
teachable,
he loved you the best way he knew how.
That`s the conclusion I came to, was in your situation. He is gone, and there won`t be any answers, even if you find out more from this other woman.Hugs.
teachable, I didn`t explain it very well. You are grieving a damaged person who was not capable of giving you a relationship you deserved. Makes you feel very conflicted because you need to deal with your anger and the guilt for feeling angry. I think damaged people do love but in a damaged way.Hugs again.
teachable,sorry and hugs for your really hard row to hoe now… I agree with all of the above people, please listen to them. rev, reasoned and lovely response, very wise. sometimes we never can organize all these conflicting things about people. to horribly borrow the phrase of this post “it is what it is”
Nancy
Don’t waste time deciphering anything, just bail. Go NC now! You are being used. Yep, it would be great if these dudes never got laid; poor lil babies would just have to learn to be accountable.
@Lawrence; I have been guilty of ambivalence-like behavior. One was an extreme future faker who I had known for maybe a total of 5 hours who wanted me to marry him, drop everything, and move to the East coast, the other was a dude who lied about his appearance on line and wants some permutation of a casual relationship. I did kinda step back for a while to look at both situations to decide what to do which was flush them both. If or when I feel like doing the on line dating thing again, I will be armed to the teeth with BR wisdom. Right now I feel battered, trying to find out what my options actually are and will be dealing with my dying dad over the holiday.
There’s something about this post which has crawled down within, and is making me experience my own UW behaviors. One of the first things that is a “given” is that unavailable peeps attract each other. But, I always said to myself, “no not me, I want a long term relationship, I’m not unavailable”.
This post is somehow making me realize what a semi-A/C UW I’ve been.
Yes, I heard all those sayings such as it is what it is, I’ve even said them myself. I’ve been lying to myself for years, pretending that the unavailable stuff is all on the other person.
When I read through some of those sayings, it actually made me feel a certain sense of relief, they feel comforting to me things like, “let’s just focus on right now, I can’t make you any promises right now”.
I think I’ve liked serial monogomy, I just hated the break ups. I only wanted one lover at a time, but I didn’t know if I want them forever, forever was too long. Now that I’m older, I don’t want to do the series of lovers, I’d like to create a life with someone, but I have pretty dismal skills.
Honestly right now, I’m pretty confused.
But Natalie, that was a really great post, thank you for helping me so much! Your the best!!!!
Whoops, you’re the best!!!!!!
Pink Panther…
I think you’re right. It does take and EU to attract an EU or worse yet, an AC. I’ve used some of these lines myself as well.
My first thought reading your post and realizing I’ve also used these lines was, “But only when I’ve had enough of the BS and pain and am starting to disentangle myself.” Ummm..justifying to yourself much, La Pintura??? Dodging your responsibility here?
So, Pink Panther, thank you for having the courage to state here that you see how you’ve been EU as well. Your post made me stop in my tracks and acknowledge to myself that I am EU too.
You can’t fix what you don’t know. Another step forward for us all!
PinkPant,
What does being an UW means ? That we are not jumping into the sack with them right away ? That we are not willing to marry them in 3 months ?
I’m an UW too then.
We all want and cherish our time alone and it’s the healthy thing to do.
I really think that being UW in a relationship it’s in fact our little inner voice (the one that we often ignore) trying to tell us something. And that when the right ”HE” will appear the UW will ”dissolve” Maybe I’m just too optimistic… :))
Espoir, I guess UW means different things to different people.
For me I do like to sleep with them, and I like to emotionally bond with them, but I’m picking people who I unconsciously know are going to bale on me for one reason or another. I wonder if the reason I do this is because that way I don’t have to deal with a more substantial relationship, and if they break up with me, I don’t have to break up with them.
Perhaps I’m a chicken?
In the past this was me, but I want a new me.
I have recently been told by a date that I seem like the type who is a player, and just wants sex and fun. (I’m not a spring chicken). I was told this after I disclosed that I am wanting a relationship which has the potential to last.
Curious, I asked some other people who don’t know me well how I come off, and they all told me the same thing.
I was perplexed. I had no idea that I come off this way. I”m a very kind and deep person, and I don’t sleep around, so the fact that people seem to think I do is interesting. One of my friends said I have sense of style which gives off sex vibes. I’m not talking tight, low cleavage, or in any way too sexy, just fun colors playful and friendly clothes. Yes clothes can be friendly and when I want people to interact with me I will wear things which will draw them in. Somehow I’m projecting a potential good time, and the idea that I’m game for “whatever”.
pinkpanther, your self-awareness is a gift and I’m grateful for your sharing it. When I read your posts, I’m able to relate and reflect more honestly about my own EU past and, after reading your post and reading all of Natalie’s insights, I’m thinking I may still be EU. I’m thankful that you’re open about being a lesbian because you’re right–it’s not a “man vs. woman” thing. It’s about having developed the skills to be in a committed relationship and I don’t know if I know how, either.
Rosie,
you wrote:
it’s not a “man vs. woman” thing. It’s about having developed the skills to be in a committed relationship and I don’t know if I know how, either.
This is exactly it.
I know how I’ve bumbled along, always with good intentions, but it also seems I’ve ALWAYS been unconsciously sabotaging my relationships by being non-committal.
I also think many people these days are left hanging in ambiguous situations in all areas of life. Many don’t know if they have a job or a home or good health etc, from day to day. The idea of stability in many areas of our lives has shifted from an American Dream (or it’s geographical equivalent for first world countries), to the new reality of “you better be quick on your toes, cause this shit could hit the fan any day now”
What if two people are happy together and one loses their job and has to move far far away, these kinds of things didn’t used to happen. I know a few married people who don’t even live in the same state because of work, then they max themselves out in debt, then they get sick and need the health insurance, so they agree to live far far apart in order to “save their marriage”.
So here’s a new ambiguous statement for you all: “Shit happens”
pinkpanther, yes. You’ve touched upon the larger social issue. How does one be commitment-oriented if one is in a state of transition or is fearful of soon being in a state of transition? Thus, it becomes about getting what you can now because tomorrow it may not be here.
It’s so much more complex than this, of course, with the intermixing of the individual psychological factors, personal morality and worldview, the larger social factors, and basic human respect and it would be inappropriate to write a thesis here. Anyway, thank you for being a self-reflective thinking person and sharing your thoughts. 🙂
everything is everything…
Lauren Hill
Yes, yes, yes, PP. I have wanted a committed relationship but I also have been following my own career, and have been drawn to people who were the same.
When I was twenty, it made sense to decide – no way will I compromise my career for some guy!
But now that I’m almost 40 (but carded twice this week at two entirely different liquor stores, tyvm!), I think that the kind of decision-making where you would compromise your career in order to be responsible to a relationship and family makes a lot of sense.
When I even think of making such a decision (for example, yes, I’ll stay in this small town because I met you and love you and want to be with you) it seems incredibly romantic (in a naive way) and like I’m still stuck on the expectations for women that I resisted twenty years ago.
Ambiguous statements I’ve gotten:
I’m not dating anyone else (this was totally unsolicited by a guy I had only been with 2 weeks) I think it was his way of saying ‘I dont want you to go out with anyone else but I’m not committing to you’.
I suppose if I had a gf you’d be the ‘one’. This from a guy I had been with for a year at this point and saw a couple of times a week. It was the most bizarre relationship I ever had.
So so glad I found BR. Even my fantasy movie star crushes are no longer fantasies.
Both these guys chased after me insisting that I be their friend after we broke up. The last one sent me birthday wishes for about 5 years after I went NC on him, would leave my favorite S American coffee in the mailbox and would try to send me business…all to get me to be friends. What a joke..
Natalie,
This post PISSED ME OFF. Thanks. 🙂
I’m ashamed to admit that ALL OF MY PREVIOUS RELATIONSHIPS have been with these masterful word architects, lol. These “con-men of words” that craft lies like bad poetry. GOD, words are my profession, so it’s DOUBLY embarrassing! *hangs my head*
I’ve heard, like most of the ladies here, most of these statements. Well, NO MORE OF THAT NONSENSE. Seriously. A switch has been flipped, I can feel it.
The thing is, I’m ANGRY. At these cowardly men. And at myself. WHO ARE THESE ASSHOLES THAT THEY THINK THEY CAN THROW THESE RINKY-DINK, FLACCID WORDS AT US IN LIEU OF CARE AND RESPECT??? WHY DON’T THEY MAN THE F*CK UP JUST ONCE IN THEIR LIVES AND TAKE ACTION TO DO SOMETHING THAT REMOTELY SMACKS OF BEING A DECENT PERSON???
Sorry. It’s out now, lol. Thanks for listening.
just today, i received an email from someone i met online (dating site) who’d been blowing quite hot for the past few weeks, then this week i felt a shift.
this morning i received an email. he told me that even though he enjoyed our conversations, he didn’t feel this ‘connection’ would lead to a relationship. just this morning, i was journaling and i re-iterated the same. how refreshing to have a man with a backbone, an opinion and a healthy dose of self awareness, reflection and honesty in him. i thanked him from the bottom of my heart. no, i am not ‘in love’ with him, neither do i want to be with him, but kudos to him for being honest and sincere. he didn’t string me along. he didn’t feed me crumbs and he wasn’t ambiguous. he certainly has restored my faith in decent men. they’re still out there.
Revolution..
you make me sit up every time you comment, you are perfectly to the point every time. I like the way you say it lady.
I’m going to have a new benchmark in my head for dealing with ambiguous cockwombles.
“what would Revolution say?” is my new mantra.
Revolution, I can relate to your anger! I like it when I feel angry it makes me feel strong! Sorry to hear that you’re struggling right now, but just wanted you to know that I love your posts and they have helped me. Keep strong and here’s a hug xxx.
Revolution,
I KNOW! I HEAR YA! You are right to be angry. Take it easy on yourself. There are decent men out there. Unfortunately sometimes the bad eggs lay it on sooooo thick. And I ate that bs up like there was no tomorrow, and you know what??turns out…there is a tomorrow and another one and another one….without these assclowns! And now that I am mindful of who I let in my life (assclowns don’t get very far) I even laugh at the bs I hear now, and I WALK AWAY (sometimes with a good laugh) These men, these effing men…Anger (when handled properly) I got a stress ball (I used to throw eggs at the side of our house and then the back yard wreaked of eggs even after I took the hose to it)– can be a useful tool if you learn from it. SO…stress ball, journaling and validating my anger…but takin it very easy when it is directed to me. I can let me be angry at me, but I must process it and forgive–that shit’ll eat up yer soul if you let it. Stay strong woman. There ARE good men out there, when you’re ready you’ll spot em. In the mean time, steer clear of the assclowns! Take care lady!
Ha! Sorry, I had to laugh. I had my CAPs lock ON and I was ready to kick a** and take names!! Lol. I’m better now, thanks.
Seamstress,
You made me laugh (with slight discomfort, though) with the “What would Revolution do?” Jeez, I don’t want to be responsible for a bunch of vigilantes out on the street, kicking the crap out of ACs, lol. Nah, here’s what I’d do: Vent (case in point, the above rant) and then calm down, learn to not repeat my MISTAKE of getting involved in the mess in the first place (shout-out to Teach! :)), forgive, and move on. But yeah, I won’t lie that I’m exceptionally gifted at the “anger phase” of grief. Don’t know if that’s something to be proud of or not, lol. But thanks for the kind words. By the way, love your moniker. I can’t sew to save my life.
Lilly, honey. You’re such a sweetheart. I just love your gentle comments. Please don’t follow my blowhardiness as an example, lol. Try to process your (justified!) anger in a healthier way than I have! 🙂 You’ve been through the ringer, and I’ve read your story on here. The other women have been better at comforting you, as I’ve always felt clumsy and at a loss of what to say. But my heart does go out to you. Stay strong, steel magnolia. 🙂
Jennifer, girl. You crack me up. Thanks. Yes, I do agree FOR SURE that there are good guys out there. Just look at the guys who comment here, bewildered about the female ACs they’ve encountered. I won’t lose the faith, girl! Thanks!
This ambiguity, this avoidance, this verbal artful-dodgering? Theatre of the Absurd. The ghost of Jean Genet should be perched in the dress circle for these scenes, taking notes, on the meaningless observational non-sequiturs that these men try to pass off as diplomatic dialogue.
This is hand-caught-in-the-cookie-jar defense. When confronted, a manchild put on the defensive will say ANY SET OF WORDS to divert the attention away from their obvious guilt and back onto you to suggest there’s something wrong with you for not going along with their crime. They know they’ve been busted, and they’re standing there in your torchlight. They’re responding accordingly in the way that gives them the best chance of continuing to commit the crime while recruiting you, the victim, as a willing cohort — or maybe telling you you’re imagining things and to go back to sleep.
What astonishes me is how they consider these statements to be ‘not lying’ — in the same way that a burglar who has stripped your home of every last precious possession you ever owned might try to ‘comfort’ you with the words “Hey I never wanted to steal your stuff.” As if THAT has any bearing whatsoever on what they actually did in spirit, action and intent.
“What astonishes me is how they consider these statements to be ‘not lying’ — in the same way that a burglar who has stripped your home of every last precious possession you ever owned might try to ‘comfort’ you with the words “Hey I never wanted to steal your stuff.””
I like it 🙂 Or else “well, when you think about it, all property is theft” or “possession is nine-tenths of the law so if I have it…” or “well it only looks that way if you’re seeing it from YOUR perspective, I think that words like ‘theft’ are a bit judgemental” or “Hey, I didn’t ASK you to get a door that was so easy to kick in”.
Ugh.
As an aside, I’ve just been talking about burglars somewhere else on here. It’s funny, but theft is the analogy that most springs to mind these days when I think about what these blokes do.
Griz – well said!
The “hand in the cookie jar” analogy is bang on. Even while I confronted the exMM with my suspicion of the OOW, and he confessed, he blurted out nonsensical blubberings like “I didn’t tell you about her because I didn’t want to hurt anyone” “I thought what we had together was fragile, and I didn’t want to risk losing you” “if you had slept with someone else, I would not have wanted to know about it, as then it couldn’t bother me”. What a load of BS!!!
It is what it is works both ways. Though I hated the phrase in my fallback days (but oh the hours of exciting discussion, dissection and drama!), the phrase now is actually liberating. It makes it impersonal: it is what it is. (ie, I am going to do what I do despite you being you, (no matter how you rock the party, it wont change). this does not mean you’re unlovable) … I may say that, you may believe that, but its not true. I am who I am … noncommittal with a ton of tricks up my sleeve to keep you taking crumbs while i wander aimlessly in noncommital, out of emotional connection land with me and everyone else I encounter, If you play along, that is you’re choice. But I’m totally separate from you. I am who I am. It is what it is.) — they can’t MAKE us feel bad about ourselves if we don’t play along. And the fact that we did … no matter how many freakin’ times (and for me it was PLENTY), it happened, I did not accept better, because I didn’t KNOW better (who would really sign-up knowingly for less) so I can’t beat ME up over what happened, or anyone else. I just have to get out of that “land” myself. And stay far away. Because I learned differently. Because i feel differently about me. It is what it is. It was what it was. And move along.
(Certainly not to take away from the use of this phrase to manipulate and excuse shoddy behavior. That’s the purpose of the AC who uses it. Just a way to turn the tables to empower us.)
lo J
“It was what it was” Yes! Let’s keep them in the past, and stay in our different “land”
Wow! I cannot believe the similarities to my current situation. Just to give you some background here, I have been involved with a MM for 6 months. Reading all the posts has given me the strength to go flush this guy. He often says to me…”the situation is as it is” and other suitably vague comments. His wife recently found out about us and he has asked for 6 months so he can go and sort out his life. I won’t be hanging around waiting, that’s for sure!!! Thanks to Natalie for this wonderful website. I also hope that all the other women on here get the support and encouragement they need to reclaim their own lives back.
Ok, again an amazing post. I just in the last 15 minutes had the pleasure of tossing a tosser. An exEUM that I dated a couple of years ago, who made all kinds of promises about spending time over the christmas holidays then didn’t even call, though brought me presents just before christmas (obviously knowing that he wasn’t going to be making a show at the time). I handed him his ass and he promptly moved on to another poor soul and promptly got her pregnant, and they are no longer together either, she lets him see his son, but nothing else. Every so often he’ll text something along the lines of ‘long time no talk’, in the past I would respond, not necessarily right away, and then…crickets. I have never cared, as I wasn’t emotionally attached. He did it again two days ago with “How are you. Long time no talk” Now, I’ve left it for the two days as I figure since he hasn’t responded in the past, I’ll just NC him. But after so much BR time, I thought the direct ‘piss off’ approach would be a good response with this one as I have no attachment and I believe he might actually understand and do it. So, fifteen minutes ago I responded “seriously don’t text me anymore. Fishing is childish behavior and I’m done with that BS.” I don’t believe he will text again, even with his limits, I think he’ll get it.
Oh, and my recent ex EUM MM Narc who is the reason I wound up here…In our last conversation before he went NC as mandated by his wife and counsellor, he actually said something along the lines of ‘I’m not going near anyone again until…’ then he trailed off. I figure that was either because he realized he was telling me that he was NOT committed to making his marriage work like he’d previously stated, OR he didn’t believe it would actually work and was trying to keep me in the loop of being an option for when that comes about. In the same conversation he also said ‘I don’t know what the future holds’ and ‘I’ve taken your info out of my computer and phone, but I’m stilling keeping your info’ and do you want me to let you know how it’s going?’ I was still pre BR, so I said No because otherwise I wouldn’t find anyone if he kept the door open a crack that way. NOW, after a couple of months of BR therapy, I’ve come to see him for what he is, and know that if he can’t make his marriage work, he’s not done his work and will only inflict more of his BS on me. I almost can’t wait for him to contact me to let me know things didn’t work out with his wife, so that I can tell him to take his sorry Narc ass for a long walk down a short pier… But don’t worry, I’m not holding my breath, I’m getting on with my life, I’m just preparing myself for that possibility so that I know what to say if/when it happens… and if does happen and he doesn’t understand, NC all the way.
The guy who brought me here is actually a classic AC and thus consistently future-faked throughout our whole relationship. He was SO certain about us and would act all offended if I ever doubted his sincerity. Even through the countless hours of rumination following our breakup (aka his cowardly disappearance), I can’t recall one ambiguous comment. It was all “I love you so much”, “you’re the only woman for me” “I want to spend my life with you”. This was being told to me even after it became pretty clear he was cheating and I confronted him and suggested breaking up. He was all deny deny deny, saying he was committed to me and our relationship. Of course, after months of confusion following the breakup, I found out last week that he was in fact cheating on me and not for just a short period either- for our whole relationship. I am still trying to process the complete mindfuck he took me on for almost 2 years and am trying to understand where his conscience is. I am now left wondering what was real, if any of it was at all. But that’s another topic altogether.
A couple years before meeting the AC, I dealt with an EUM and it was a nightmare. Our “relationship” lasted 5 months and went absolutely nowhere. This is what I would hear:
“I like you so much”
“I’m not over my ex”
“You’re such an amazing woman”
“I can’t have a relationship right now because my job is so demanding”
“I have to see you again”
And on and on and on. I clearly remember the frustration I felt and even spent hours googling “how to tell if a guy likes you” because I was utterly clueless. Thank God I found BR and can spot an EUM in an instant now. He was also seemingly a “great catch”- early 30’s, close with his family, educated, excellent job. I was so focused on how great a relationship with him would be, I failed to see he wanted no such thing.
Books,
I was fast forwarded and future faked up the whazoo by my exMM EUM Narc. The breakup began when I quipped (after him reiterating the lame excuse for why he was in his marriage despite the ‘hell’ that it was for him, for the 50th time) that I would have to apply for that new show ‘Mistress’. Well, that’s when he began to back track with “you deserve better” and keeping a distance. I’ve been learning alot on this site and other research about narcs in that they fear abandonment so much that they will initiate it themselves if they see the potential for it coming, also I read in someone’s post that ‘once the illusion bubble bursts for us, it bursts for them too’. I believe my comment was the initial slow leak (gig’s up indicator)that propelled his retreat. He continued to engage with me, I’m figuring, in an attempt to control the situation, to keep the bubble from popping, keeping the leak slow so that the situation would just deflate and not burst in his face….wrong. So I told him to tell his wife, or I would with his texts and emails. And considering how much EUMs rely on texts it must have hit him hard HOW much his texts contained that he wouldn’t want her to see. So he did tell her. Then as stipulation for working on things, came the cutting of ties with me, which lead to the conversation of ambiguities. Either he was still trying to keep me sweet so I wouldn’t end up sending her those texts, OR he was attempting at keeping me as an ‘option’ in case his marriage was unsalvagable. Who knows, who cares now? NOT ME!!!!!! I’ve learned so much by diligently, everyday reading BR that I now see how this guy is a walking talking stereotype EUM through and through. He’s done and said MOST of the things that this site points out about MM’s EUM’s, it’s actually funny at this point…I hope that I’m completely through the anger and firmly established at a ‘could care less’ stage, if and when he contacts me again, cause if I’m not, I’ll be demolishing his fragile ego…again…
If I seem to be a walking contradiction with: finding the situation funny, yet angry, yet not caring…well, I’m still processing obviously…And I know where I’m trying to get to, have had glimpses and know I will get there solidly eventually… But I am smiling for the most part and life is getting brighter 🙂
I AM SOOO GRATEFUL FOR NATALIE, WHAT SHE DOES FOR WOMEN AND BAGGAGE RECLAIM.
Last night I read the Wikipedia synopsis for 50 Shades of Grey and laughed my ass off. Anastasia Steele (oh the names! The effing names!) Anywho so it ends with her figuring out that she and Christian Grey (oh the names are so freaking cheesy) aren’t compatible. Ha! It’s like oh sheesh, you mean it can’t work out and end in marriage and babies, or the very least a thoughtful relationship with a creepy, masochistic, abusive control freak in a business suit. (Nothing wrong with a business suit per se, it just adds to the ridiculousness in this case. He’s a business man. Ha! In the business of being creepy.)
You know several months ago I would have bought the book, read it, and been like, “Well, is this what all the young ladies like myself are reading and doing? Well, if I’m gonna find me a relationship/ have a sex life/ not be single forever, I gotta find me a sadistic business man.” Bless my little naive heart. I did find another Mr Unavailbale who jerked me around and broke my heart, then I found Baggage Reclaim, and now I’m finding me.
Jennifer I feel the same way. I cannot watch anymore of those fantasy movies either you know the ones that show friends with benefits turning into a relationship. Ugh, cringe.. Also had I found this website years ago I wouldnt have read ‘He’s Just not into You’ or have bought those tapes upstairs by some guy named Christian that basically says if a guy treats you bad its only cause he’s not interested. Oh he sugar coats it with you are great, move on but still the blame on you for someone elses bad behavior. I’m going upstairs right now and finding those cd’s and throwing them in the garbage!
SM
Do you mean Christian Carter’s stuff? I tried to apply some of his “tips” to the ex. Fail!
I agree and I know a lot of married 40 something moms who are reading the 50 Shades book fervently – as well as the Twilight series, which I find complete teenage silliness.
What´s with this schenario of women getting involved with dangerous sickos? One sweet mom confessed she was head over heels with the vampire character, how weird is that?
This Christian-guy you’re alluding to, SM, must be the same Christian-guy who is running the women’s side of the business of David D’Angelo who is the greatest PUA-guru. So yes, the garbage is where these tapes belong.
Learner, Teddie, yes that’s who it is. Total garbage and waste of money. I really dont think character changes so I highly doubt either of the authors I mentioned are having a nice relationship now, especially since they are prescribing their ‘brand’ as the model for other women to follow.
He’s running the womens side of the business? Nice…
I believe there is someone (is she real?) named Paige Parker that does the same thing / crossmarkets with them. barf. She actually describes how to pick up a guy in a bar by telling you exactly how long to look at him, when to bat your eyes, how many seconds you should smile etc. Confused the “what” out of me.
Millions of those self-help books aren’t self-help, they’re self-hurt. Read them if you want to be told a thousand different ways that you need to punish yourself for being born female.
So many of these books exist to make women dovetail with the PUA agenda, dictated by some kind of faux-earnest older brother type, or evil older sister, which is:
a) He’s okay, you’re not.
b) Get busy working on yourself. When you’ve finished that, start all over again because, frankly, your work is never done. No, he doesn’t need any work, but thanks for asking, and maybe you should seek professional help for your man-hating attitude. You’ll never get another man with that kind of man-hating attitude.
c) If you believe he treated you badly, you’re mistaken. He’s a guy. This is how guys act. He doesn’t owe you any apologies. You seriously need help with that man-hating attitude of yours.
d) Everything a man does is ultimately driven by his sexual needs. Yes, everything. He needs to behave like this, 24/7, from his 13th birthday til the day he dies. Do not question his behaviour. Do not interfere. Deal with it — my next book will tell you how to bottle up everything inside so you can still come through this looking like a lady, which is the important thing here.
e) Let’s get down to nuts and bolts. Whatever reason he gave you for dumping you isn’t the real reason. The real reason is that you’re not as hot to him as you used to be. So how do you like them apples? I’ve got other books to help you with that.
e) Next time around? You need to date down. Especially if you’re over the age of 26. All us frogs need kissing, girls, so put on that lipstick and get cracking.
I see myself breaking into bookshops all over the country in my pyjamas, sweeping garbage like that into the compactor and filling the empty shelves with Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl. That’s the only primer any woman needs these days.
On a serious note, when was the last time you saw a self-help book for MEN who have had their hearts callously shredded again and again by women?
Grizelda, Love this! I will put on my favourite pj’s and join you in your quest. Thanks for the laugh.
Griselda
So true. The message is simple.
1.boys will be boys and crappy behaviour is to be expected.
2. Lower your expectations, especially if you aren’t a 21 year old model. Your Market value is low and getting lower all the time.
The thing is this doesn’t actually reflect my real life experiences of dating/men – with the one major exception AC/MM experience. So I know that it is lies, or only true of a limited number of men.
I don’t hate men. (Well maybe a special one or two!)
True too that men don’t read self
help books. They’ve got that bit right anyhow.
Hahaaaaaaa – brilliant! Best. Description. Ever.
OMGosh Griz I laughed so hard I choked!
Jennifer
You might enjoy this: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/340987215
I totally agree with you about 50 Shades… and don’t even get me started on my Twilight rant. But sadly, I too would’ve eaten it up in my pre-BR days. In the midst of EU hell I used to watch ‘Pretty Woman’ (aka the Most Unrealistic Film Ever) to give myself hope, for heaven’s sake.
The thing about books and films and all fiction, though (when you come to think of it) is that they tend to be based on some unrealistic premise or unlikely event in the first place, otherwise they’d just be real life and you’d be as well going out and watching real people on the street.
A lot of the women in my office are really into the twilight stuff – Pinups of Rpatz and all – these are professional women in their 40s. AND they’re all reading 50 shades. Talk about dumbing yourself down. Brain rotting codswallop, never mind the dodgy messages. It makes Mills and Boon seem highbrow and emancipated!
Mymble,
that makes me glad to be working from home. Whatevere they are reading that’s their own business, but I take exception when they push it on me and putting me down for not reading this trash. I went to a book club, and, though most people (all different ages, men and women) mentioned more or less OK books they liked, when a 20-year old in high heels started talking about how she adores Twilight, guess what the debate was on for the next TWO HOURS? Concluded by being condescending to people older than them as one of the guys admitted he had a 15-year old. There was a chorus of “you are old.” So, so much for that book club and me, but I did wonder about the dynamics for a while as there were quite few educated and well read women in their 40s…
P
Quite sad really. It’s seen as being youthful, feminine, sexy to like this stuff. It shows you’re still fun, youre still a little girl at heart. Eew.
And open-minded, don’t forget the open-minded.
Bother with being open-minded is that it’s great when you’ve got enough inherent boundaries and structure in your life to keep you together. When you don’t, I’ve noticed, being open-minded means that your brains fall out of your ears.
I was open-minded when I was younger. Now I’ve been around long enough to have developed preferences! And to some people, that’s threatening. Oh well.
Mymble,
Even sadder is that I am not one to be too hoity-toity over high literature – the most sophisticated book on my bookshelf is probably The Confederacy Of Dunces.
Sorry if this is off-topic, but I was really disappointed at my attempts to broaden my social circle after my recent move.
I got told the same in quite an original way. My exEUM once sent me a link to some culinary editorial by one of his (female and married) friends that was basically a transcription of a conversation she had had with him about beers. In it, they made this supposedly witty comparison between beer and women, and the EUM said that you have to drink beer carefully because if you take it too seriously it can take over your life and ruin you. She asked him at some point if there was any woman in his life and he said that was a secret. At the end, she insisted asking if he was “having a beer” at that moment and he said he was actually having a coke.
Har har.
I got really mad when I read all this (never mind that it was kinda flirty) and told him I wasn´t a beer or a coke and was that the way he saw me too? Like he couldn´t take me seriously?
He immediately backtracked, saying I was exaggerating, it was just a funny conversation and acted like I was completely insane. He even got a bit offended.
It was such a clear red flag, I should´ve gone NC at that precise moment! He was telling me his version of It is what it is, and at the same time denying it when I reacted to that.
Ah yes I heard many of these standard euphemisms. A particular favourite was “you know my situation”. He stopped using that of course when his situation changed and his wife chucked him out. Then he was left with only the distance as his figleaf or get out of jail (relationship) card.
Thanks for the translations Natalie.
Also (said with sad face and in a portentous voice) “you need more than I can give you”.
Meaning; “I’m giving you crumbs only so don’t even think about asking for more; in fact I wish you’d go away and find someone else, because I don’t want to be the bad guy, and I can’t face any embarrassing displays of emotion. So I’ll pretend it’s all about me caring for your needs”.
Its beyond absurd really laughable and in my saner moments I do laugh. When I’m not feeling furious with myself for listening to all that rubbish and trying to work it out. I was totally confuzzled.
Oh, forgot a couple!
“You’ve really got your hooks in me.”
“You’re the girl of my dreams.”
“Why can’t we just say we’re dating?”
“I have trouble sleeping, that’s why I don’t like sharing my bed with someone on a regular basis.”
I will add some more:
“I have an aversion to the touch disorder.”
“My dog has a curfew and she can only sleep in her own bed.”
“My mom wants to go dancing and I have to watch the dog.”
I was told this one:
“No I can´t see you on saturday night because I´m thinking of writing a book”.
As always ur blogs are speaking to me. I presently in such a relationship for the past nine months who I have grown to care about deeply. He is 15 years my senior and initially I was taken by his charm, sense of humor,the sex and monetary offerings etc. Overtime, by his actions I was lead to believe that he wanted something more serious. Boy was I wrong! I barely see him but when I do he always gives me money that I never ask for. I yearn to see him but I no this is going absolutely no where. I struggle so much in falling into these type of situations which in the end is a very lonely,confusing and
painful.
Late Bloomer,
I will quote the psychologist I went to at the time:
“He is treating you like a whore.”
(In my case there was no money involved, even.)
For me, the problem was not just inherently ambiguous speech, but also lots of contradictory speech, lots of mixed messages.
Examples of what he said:
*I’m trouble.
*I’m extremely loyal and loving.
*I really, really like you. But protect your heart.
*You won’t put up with me forever.
*It really makes me angry that you always seem to waiting for the other shoe to drop.
*I am here for you and always will be, but maybe not in the way you want.
*I have fidelity issues but I think I just have not met the right person.
*I want to find a permanent relationship and get married again, this time forever.
*I have abandonment issues. It helps to know you are there for me.
*I have never met anyone like you.
*I adore you.
*Don’t pressure me for a commitment.
*Let’s make plans to go on a ski trip in March.
*I am going on a (solo) vacation to NYC in March.
*When we go to Seattle I want you to meet all my friends there.
*What makes you think you are going to Seattle with me?
*My heart is very open to you.
*(After 3 months)We need to have the “relationship talk” because I want to be in one with you.
*(after 4 months)You could really be the one.
*(after 5 months) Why do you think you are my girlfriend? We are just dating!
*”Girlfriend” is a label. Don’t assume some label has anything to do with how much I care for you.
*I can’t make a plan for next week. Why can’t you just be in the moment?
*I love how independent and confident you are!
*You are so fearful and needy.
*(after a great weekend) You are all kinds of fun! You give me so much energy!
*(after another great weekend) You run down my batteries. It’s hard to be around you.
*I love your innocence and positive perspective on life.
*You are such a Pollyanna!
*(last day of relationship) Other women express interest in me and I am open to it. But I love you.
And finally —
ME: have you been with other women while we have been together? HIM: I thought you were ok with that.
I did not press for clarification on this last one. I felt clarity was impossible at that point. I ended things, said that we could be friends but not more — I cared too much to be in a casual relationship. When he became engaged to someone else 3 weeks later, I wished him happiness via phone and went NC.
Out of context I know it is ridiculous and I appear to be the most idiotic woman on the planet. But I am not. I had never heard anything remotely like this before, and it took BR to connect the dots. And honestly, he’s a hard person to hate and could be kind; I think he is even more confused than I was. I do wish him well. But I wish myself well, even more!
Next time…there will be no next time!
Sally,
I think if you’re honest with yourself, you’ll see that he was telling who he was all along, but that you didn’t want to see. The guy was incapable and was showing red flags all over the place.
When someone says that you need to protect yourself from them, please listen. It will save much heartache.
Relationships should not be about ambiguity!
Allison –
You are absolutely right. No question about it. I did not want to see the flags. True, I had never encountered this type of thing before BUT I still saw the flags, and I rationalized and ignored and made excuses, etc. I wanted things to work out between us, at least for some indefinite unspecified time period. Lesson learned!
Thanks for keeping the record straight!
Sally,
I think we were all guilty of being big excuse makers!!!!
My lesson: If I have to make excuses for someone, it’s time to end the relationship.
Sally Jane… Like you I had never heard of BR , commitmentphobics, unavailable men blah, blah..It is confusing and with all the mixed messages you get confused. The part about him getting engaged 3 wks later, I just dont understand it…I remember occasionally mentioning marriage to my ex & he would turn white as a ghost. I thought it was because he had a horrid divorce & lost alot of money & assests so I rationalized his fear of it. Also, I remember when I caught him meeting someone behind my back, I was in a total state of confusion, wasnt sure what I was going to do and after having a long talk about everything as I was leaving I said “if I never see you again ” (because I wasnt sure I ever wanted too) and he cut me off with his reply “you will see me again, I LOVE YOU” really, YOU LOVE ME, but felt it was OK to meet woman behind my back..Honestly, sometimes I think he did love me as best he could love anyone being a EUM/commitmentphobic… Anway, went NC that day against his wishes. I have and never will regret going NC..I still get teary every now & again but am finally having alot more good days than bad. I am so thankful I found BR and regained my sanity. I get stronger & wiser everyday. I lover reading others post. I dont know if I will ever date again this has left such a huge scar on my heart. But I keep chugging along 🙂
Sally,
Connecting these dots *still* does not make a picture of anything remotely clear or readable emerge: it’s a giraffe! its a pair of shoes! it’s a bowl of toffee ice-cream!
It’s an assclown.:)
Aaaargh! You really got caught by ASSANOVA – FLUUUUUUUUUUSH!!
Don’t worry, I did equally idiotic things too. Horrific being put through the flip flap cycle!
Thanks TOA!
You made me laugh. First laugh I have had over this, believe it or not. So good to know I am not alone.
I’m so sorry you went through this.
I am a huge advocate for responsibility etc. but I do not think you need to take blame for this. This man, although kind etc at times, sounds nuts. I say this because he sounds a lot like my ex. So kind so sweet and loving and then poof, a crazy mean person who would say things that had no resemblance to the person I was dating.
I’m curious, is he still with this other person he is “engaged” to?
Mine was bringing me gifts, singing me love songs, and dancing with me in his living room, taking me out to dinner etc.. the night before we broke up. At dinner when he asked if I was having fun and liked it there, I said yes, but I like you more. His response was “good, because you are stuck with me” loads of kisses and hugs etc.. Following day, acted out and was a total asshole and that night telling me he wanted to change things.. I was devastated and so confused. He held me all night, kissed me goodbye in the morning, called me honey and said he would talk to me later. Came home and told me he didn’t think this was the right direction for him. Broke up with me. When I tried to leave he started to hug me and tried to kiss me. I felt like I was going insane.
btw my guy was not married. In case I’m responding to an ex mm posting.
Angel,
I think the situation was different. Her guy had been ambiguous all along, it sounds like yours changed overnight.
Thank you for the reply. I would love to know if anyone else had a similar experience.
I just felt there was a similarity in the way these men say one thing one day and something totally different the next. It’s crazy making.
Hi Angelfish —
Thanks for your comment. It helps. Yes, my ex married 6 weeks after the engagement, about 9 weeks after we broke up. It was very hard for me.
I think my ex was definitely a bit “different”. I know his father was bipolar and he had a rocky childhood. Was he actually crazy? Well, he seemed solid and responsible in some ways, and very impulsive and inconsistent and flakey in others. This is part of why it was all so confusing.
I do think, in my case, Allison is right. I did have red flags and warnings, but in my wishful thinking I focused on the good stuff only, and I got burned.
hey everybody, I just finally read all the comments in the internet dating post one. So, thanks for the laughs. I really loved hearing all the ideas for filters…Since verbal amibiguity and internet dating seemed so entwined I have a modest proposal of the Swiftian kind: We need to create a BRsingles website! Our moniker could be “BRsingles; not for the fainthearted” We could create apps that would block ambiguous language in emails! We could create lengthy questionaires where people would have to elucidate how they live their values…most importantly we could eliminate the bathroom-cell-phone-shirtless-pic! We could only let men join who have several female reference letters and who never use verbal yoga! Okay fine, fewer men would want to post on it if those avenues were blocked but still it was a good idea…;)
LOL!! LOVED the moniker, DQ.
We could also use:
“BR Singles: What the f*ck did you just say?”
Or this one:
“BR Singles: Don’t pull that sh*t on me, fool.”
Or, more eloquently:
“BR Singles: Only the honest need apply.”
DQ & Revolution, LOL! So good.
make me snort!
“BR Singles: What the f*ck did you just say?”
BR Singles. Just one question, “What’s wrong with you?”
revs:
“only the honest need apply” wouldn’t work, since every guy who has ever lied to me held his own honesty in the highest regard.
the recent AC couldn’t tolerate it when i said he lied and that i couldn’t believe i believed him. he got really mad, “i’m not a liar! i never lied to you!” so i said “oh, excuse me, you made statements that you inSISted i believe that,within 48 hours, proved untrue.” he hung up on me.
CC, good point. Ah, those paragons of virtue. Now THAT is a case of “thou doth protest too much”! 😉
hah, good one;0!
Awesome DQ and Revolution!
I was thinking about a BR Meetup, like there are meetups about books etc. But, overall, many meetups are very lame, and I see more and more from the organizers that various types of assaults happen.
Nothing like a good assault. I’ll bring cheesecake! 😉
I don’t think a sexual assault is funny when someone had to call the police, and, consequently, the meetup organizer posted a warning on that particular meetup site that this type of behavior will not be tolerated, that the meetup is not a “hook up” group, nor a singles meetup. This happened about last year, and just a couple of weeks ago a member had to be banned for a similar behavior from another meetup group. This was a topical meetup, not a dating one.
P.,
I agree, not funny. I was just commenting, lightly, on what I thought was a sort of funny comment relating to BR, as that’s not what I’d expect from a group of such lovely ladies.
Didn’t mean to offend.
Hey my divorce is final earlier than i expected. I’ve been single the past few days and didn’t even know it. I am obviously temporarily EU, but A BRmeetup would be a great place to talk about relationships.
I got married at 19 and now i’m 37 with son17 lives with me.
Just started going out and I am attracting women who are obviously EU. Thanks to BR I can spot it in others and especially myself.
It is like walking in a minefield and i am not even dating, just barely starting to go dancing and meeting women.
No online dating, No facebook, no texting, and my absolute boundry NO SEX… for as long as i am EU i am being super careful. thanks everyone
If you’re for real I think that’s brill. No sex for an EU man is how I am as an EU woman. If someone doesn’t want a relationship, then in my opinion it isn’t fair to lead people on. So good on ya ‘cos I think (some) people are too quick to rebound than to sort out the clutter before committing again.
Wow! After reading all the comments in context of what is happening with the head of the CIA, I think I finally get it. People make mistakes. Giant, huge, stupid, incomprehensible mistakes. I’m moving toward forgiveness. If the head of the CIA can eff-up royally, my total, giant huge, eff-up pales in comparison, not to excuse my irresponsibility. I’m starting to see that I’m not the first one or the only one to eff up. Can you imagine all the top brass in the US trying to de-code the emails between the General Petreuas and Broadwell? Perhaps, the US top brass should read BR for assistance or contact Natalie!
Natalie,
“when you’re dealing with someone who uses the non-speak of ambiguous…statements to halt discussion and essentially dodge what could be an…emotionally mature conversation…they’re often selective so they have no problem articulating themselves when they want something from you or can articulate themselves in other areas of their life, but when they’re in a situation, often of their own making, they’ll keep throwing crumbs of communication.”
This describes the exMM to a tee. He always claimed he was “not very good at communication”, but when I heard him talking with colleagues about work matters, he was quite articulate, thank you very much! Looking back now, I realize what crappy crumbs he was actually throwing me, and I was savouring every molecule.
While I am glad to be far from his ambiguity, and committed to NC, I had a bit of an “incident” this week. A woman in my night course was talking about getting some expensive software for free from a guy she met at a conference. I asked what his name was, and the exMM’s name came blurting out of her smiling mouth. It caught me off guard! I asked her a few vague questions about the conference, and this guy she met, and then caught myself so I didn’t hear anything that would upset me. It was too late. I started to feel nauseated, almost like the room was spinning. I really thought I was going to throw up. I felt sick for hours.
I didn’t know what this feeling was. Sure, there was some jealousy even though I know I don’t want him back. He had invited me to go to that conference and I had refused after realizing who he really was. The woman said her (female) friend backed out of the conference at the last minute, so she had to pay the full price for the hotel room, and so she hung out with exMM for the entire 3 days. I imagined them sleeping together,as I knew he would try to do. But it wasn’t just jealousy that I felt – it was like I had just seen a badly mangled animal that had just been hit by a car or something. After feeling so strong about working on me, trying to think about *him* less, this reaction I had shocked me. My therapist has even ended my sessions as she said I am doing well and have good insight. And now this. What is wrong with me?
Learner
I totally get how you would feel about that. Knowing what they are very likely to be up to is one thing, but actually being confronted with it is very traumatic. Ughh. You had feelings for him , that’s not a crime! You’d be inhuman if you didn’t. Ignorance is bliss where people like him are concerned and it’s
really better not to know. Its the perfect illustration of what NC is for. She is roadkill, or she will be if she allows herself to get involved, but unfortunately if shes going to do it she will regardless of anything you could tell her.
I got the “I’m not very good at communication” line too. Usually after he’d come out with some particularly insulting/obscure bit of claptrap and Id for once got annoyed. He was a university professor and had no communication difficulties whatsoever. All that meant was “oh dear I’ve said what I actually think, I’ll just ignore you for a while”.
Mymble,
Thanks for understanding my response. “Ignorance is bliss where people like him are concerned and it’s
really better not to know.” This is so true! You know, I used to have a “fake” facebook account, which I know sounds obsessive, but I set it up to see how he would respond to a new woman suggesting they meet up. I pretended to be a woman at work who found him attractive (a “fake” woman). He went for it! He suggested she discreetly introduce herself to him at work to see where things might lead. He added her as a friend on facebook. He sent her info about movies and singers she liked on FB (the same MO he used with me). He gave her a “code phrase” to say when they met. Well, when *I* said that code phrase, he just said he knew it was me. Right! That was 2 years ago, and I should have flushed right then, but I didn’t. He insisted that he was “just curious” and “didn’t actually do anything with her.” Anyway, I deactivated this FB account, but didn’t “unfriend” him before I did that. So I always knew I could check in on him if I ever wanted. After this incident at night school, I went in and finally defriended him on this fake account, and I will now deactivate it for good. I saw in the newsfeed he had added a picture he took at the conference. Yuck! After I got rid of this final method of potentially “checking up” on him, I felt great relief. Thank goodness!
Oh, and yes, your translation of “I’m not a good communicator” sounds spot on! “My ex” teaches too, and so of course he can communicate! Actually, I have found a lot of similarities between our exMM’s. The only difference seems to be that yours has more than one kid – mine has one son.
Your line about this new woman being potential roadkill is also insightful. Maybe I could see her getting hurt as badly as I was, and was feeling for her vicariously. All I can say is, I wish her luck! Thanks for your reply Mymble xo
Lerner,
Does this guy’s wife know about all of his outside activity? If not, I feel for her!!!!
Allison,
According to the exMM: “my wife has no idea that I have been unfaithful.”
I feel for her, too, and I would not want to trade places with her in a million years!
Oh Learner, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you. That was an awful thing to happen and I think it’s triggered all those painful feelings. I remember feeling insanely jealous when reading on FB about the exMM’s exploits at a conference that I had originally planned to be at. It caused me lots of pain and distress imagining him with other women, although I had absolutely no idea whether he was intimate with one or not. I think that jealousy arises from a fear of loss. You know on one level that the relationship is over, but what your perfectly normal reaction suggests is that you are still processing the loss. It’s completely understandable. You were with this man for a long time and it’s still early days, not even six months yet. Be gentle with yourself. Treat this as another opportunity for growth by reflecting on what is at the heart of the jealousy. If it is something to do with loss then what have you really lost? An awful, disrespectful, cheating, AC and that man my friend isn’t good enough for a wonderful woman like you. You have been badly hurt and are still on the painful road to understanding and self-awareness. You have come a long, long way, but it takes time. Sending a great big hug your way. xxxx
Lilly,
Thanks for thinking there is nothing wrong with me!
“It caused me lots of pain and distress imagining him with other women, although I had absolutely no idea whether he was intimate with one or not.” Well, actually, I don’t know if he was intimate with this one, either, but I know the opportunity was there, as she had her own hotel room. I also know she first met him at this conference (in September), and she has seen him since, as she said he gave her a disc with the software just a couple of weeks ago.
“I think that jealousy arises from a fear of loss. You know on one level that the relationship is over, but what your perfectly normal reaction suggests is that you are still processing the loss.” I think you are right about this. Yes, I was jealous, but it was more than that. If jealousy was my biggest issue, the wife and the original OW should get more of my concern. It was more that I sensed this woman felt fondly towards the exMM. She is just his type – easy-going, thin, shares his interests. I am letting my imagine run wild a little, but I would say that if the exMM had his way, she would have become his lover. It all depends on HER boundaries, I suppose.It almost felt like when I heard her say his name, I was taken back to the instant he confessed about the OOW. Like a kick in the stomach, like my greatest fears had come true. Like a flashback.
I am glad you can relate to some of this. You are right, this is all relatively fresh, we must both be gentle with ourselves and continue our growth. Thank you NC sister xo
Aw learner – that’s a cruddy awful sort of coincidence to have to experience (and it really IS!). Put that on top of the fact that your ideas about relationships and life in general have been going under a seismic change over the past few months and it’s no wonder that you feel awful and a bit ill.
Being healthy won’t prevent you from experiencing pain and regret over past events. What it WILL do (hopefully!) is stop those feelings from propelling you into a similar/worse situation. So, with a bit of luck, this is the last time that you’ll have to live through that particular and specific sort of awfulness :). xxx
Oh Yoghurt, yes, such a horrible, unexpected co-incidence! It really did come from left field, and I almost felt like I dreamed it as she said his name!
“Being healthy won’t prevent you from experiencing pain and regret over past events. What it WILL do (hopefully!) is stop those feelings from propelling you into a similar/worse situation.” What a wonderful thought! Yes – it would have been awful if this incident had caused me to want to re-contact the exMM, or to otherwise do something unhealthy. It didn’t. It made me want to strengthen NC even more! Thank you for your insight. Hugs to you.
There was this MM at work with whom I had (luckily) dodged an one-night-stand years ago (before reading BR). About a year ago, unfortunately I joined his team. From then on, he kept trying to “check back in”, despite my struggle to maintain workplace NC.
What made things worse was the fact that he had (apparently) started an affair with the other relatively young woman on our team, my married coworker “Eve” whom I can’t stand anyway. She regularly bitches at me and other female coworkers for ridiculous reasons while sucking up to every powerful male, talking to those guys in her special “little girl’s voice”. She’s married to a guy 30 years her senior who inherited millions, btw.
Watching those two “lovebirds” (the MM and married Eve) was a very strange experience, especially with my newfound BR knowledge. I was hesitant to condemn their behavior, wondering whether maybe they were wiser than I somehow??? Maybe their “love” was ok for some reason I didn’t understand (I used to wonder back then)?
At the same time, the MM drove me crazy with his attempts to “check back in” with me. Once, I had to leave the office in a mad rush at night because I had had a bad day (for reasons I can’t remember) and this toxic guy seemed all too eager to provide “a shoulder to cry on”.
Luckily, the MM has left our company a few months ago. What a relief (but I still have to deal with Eve who is a nuisance in her own right).
So, yeah, Learner, I can relate! And I agree with yoghurt, too!
Ellyb,
” I was hesitant to condemn their behavior, wondering whether maybe they were wiser than I somehow???”
It doesn’t sound like this pair is wiser than you. In fact, quite the opposite – they are cheating on others, and meanwhile he was trying to line you up as an alternate option? Harem much?
Good for you that you kept your boundaries strong around the potential one night stand. Seems YOU are the wise one here! Hugs xo
Learner, I’m sorry to hear, and it must have been awful. You do realise how unlucky that whole incident was? You did nothing to put yourself in the way of harm, and harm came to you instead. That’s truly unfortunate. Your defenses were ambushed.
I’m not going to mince words — I think it indicates that you probably suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of what happened to you emotionally, and this was a very raw flashback for you. From what I read on BR, there is a fair number number of women here who also suffer from PTSD to one degree or another (I count myself amongst them). Do not minimise what you felt then. You were gracious enough to cover it up in that very hour, and make it out of there without screaming, but don’t bottle this up. You want to cry about it for four hours when you’re alone, you go right ahead and cry for four hours to let it out. I think you might find some more fortification in re-reading some of Natalie’s old posts. And whilst you’re best focusing on yourself and improving day to day, as you’ve been doing, it’s still worth reminding yourself again and again that — dammit! — he is the one who hurt you, he is the one at fault, he is the one who took so much from you with the crummiest dry crumbs in return while promising you cupcakes later, he is the one who said/did all those things that caused you pain. And if he tries to hook up with another woman, including this one, he’s going to play out exactly the same thing again. You know this to be true.
Out of curiosity, were you tempted to reveal to this woman the truth about how you also know him?
Griz,
OMG, I think you may be onto something here. I just looked up signs and symptoms of PTSD, and they really seem to fit! I have had intrusive re-experiencing of the original “trauma” of discovering he had been using and controlling me. Nightmares? Yup! as recently as last week. General anxiety and irritability? Yup! (but I have tended towards anxiety since childhood anyway). And yes – I did experience this revelation as a kind of “flashback”! It felt almost exactly as I felt when I first found I was part of his harem, and not exactly the “love of his life” whom he had not met at the right time (if he had met me before his ice-queen wife, he would have married me, don’t you know?).
Wow. Lots to consider. And YES, YES, YES, I want to tell this woman what he is like. I managed not to let her know i knew him (I think), but I have been imagining trying to “rescue” her from him (not that she has requested this, and I realize it could be considered condescending towards her to think this). BUT, he is such an effective liar, so smooth, so convincing. I have imagined taking her aside in a class break next week, and saying something like “I didn’t say anything at the time, but I actually know x, and he is not who he appears to be, so please be careful”, or something like that. But I don;t want her going back to him and mentioning my name, and telling him I’d uttered this cryptic warning.
I have not ruled this idea out, but I fear it would do no good! Dontcha think?
Hey there Learner, I wouldn’t get into trying to rescue the woman. It will keep you tied up in the drama. Plus, you don’t really know if she needs rescuing, right? Maybe she is somebody who can smell a cheating MM from a mile away. On the other hand, almost everybody I knew tried to rescue me and I didn’t listen because I knew better, I could handle it. It’s a no win for you. That’s what is important, YOU. She’s going to do what she is going to do, despite your cryptic warning. Also, rein in that imagination. You don’t even know if she is giving him the time of day. And if she is, what does that have to do with you? YOU, YOU, YOU…eyes on the prize. I’d just steer clear of her during your next class. Stop the ambiguity.
Be strong girl.
Learner, glad to help, and I hope knowing more about PTSD can lead you along the road to recovery better. My own PTSD is triggered by anything that reminds me of this summer — including sadly, any imagery sounds or topics from the 2012 Olympics, and as I live in London it’s hard to avoid. Every time I see the Olympic logo or hear the lovely song ‘Calibans Dream’ from the opener, I suddenly turn into a terrified infantry Corporal hunkered down in a trench in the middle of a heavy bombardment at the Somme.
It’s hard to judge about whether or not to inform his next target. On one hand, you don’t want to look unbecoming. On the other hand, this is now these men operate — they rely on OUR sense of decency and decorum NOT to interfere with their operations on other women by not exposing them for what they are. Tough call.
Oh Grizelda I have the same trigger! Ex narc was heavily involved in Olympics and our first “proper” date was in London during jubilee celebrations. I feel I will never escape the reminders for the rest of my life and that they will always trigger thoughts (and worse, feelings) of ex.
Learner
I really wouldn’t warn her.
For one thing it may not be necessary.
It may have the undesired effect of increasing her interest in him, if she has any. Human nature is a funny thing and seeing him as a “bad boy” “man of mystery” or
something may make her curious.
For your own sake, too, it isn’t dignified to involve yourself. If he finds out he will construe it as a sign of continuing emotional involvement, and a big ego stroke.
Ultimately if he is looking for more FBGs he will find them, unfortunately there are many. You’re better than that.
But I do sympathise, it is horrible. I’m sure the exMM is going about his merry way.
runnergirl, Grizelda and Mymble,
Thanks for your further thoughts, advice and sharing. I will look more into PTSD – Griz I am sorry to hear about your Olympic trigger – the Olympics seem to be ubiquititous at times! I have decided not to say anything to this potential new OW – it makes me tense just thinking about talking to her about him, and ruuner, you are right, I must focus on me, not him. And Mymble, I don’t want to inadvertently push her into his arms, or to give him an ego stroke once removed! I am switching the focus back *away* from him now! Thank you 🙂
Aw hugs Learner. Nothing is wrong with you in any way. You were simply blindsided by info about the double cheater. It happened to me too. It wasn’t like I was ever going back but it hurt to hear that he was carrying on with life as usual. My imagination kicked in as well.
It’s okay to have feelings. Just ride them out and feel them.
The poor woman probably experienced 3 days of total ambiguity…remember? IF, IF, IF she ends up settling for ambiguity and crumbs, we know the ending to that fairy tale.
Nothing is wrong. You have feelings! That’s the good news. Imagine a life without feelings…oh that would be the life of a double cheating MM! Nevermind. Keep the focus on you and try to rein in that imagination. I have an imagination and I have to rein it in everyday. You are fine.
runner,
Yes, you are right, I must just feel these feelings, learn the lesson from them, and keep on the road to recovery. I do NOT want to end up a person without feelings! I wish mine quite so intense sometimes, but I am a sensitive person, and I don’t think there’s anything I can do to change that. OK, I am taking your lead and reining in that imagination right now (although I think what I have imagined may actually be possible. Whatever, though, right? It’s none of my business now. It’s the wife’s problem). Yes, I am fine. And so are you. Thanks runner
“I wish mine *weren’t* so intense sometimes…
Learner …In my heart I know I would have had the same reaction as you did. I dont want him back but I also dont want to know anything about his life. Sometimes I find myself thinking about his new life with his new girlfriend and I have to STOP myself because really I have no idea if their even still together. I dont need nor want to know anything about his life. ITS none of my business and well its still painful to think of him with someone else 15mths later..ughhh. I know he wasnt that special and all but honestly It still hurts sometimes…
kit-kat
Jeez, you have to put up with knowing he *did* go on to someone new after you. That’s gotta suck. You say it still hurts after 15 months, huh? Bummer! Sorry to hear it still affects you that way. I am interested in knowing what method you use to STOP thinking about him/them. I have been trying to replace memories I have of the ex with new ones, but sometimes I just can’t seem to get him out of my head!
I do not know for sure if ex narc is seeing someone else but he probably is. I still think of him a huge percentage of the time. However, I DO NOT think of him being happy with another woman. I try to imagine little scenarios where he is very UNHAPPY and very ALONE and SICK OF HIMSELF as he is REJECTED and experiences FAILURE. I know it sounds horrid but if I have to think of him at all, and I really would rather not, then I damn well am not going to think of him living the life of riley. Hope this helps.
Kit Kat, I know how this is… I too am about 15 months after the breakup and I still think about him, because unfortunately I have to work with the damn fool AND I have to see him around town with his 15 month girlfriend. Yep, they are still going strong, and look pretty happy to me.
Instead of wondering is he happy, is he miserable, etc., I have opted for the “worst case” scenario (which has actually turned into the best case for me), and that is to simply assume he IS indeed blissfully happy, in love, she is the best thing that ever happened to him, all is rosy in his la la land, and so on. Because if I can be ok with THAT, it becomes clearer and clearer that his life is none of my business, his life has nothing to do with me, I can let go of the resentment and vengeful feelings, and really focus on ME. If I can sit quietly with the thought that “ok, he’s really happy and has totally forgotten me” and then think “SO WHAT?!” it’s actually a relief. I’m finally sick to death and bored beyond belief with him and this whole issue. Let him go on to whatever destiny awaits him. Not my business. Not my problem.
Not saying I can do this 100% of the time, but when I can, I am SO much happier!
Sadder but Wiser – thank you for this. When you said, Instead of wondering is he happy, is he miserable, etc., I have opted for the “worst case” scenario (which has actually turned into the best case for me), and that is to simply assume he IS indeed blissfully happy, in love, she is the best thing that ever happened to him, all is rosy in his la la land, and so on. Because if I can be ok with THAT, it becomes clearer and clearer that his life is none of my business, his life has nothing to do with me, I can let go of the resentment and vengeful feelings, and really focus on ME.,
I felt like saying, “thank you JESUS” and I am not religious.
I actually left my job that I worked with AC at, and thank goodness because I was not strong enough to deal with him moving in with her 3 months after I went NC with him – (he was still showing up at my house until then) and I did the worst thing ever – called her and told her I wished the best for her and that she didn’t get her heart broken… because I secretly hoped he would, and it would validate me, and all the people I worked with would come running and tell me that he didn’t last more than 3 months with her and so on… ALAS what a fancy fairytale. I opted for what you said instead. And now I wish for him to be happy, and that she is the PERFECT woman for him and it is freeing me EVERY DAY. I feel lighter. Thank you.
Victorious and Sadder but Wiser,
Great points. I think I may try imagining the exMM being fed up with the way he has been living his life lately. Yes, his destiny awaits, and if he has any conscience, hopefully he will become a better man. For himself and for his wife and son. I don’t want to have anything more to do with him (except. of course, when I HAVE to, for work – but that’s not for a few months). Here’s to US becoming happier people!
I also LOVE this sadder 🙂 Especially the “yeah… so what?” part.
God, i need to get there too! I also work with mine and though I know very little about his new GF, I am torturing myself for sure about how he is taking her to Thanksgiving dinner and will show up with her on his arm for Christmas and all the while he said it was “too new” last year with me and “scared after his ex got so close to his family” for Christmas. Even when I offered an intimate Christmas Eve he managed to stand me up. I went NC on him for the next 4 days and had told him to take a run and a jump but he came back with some really ridiculous excuse about not checking with his mom and being “in trouble” with her about missing Christmas Eve with his father who just got over cancer… yeeaaaaah I’m a sucker. SMH
learner
I am so sorry that you had to go through that; there is NOTHING wrong with you!
You just had a moment of trauma and the natural physical reaction to it-nothing more and nothing less. Many people, myself included, get nauseous under those super horrible moments of stress and realization. You are just having that experience; it is very normal and not surprising, given the circumstance. ((hugs:)))
aw, thanks dancingqueen
Yes, I can see getting nauseated under stress. But I can’t understand being quite THIS stressed after 5 ish months of NC. And it wasn’t just nausea, it was almost vertigo – like the room was about to spin. Hard to explain, and I am probably sounding dramatic right now. Thanks for the vote that I am normal though, lol. I guess I just have to go a little easier on myself. Hugs back at you (((DQ)))
i have done the analyzing of all communication. i clearly remember meeting up with him after not having seen him for 2 weeks and he sent me a few text messages wondering where i was (train was a few minutes delayed) and i noticed that he didn’t sign off with is usual ‘xo’. at that time i thought it was a bit weird, but i didn’t want to be paranoid about it, because i seriously had no reason to be. up until then things had been great.
but looking back, that was the day he started withdrawing from me. i can see it very clearly now. he didn’t kiss me like he used to, he didn’t hug me like he used to. i chalked it up on him having an ‘off day’. how do you distinguish between paranoia and intuition? (sorry if this is off topic.)
Natashya,
I think you’re right. His guilt at continuing to lead you on even though he had already decided to end the relationship is what prevented him from putting in ‘xo’ — he was trying to make himself feel a little better, as if his two-tonne lie of leading you on a bit more was somehow counterbalanced by four ounces of ‘truth’.
I know that women analyse things like that, but when someone says that guys don’t analyse things like that, I don’t believe it for one moment! My ex signed off ‘xx’ EVERY TIME. If he was on the move and texting, and it was one of the rare occasions he’d hit send too early, it’d immediately be followed by another text ‘PS xx’. Yes, it meant something. Whenever I was flying off on holiday or to see family, he’d habitually increase the breadcrumb trail because he’d be a little jealous and worried. Two years ago I was in the airport lounge about to jet off to Thailand to do some volunteer work with rescue elephants — it was very early in the morning on Xmas Eve. The text I received with a loving bon voyage didn’t have ‘xx’ after it but ‘XXX’. Yes, it meant something. And his dumping me by email? ‘xx’, only because naturally he hoped I wouldn’t disappear (as I actually have done), but that he could move me to the optional shelf.
You’re right to notice things like that. Changes in behaviour reveal everything.
thanks grizelda, it’s funny i even noticed back then, because it was my first experience with an EUM of that calibre and i had no idea he was EUM.
looking back, there’s more signs of course. he was very heavy on the ‘baby, sweetie’ thing in email, but NEVER said it to me in person. actually, he did once. just a few days after the absence of xo ‘incident’. we woke up and i told him good morning, sweetheart and he replied with good morning….. a second of silence and then a very forced ‘gorgeous’. that was the one and only time. it did register with me as well at the time and was followed by a lot of very strange non verbal communication. i turned a blind eye, because we were on holiday and i was so in love with him.
i usually totally ruminate over things, but i didn’t then. just tonight i flushed a guy i had met online. i found out he was still living with the ex, 3 years after their ‘split’. perhaps the universe sent me this guy to test me. he was flushed in an instant. my BS detector is in full force now. never again will i ignore those red flags. sorry for all the people who have stock in kleenex. i’ve cried enough over some EUM for this lifetime and the next.
Natashya
Firstly good for you for flushing someone.
It is in the small details that you can pick up symptons of larger problems.
I picked up from a text where he was actually too friendly and nice to me that he had cheated on me there were other little things but that one text confirmed it. Though it was still difficult to hear it when he fessed up.
Though it has knocked my ‘gut feeling’ about things I tend to get too paranoid now with other situations.(not to do with him just people in general)
I agree it is hard to distinguish between what is being paranoid and what is intuition…
I got these lines plus a few others added by commenters. My ex sure was ready with the lines when she decided to show her true colors. My personal favorites were…
I adore you.
If we start dating and it doesn’t work, I can have you in my life in some capacity.
I must be too used to sleeping by myself.
Why are you so good to me?
You’re the most amazing man I’ve ever known.
I need things light and simple.
It’s grey between us.
Do you trust me?
You’re not at my level. (Followed by) I’m not at your level.
My situation hasn’t changed.
I wish I can be the woman you want.
I’m just a scared little girl.
I want you to invade my space then my boundaries aren’t being respected.
I’ve dated guys with money and no substance. You have substance and heart. Followed by the occasional I hate you speech. And then apologizing for being a jerk.
And the kicker was “I don’t know what to do with you.”
I’ve been reading BR for some time now and my eyes have been slowly opening. After I decided to get real and stop making excuses for her, these articles really started to speak. I don’t blame myself for her behavior anymore and I’m looking forward to meeting a quality woman. Thanks Natalie.
And to the rest of the women here going thru hard times with these jerks, there are great guys that are sitting around saying that they haven’t met you yet.
539
539,
It’s grey between us. Hmm, nice. Almost poetic — I’m getting a real Beat Generation/Jack Kerouac vibe there, with a soupcon of Terrence Malick.
Sorry to make light of it, but I’m grateful for your comment which proves that women too will conjure up any set of words when feeling guilty about taking things you’ve offered (your time, your emotions, your affection, your life basically) which they knew at that point they no longer earned nor deserved.
539; ick! I am sooooooo ashamed that that awful woman shares my gender! we are not all crazy like that:)!!! so sorry that you had to go through that, what an assclownette!
I know not all women are crazy. I know some good ones. I won’t base the dealings of one assclownette(love it) on a whole gender.
539
Hi! really confused here. I have always thought the whole point was to see what happens since people unfold, so I don’t see what’s wrong if a man after 2 or 3 months doesn’t know yet if he wants to commit to me. I wouldn’t know either! That’s not being ambiguous, that’s being cautious and fair! Or is it not? Eager to hear everyone’s opinion!
Fair point.
I think it’s the difference between saying “I don’t know you very well yet but I’d like a relationship with you based on what I DO know, so I’d like to get to know you more”
and
“I don’t really think that I want a relationship with you – or anybody – and I certainly don’t want to have to commit to putting effort in, but stick around anyway because, hey, you’re filling the time.”
Louisa,
In my case it was not 2-3 months, but 9 months – He would have strung it along forever. I am thinking that most of the posters on BR were in something long term, but were hearing the same ambiguity and nonsense.
You can NOT be in a relationship long-term, as well – I was not in one for eighteen months (and some)
Been thinking further… I don’t think that this post is about the difference between a good honest bloke who wants to be with you and treat you properly and a good honest bloke who DOESN’T want to be with you but still treats you properly.
It’s about the difference between a good honest bloke and a not-good, dishonest bloke. Good honest blokes who aren’t interested won’t let you carry on thinking that they are. And if they’re spieling these lines then they’re both not interested AND dishonest.
Louisa
He and you at two months can commit to monogamy, responsibility,honesty and treating each other well, with a view to marriage or at least the foreseeable future. It may not sound like much but when you have it, you will see that it,s very different to not committed.
I think the same way, but it’s different when you are with someone who is showing signs of openness, honesty, and dating at a normal pace. Someone who is moving in the right direction even if it is slower etc.. The frogs out there, who a lot of people on here are talking about, will start to show loads of signs, coming on too strong, then of hesitation, conflicting remarks and behavior. There is a real difference between these two types of people. The problem is that empathetic and loving people will cut a lot of these frogs more slack than they deserve. This digs us deeper into a hole that we cannot get out of later. The idea is to be aware of the differences so you can protect yourself regardless of the outcome. I wish I had.
hope that makes sense.
Thanks Rev. My sis in the fight against AC’s! I like tht one! LOL 🙂
What you’re saying is right & sometimes ppl listening is all we need. I feel a little guilty for just venting like that but it’s precisely that sort of mixed emotion (& that’s just the tip of a titantic proportioned iceberg) which I’m going to have to find a way to process to move forward in a healthy way. I don’t want to carry negative baggage from this guy forward into my future r’ships. I also want to ensure that this is the last time I ever permit myself to become involved in such an unhealthy situation. I already know that the person I am REALLY angry with is MYSELF. I am kicking myself for having been such a fool. Me, with so much self awareness, so much therapy behind me, so much knowledge of my patterns of behaviour, so much practice at learning to love myself over more than two decades of bloody hard work on myself. And what do I do? Something as foolish as this? My only choice is not to make itlany worse by continuing to beat myself up & to instead consciously CHOOSE self forgiveness. I know the weaknesses which were at play in my life when he reappeared in my life after all those years. I can rattle them off exactly. One, two & three. Not surprisingly (get this) they are the EXACT SAME ONES which were at play when he entered my life the first time around!!! No cooincidence there!!!!!! So, this in effect, has been a deeply humbling experience for me. I have been reminded of my failings. They have the capacity, left unchecked, to be deadly. This is really no laughing matter & serious business for me.
You & Sushie are also right that he did care about me. I know he did. But it was in a very selfish & dysfunctional way. I don’t need or want that sort of ‘care’ in my life. It’s toxic. He was a user. He used & played me very badly this second time around (as opposed to when we were first a cpl 20 yrs ago). The harsh truth is I was not special to him because that role was well & truely filled by his many addictions.
As for meeting with the OW I will ice this idea for now. I doubt I would get the truth from her anyway. His sister tells me she is an alcoholic (surprise surprise) & when I contacted her there were things she told me then which I knew to be untrue, but I let them slide, as I was just wanting to confirm were they together or not & to leave it there. According to her, she apparently, is thinking *I* was the OW! Pigs effin ass! He lived in a different state to me though so it’s difficult to know the truth of what actually went on.
Also re depression it’s good you’re looking after your eating, resting & allowing yrself to feel when you can. I too am battling depression atm. Not due to the dead ex AC but physical health issues. Studies show that a combination of counselling & medication work best in treating depression so if you haven’t already, depending on how bad things are, consider talking with your Dr about it & elore yr options. No-one should feel they have to endure depression alone.
Hugs Sushie & Rev x
Self-forgiveness is the order of the day, isn’t it Teach. Shelve those “I shoulda known better”s. Gotta love it when we’re too smart for our own good. We are the front row audience to our own f*ck-ups and we know EXACTLY why we did what we did, and repeated it. That’s when the self-flagellation starts, because we’re SMART CHICKS and we can’t understand how we coulda been so STUPID. Join the club, honeybunch. It’s called being human. Though I do concede the point that, at times, it enters a more serious dimension (re: lives-even just yours-are involved)to resolving these things in ourselves and our relationships.
Don’t feel guilty for venting. We all do it. Natalie has given us a safe place (with boundaries of course) to figure all of this stuff out. And to gather different perspectives that may helps us view our situations and ourselves from a less-charged observer. I know you’ve done that for me, hon. (Read: Pollyanna.) 🙂
As for my depression, I hear you on the meds and counseling, Teach. Depression has been the major AC in and out of my life–an uncouth, sloppy houseguest who invites himself in, eats stuff out of my fridge, and collapses on my couch for weeks at a time. However, due to my few early experiences with the ineptness of the US medical system, I realized that I had to have my own back (because they obviously didn’t), and so I created my own “lifestyle cocktail” through years of personal research on the brain, body (glands, etc.), mental disorders, food and it’s effect on the brain, you name it. It’s my own well-constructed army against depression.
As for counseling, I’ve found (not to sound elitist) that at times, I’ve been more well-versed than the mental health professionals (who have readily admitted this to me) about depressive disorders. So it’s not that I don’t think they have good info, it’s just a sense of “been there, done that.”
Anyway, this is off-topic (Sorry, Nat. I’m done.) And I also hope that this doesn’t offend anyone who is on meds and/or seeing a counselor. I do concede that these are effective for some, and at certain times, but just not for me at this point in my life. However, I’m not completely naive: if I did start getting out the razor blades, I would seek some help. Thankfully, it’s never been anywhere close to that.
Okay, this is where I end this little saga. Lol. But just to say: thanks, Teach. And you’re right: We are all in this together!
I’m so upset today, I took a Valium to calm my anxiety and after just a few short minutes I was in tears, I just feel so alone and don’t know who to talk to, he’s been gone 2 weeks but last Sunday he said he would phone after Wednesday to ‘talk’ but I know the talk will just be full of all the usual ambiguity but still I feel I need this talk to be able to move on one way or another, I’m just so tired of hiding my feelings in order to be positive and look after myself but today it got too much for me. I’m glad I took the Valium as it has brought out my true feelings which most definitely was needed, I’ve spent a life time of being ‘positive’ and just getting on but I need to know, if its over, can I stay in this house which is currently rented in his name, it’s miles from all my friends and family and from anyone else in fact as its in the middle of nowhere. I just want to know, do I phone him and ask can we meet up to talk and get this out the way. If its over I am confident I can begin to make a life for me here but I need to know what’s happening, I can’t take much more of this waiting. Why is he keeping me hanging on. We’ve been together in this crazy so called relationship for 6 years, I’ve made as many mistakes as him but I’m willing to grow and learn from them I just need to know though so I can get started. I’m an ex addict so don’t want to end up going back down that road and feel I can cope with his ambiguous talk, I know if its just all the same words I can finally let it go but can’t let it go until I’ve spoken to him. Do I keep on waiting or do I phone?
Lovingme-
I totally feel for you. When I was in my 30’s,(20 years ago) I spent 5 years with the wrong man. I helped him get through University, all the way to earning a Doctorate on a public teacher’s salary. I was a wreck when it ended, and made myself physically ill from wanting to talk it through. I asked my highest power to just let me see it come full circle. Well, about 8 months ago, I ran into him after not seeing him in 20 years. I was in a tourist town with my sister and another female friend, and we were in an outdoor cafe drinking wine. He was divorced, had a child with the woman he left me for, (she dumped him and went on to have another child by another man and is also divorced now) and he is now alone. Although he is 2 years younger than me, he looked like an old man, hair completely white, wrinkled, not the handsome guy I loved, but the same old complacent personality. I got to see it come full circle and I felt gratitude that I truly dodged a bullet. He went on to say she “had problems” and I thought to myself, “yep, the problem was HIM.” What Im trying to say is, these guys generally don’t change. What you would most likely hear is the same old same old and you would leave that meeting feeling just as down, maybe worse. Just a thought, but I think you would do well to make a move closer to family and friends. You need a support system, and to heal, being isolated will make that hard. I wouldn’t wait any longer, I would make a list of things to do to make this move, start packing, and call on family or a friend to help you execute this move. I’ve been there, it hurts like hell, but I guarantee you–you will look back one day and wonder what you were thinking and you WILL be in a better place. Come to BR for support, but please reach out to that family and friends–god bless
and know you are not alone.
Loving,
It is a hard call, but I imagine you really need some advice, so I will put my 2 cents in. Yes, it is OK to call. You want to call and to know and the call will not make anything worse (sounds pretty bad the way it is). Also, this can fall under Natalie’s rule: Suck it up and see. I would say call, because what happens is also relevant to your housing situation, so you do need to know. Good luck with that, and keep coming to BR.
Hello, sorry to hear you’ve had a tough day, I know what those anxious horrible ones can be like, and sometimes Valium does help.
I wonder what it is you are hoping the phone call will clarify? you said yourself that ‘the talk will just be full of all the usual ambiguity’, and even though I can understand you feel you still need this talk in some way, it doesn’t sound like its going to help you very much either way.
Waiting on someone else’s timetable, and all the horrible ambiguity that causes (personally I think ambiguity is an absolute killer, stressful) can make you feel really powerless- but never forget that you do have power, and you can take care of yourself.
You don’t actually have to wait for him to decide, to ‘make the call’.
Its YOUR call too, and you can walk away form the craziness. But also the craziness and ambiguity can be addictive (that’s what i reliased with myself) and it can hook you in when its really not in your best interests.
I would ask- is this in your best interest? Can you take some positive action that would be? Best of luck with it.
Loving
Do not call him. You’ve already waited six years.
Your therapist can’t do it for you. We can’t do it for you. Your friends can’d do it for you and he can’t do it for you. You have to woman up and do something for yourself by your own strength.
By waiting on him to do a, b, or c you still give him power. He only has the power over you that you give him.
Grace,
She lives in a house rented in his name, so I imagine she will have to solve the housing situation by some type of contact or she could find herself on the street. I did not mean calling about the relationship, but for practical reasons – where will she live?
P, Loving
I missed that bit. I would hand notice in and live with family or friends or in a bedsit.
When I left the abusive ex I had nothing but the clothes on my back. It all worked out in the end and was completely worth it.
When the power balance, even if it,s not physical, is this skewed i don’t think contact is worth the aggravation unless children are involved. And even then it may be better done via a third party.
Loving,
Why are you waiting for him to make the decision? This is your life and you need to make the decision!
If you’re not happy, it is time to make some changes, and take charge!
“Why is he keeping me hanging on.”
No one keeps us hanging on, we do it to ourselves.
Valium is an addictive drug. Forget
him and get help or you will not remain a former addict.
Hello All. It’s been a little bit since I had a chance to read and post here. Nat, I love this article. It’s very timely. The Assclown I am trying to cut from my life permanently should have been a politician and I told him that. He loves to give vague answers I have to figure out. I asked him the other day if he wanted to date/sleep with others and his response basically turned it around on me saying he wouldn’t question it if I wanted/needed to sleep with someone. argh. Then yesterday I asked him a straight question if he had been on a date Friday night. He completely side stepped the question and asked how my night was. Conversations with him are like trying to get a straight answer from a lawyer or politician — he will always protect himself and not be a straight shooter. Beyond infuriating.
I had given him a 2nd chance recently, which I completely and utterly regret. 🙁 ugh. I feel like a fool. He used me again for his own needs and then wanted me to leave. I knew deep down he hadn’t changed and wouldn’t have changed but I wanted to hold out one last hope. It’s going to be easier to block him now than it was over the summer when I was so in the fog of infatuation. I actually feel like I hate him now, and I’m not a hating kind of person usually.
Meanwhile, I had a long conversation with a man who deeply cares for me who I can’t have a physical relationship with and he reminded me of what love and care from someone really is and feels like. It’s a very sad story of why we can’t be together but I hold him dear as a friend forever. He answers questions honestly and straight forward. He is the sweetest man I have ever known but it’s not in the cards for us to be together.
I wanted that same straight forwardness from the Assclown and he NEVER gave it. The vague and safe side stepping answers is all I ever got, along with only crumbs (never calls, just texts, doesn’t ask me out anymore, doesn’t want to buy a meal or a ticket to a show, etc.) He wants his “space” which a man friend of mine told me is guy code for wanting to see other women. It hurts but I’m finally being honest with myself. I’m not enough for him and he doesn’t consider me the one. He doesn’t see ME – he doesn’t see the value I bring or the light I bring to his life. I was going to take him to a concert on Tuesday. I spent a lot of money on tickets. He doesn’t know it yet but I have already uninvited him. I won’t be texting him anymore. I’m done. I will take someone much more worthy of my time.
“Meanwhile, I had a long conversation with a man who deeply cares for me who I can’t have a physical relationship with and he reminded me of what love and care from someone really is and feels like. It’s a very sad story of why we can’t be together but I hold him dear as a friend forever. He answers questions honestly and straight forward. He is the sweetest man I have ever known but it’s not in the cards for us to be together.”
I would call those type of people templates. Although it doesn’t turn out into a full blown relationship, it does prove that you are capable of attracting those honest qualities on some level so there is no reason why you couldn’t attract them for a relationship.
I hated pulling teeth for answers. I hope you leave him in the past and never look back.
539
Pinkpanther … I get what you are saying. This is the first year I’ve really kept up with what’s going on in our world … US … and this constant state of panic is shoved down our throats, though some reality it may be. I for one think I might be better off in my own world of children, work, pets and hobbies, oblivious to my surroundings! Lol! Regardless of our surroundings, we can only be responsible and sure for ourselves, taking steps and being proactive with our finances, at our jobs, whatever it may be AT THAT MOMENT, responsibly and in awareness, because none of us REALLY know what may be just around the corner in any of our lives. Ever. We can’t control others, the future, so worry or the fear of what may be is just wasted energy that could be used elsewhere.
Hi ladies. Thought I’d post this to enlighten many of you. I had a conversation at work with a classic EUF (female). She is 40 and has been seeing a guy for 2 years. They never dated just hit the sack and he thinks they are in a relationship but she wants a FB. He is insecure, jealous with it and has even checked her mobile etc. Now this would put me on stalker alert and I’d flush. She told him at the beginning she didn’t want a relationship and takes the view that it is his choice to stay so she doesn’t care what happens to him and his feelings. The sex apparently is fantastic but she usually gets drunk first because she has no respect for him and wouldn’t have him as a friend. On a holiday recently she realised they weren’t compatible but doesn’t want to end it as he “fills up my weekend” and would be hard to get rid of (ambiguity at play with her actions and words). He has commented about her being distant and she sees having sex with him as her entitlement after a 20 year marriage. I have said that she is playing games and needs to end it as he is too clingy to but she won’t. If he gets his heart broken then she feels it is tough, he knows the score what she is like as she doesn’t treat him well(sound familiar from Nat?).
I believe that what goes around comes around in life. But this was an eye opener coming from a woman. So be under no illusions that EUM don’t know what they are doing, they really do. They are selfish, have no regard for anyone other themselves and will trash other people to get what they feel they are entitled to. Hope this helps some of you see how hopeless these people are for relationships and if any of you are with a EUM then tell them to take a hike and flush now.
oh boy. i just fell off the wagon. i hate that feeling. one tiny decision to be made, and i made the wrong one. i was co-chairing a major symposium yesterday. the ex-mm was slated to attend, but we agreed some weeks ago no, it’s unhealthy, we have to let go. imagine my surprise when he walked in, and lost no time in telling me he was ONLY there for the subject matter. i wasn’t flustered, just got on with my work, was feeling on top of the world, then out of nowhere, i needed a few words in private. i did not need contact or validation: i am still trying to figure out why i did this. i asked, “what exactly is it that you want from me? i don’t really understand what you are doing here and why you’ve made this surprise appearance.” as soon as the words left my lips i knew i had made a mistake! i promised myself i would NEVER let him see the impact he had, and i broke a promise to MYSELF! you know what? i think he WAS there for the subject matter, but in my heart, i wanted him to beg me to go back to him, just so i could say no. of course, the ambiguous phrases rolled out–wants to be friends, blah blah. i said no to it all. and did i need to hear, “it’s almost like you sat down with my wife and told her what she had been doing wrong. she’s being so supportive…” i put my hand up: stop. we gazed at each other for a few minutes and i felt no spark: he looked old and married. i turned and quietly walked away. i wasn’t upset. i got on with the conference, but when i got home, all the longing welled up in me. i hate that he went back to his wife and doesn’t want me anymore. i hate that the fantasy is over. i hate that i hate these things because i knew what he was and never wanted him for my own anyway. he texted this morning wanting to know how the conference wrapped up. i did not respond. god give me strength to stay away.
Stay away and keep going Swissmiss! Consider yourself the lucky one that you got away from a cheating husband. You can never win in that type of relationship. Block his number so you don’t see his texts anymore. It was the best thing I ever did when a mm was after me and I was tempted. It freed me.
You’re right!
This woman is awful!! What a user!!!
Feistywoman,
great example, I do think the ACs know exactly how they roll, not that they admit it. I always wondered why they go to all this trouble to mindf..k people who clearly don`t want the same thing as them, as there are plenty of people they can hook up with for a hassle free time killing weekend fillerupper malarkey. Much like your friend here, I guess it`s the sense of power and control that they want, ego stroke that is so irresistable to them. Messed up.
Oh Natalie, yes! I have heard my fair share of these. So infuriating! Argh!!! Thanks for the reminder. The pseudo ex has been texting me out of the blue lately. The first text was after Hurricane Sandy. “Are you okay?” I responded with an “I’m okay. Thanks.” No ambiguity there, but I had to remind myself that it meant ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. NOTHING. Fast forward to this past Wednesday and out of the blue he texts me a quote by Rilke that says:
“Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves, like locked rooms and like books that are now written in a very foreign tongue. Do not now seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer.”
I was confused, baffled and f*cking annoyed! What the hell is he trying to say and why is he even contacting me??? I did give this mind space for more than a few days. I discussed it with friends and finally I had to call myself out on what was happening here: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. This was an attempt to f*ck with my head. This was an attempt to get my attention with this non-specific communication. This was BS. Not falling for this again. So tired of being messed with. All these little boys need to grow the f*ck up and get a clue. The world does not revolve around them. I’m feeling so much stronger now. I’m beginning to REALLY FEEL and UNDERSTAND that I DESERVE RESPECT, LOVE, CONSISTENTCY, CARE and KINDNESS. NC has given me perspective. It has allowed me to see the situation and the man for exactly what it/he is. And what it is, I don’t want nor need. I’m worth so much more.
Rilke? Sooo lame! Few years ago I would have been looking for some deep, mysterious meaning in this, but you are right – there is none. It is exactly the same as many of natalie’s quotes above. he probably has the quote on his cell to send to everyone… Very, very EU.
P. Indeed it was…LAME!
Rilke was probably just writing poetry to ambiguously communicate with some woman he was driving mad;imagine it, some damsel with her handmaidens “What does this mean? he writes that ‘Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer.’ Should I send him a message? Do you think he will still come to my banquet? Do you think that he loves me?”
I think that you should text him something from Dr Seuess back.
Lol re Dr. Seuss! A great poet, btw, all props to Dr. Seuss!
Rilke was writing to a young man trying to decide between the army and a life of letters.
But I bet your dude got it off of “good quotes to send someone who is asking too many questions dot com.”
Dr. Seuss!!!! LMAO!!!!!! That is a great idea! I thought about responding, but I just don’t want to give him the time of day. Thanks for this laugh!!
Such as “You’re a monster Mr.(insert name here), your heart’s an empty hole, your brain is full of spiders, you have garlic in your soul Mr. (insert name here). I wouldn’t touch you with a thirty-nine and a half foot pole!”
Dr. Seuss!!!! LMAO!!!!!! That is a great idea! I thought about responding, but I just don’t want to give him the time of day. Thanks for this laugh!!
La Pintura Bella! I sent you the wrong response! Your poem was awesome!!! I should acually use it:-)
LOL Lady Lisa. I’d love to take credit, but it’s Dr. Seuss all the way…Mr. Grinch!
😀
He most probably got this quote from a woman and couldn’t wait to forward it to other(s) to impress them with his deep metaphysical thoughtfulness.
I bet that is exactly what it is! I wouldn’t be surprised. I think he got this from the same woman he was dating when he was seeing me at the same time.
Lisa
He sent THAT in a TEXT?
My EUM came out with some fairly pretentious nonsense on occasion but he just hit the ball out of the park! Who does he think he is, Yoda?
I think you should embroider those words in a cross stitch sampler and hang them in the AC hall of fame!
(did he actually type all the words out in full, or was it in txtspk?)
Lisa
I think he liked the quote for the part of “the point is to live everything”, and that is probably the only thing he understood from the whole passage.
It´s the typical ridiculous permission to be an asshole – yeah you should just behave like an inconsiderate AC because that would be “living everything”. Something along the lines of those other idiotic quotes that tell you that you shouldn´t regret the things you´ve done (being a dickhead with Lisa) but only the ones you havent (refraining from behaving poorly, let Lisa be).
Lilia!
Exactly! Just excusing himself.
Mymble…girl…YES! He sent the quote in a text! It was in FULL text! I agree: this was truly a ‘winner’ in a really bad way…LOL!!!
Mymble…girl…YES! He sent the quote in a text! It was in FULL text! I agree: this was truly a ‘winner’ in a really bad way…LOL!!!
“Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves, like locked rooms and like books that are now written in a very foreign tongue. Do not now seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer.”
Right.Is this the kind of wording they have in marriage vows, adoption papers, mortgage agreements and employment contracts?
He is an idiot. Can you block him?
I blocked one of my exes who was the King of Ambiguity; he thought he was so much smarter than the rest of us seeking wisdom and clarity. Ultimately, I could stand it no longer.
I concur!
Lady Lisa,
Sorry, had to chime in on this.
Rilke? Seriously?! The man is probably turning in his grave with the shame of being used by some ignorant AC trying to get laid.
Whenever a dude uses literature (that he doesn’t even understand) to try to woo me, I puke a little in my mouth. These poor writers.
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ROFLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Revolution, you just FLOORED ME with this!!!!!!!!
Ladies, thank you ALL for your input, your hilarious insights and your support! So blessed to have a community loke this:-)
My exMM ac who out of the blue ended our 6 yr relationship with a phone call suddenly after 7 months apart turned up on my doorstep with flowers and chocolate on SAturday basically wanting to resume our non-relationship. There was LOTS of non-speak. What he didn’t realise is that in those 7 months I had read your book, been on this sight and did your course on self esteem. I told him VERY clearly that unless he was planning to divorce/leave his wife with whom he is all but separated except by law (a thing he said he was going to do in the first few weeks of us meeting before we ever got involved) in the near future that his offer of being his ‘bit on the side’ was not respectful and NOT on. You’ll love this… he replied I wasn’t a bit on the side as that was a term for married men who were HAPPILY married but still have a woman they saw behind their wife’s back… whereas he is UNHAPPILY married and only cares about me. So now we all clear on where we have been misinterpretting that one eh?! Classic.
Intothelight, this sounds like a film script in the making! And it sounds like the second reel has just started. Too bad for him you spent the interval on BR rather than eating popcorn.
It’s actually interesting how he (and my exMM used to do this too), when challenged even slightly, gets out his slide rule, his spirit level, his protractor and compass, his spreadsheet and his scientific calculator… to try to prove to you that you’re wrong on a technicality. I ask you, where would these MMs be without their technicalities. You make one assertion that they’re being assclowny, and they suddenly become John Maddens with their slo-mo replays and telestrator pens so they can urgently scribble over the action and make little diagrams and symbols to show us exactly how and where we fumbled the ball, and how he (on the other team) anticipated our fumble and made the move that would result in a turnover for his side.
Sooooo… were they Thorntons? Continental Mix?
Griselda
I once sent the MM a list of all the denigrating, insulting things he had said to me, and he picked up on one word I had got wrong. He must have gone back through his emails to find it. It’s merely a way of avoiding dealing with the actual point of what you’re saying. Focus on the trees and maybe they’ll forget to look for the wood.
Mymble,
This sounds like my ex. I contacted him recently about paying child support and related costs per the court order. I copied my children since they asked me to deal with this (and he sends the payments to my account). The response was not to copy the kids – nothing about how and when he will pay. Then he wrote to my daughter I should not be discussing this with her knowing (she is an adult). So, what happened to the payment, again?
Grizelda …. funny, funny, funny! It wasn’t even a box of chocs just a bar and I just saw the flowers today in Tesco … a £3 bunch! Talk about say it with flowers …
Wow…what a terrific post and so many fabulous answers. My long term marriage partner always said “I don’t think I can give you what you want/need” And he was right. He couldn’t. But I kept stupidly hoping because I thought he would try and maybe succeed. I thought he was “just being honest” Ugh. Lesson to me – believe him and act accordinngly. I mean would a decent mother say to her kids…”don’t count on me, I am not sure I can give you what you want?” Give me a break!
A recent online man (met a few months ago on an information site I run, not dating) who I thought was becoming a close and loyal friend would say these kinds of things in response to my questions about whether we actually wanted to communicate better and become closer and more honest friends:
I am not in any shape for a relationship
I don’t trust anybody
Let’s just see how it goes
I want to be liked for who I am (so don’t ask for anything else even if I have been nasty to you)
I guess I am sort of a Peter Pan figure…..
I know I haven’t really grown up (he is 54) but I am really working on that
Let’s just enjoy what we have now
I did bring up things but because he controlled the relationship by being emotionally unavailable and detached I never felt I was actually IN a relationship – he kept himself “out of it” which confused me and made me feel inappropriate and demanding. I flushed him without too much of a problem although he did “turn up” again as anticipated so double flush.
Espresso,
At least he knows who he is: an asshole!
Have you considered that maybe we should just stop contemplating our belly button and just get more sex? Don’t want to sound cynical, but now we complain that men only want sex from us, a time will come when they won’t even want that. So, my question is, why don’t we take advantage of it until we can and get at least a few orgasms now and then? It may not be as fulfilling a s a loving relationship but hey! It’s better than nothing, don’t you think? After my big breakup with the man who was and, I’m afraid, still is, the great love of my life, I did my best to behave, so that I could find the ‘right one’. I lived in total chastity for 2 years and went to therapy for one. The only one who got a good outcome from my therapy was my therapist who has probably retiled her bathroom with my money by now. Have you noticed that there isn’t a website like this one for men? You won’t find a baggage reclaim for men on the net, I have searched for it, there isn’t! As there aren’t any self-help books to find Mrs Right, or to find your ‘princess charming’. Men don’t need them. They don’t keep whining on the net about how lonely they are, they probably go to the nearest bar and chat up a blonde. Or simply masturbate in the shower before the football game. That’s why they rule the world and we don’t. Your partner uses you for sex only or simply to fill the gap in between girlfriends? Well, do the same! Tit for tat girls! Why don’t you enjoy his volatile company and sex for the time being, while looking in the meantime for something better? I did marvelously until I followed this philosophy, then I decided that I needed to ‘grow up'(was only 31, but there you go) and fell wildly in love with a handsome married man who lived separately from his family (3 hours by car, it had been 6 years when we started dating) totally fucked-up but it was like dating a single guy. He was smart, fun and a GOD IN THE SACK. If I had been wise, I would have kept him as a pleasant fall back guy, but was so foolish to break up since I was in love and wanted ‘more’. Two years and a couple of lame dates later, I am here, ranting on the internet instead of having sex and considerably poorer, thanks to my therapist bills!I have wasted two years where we could have chatted, have sex and enjoy the mutual non-committed company. I’m sure he’s having fun with someone else as we speak, he was a serial cheater, started cheating on his wife long before he even married her! He definitely knew hi stuff. Come on girls, a little less self-indulgence and a little more humour wouldn’t hurt, would it? Stop whining and over-analyse and go out there and have fun! Carpe diem! You might even accidentally find the right person for you. If you don’t, worse case scenario you will have entairtained yourself!
Louisa,
Tell me that bit again about the time you tried so hard to turn the casual fuckbuddy thing into an actual loving relationship that you broke yourself and had to go to therapy.
Louisa,
I personally don’t think more sex is the remedy. We’re not all here lamenting the demise of the sex…we’re working on healing from emotionally abusive behavior from people who LIED about their intentions towards us.
Have as much casual sex as you’d like to have. No one is saying you can’t, or that it’s a bad thing. However, I’d bet it won’t solve anything in the long run. It may make you feel better for a little while. However, it’s also quite possible it’s a way to avoid getting real with yourself.
Sounds a bit like the therapy wasn’t a “waste,” but that you’re not ready to really dig into doing the hard work. You’ll do it when you get sick and tired of being sick and tired. Everyone has their own pace.
What Griz said.
You haven’t been looking that hard then because there are loads of websites for men on how to chat up women, stay in a relationship with women, get what they want out of women.
If you can carry on having sex with someone when the aftermath has broken you that badly that you need a year of therapy then it isn’t casual and it sounds a bit deluded to suggest you could have carried on with him a bit longer just to get laid without all the other stuff it was clearly bringing up for you. There’s nothing wrong with casual if you’re both on the same page about it.
And some of us want a relationship with a man that is an actual relationship that develops and grows and where you have mutual trust etc etc. The point is not to get distracted from what you want just to get laid by some headf**k who’s good in bed. Most of us are here because we’ve been badly burned that way and want to stop.
And let’s face it – how hard is it to get laid if that’s all you really want?
Louisa,
Not to be sarcastic, but your scheme is the equivalent of
Hey, if you´re overweigth, why not become thin?
If you´re poor, why not get out and become a rich person?
If you don´t like being a woman, why not pretend you´re a man? – oh right, that´s the one you said.
Louisa,
Short answer: because it is unfulfilling.
There is a website for men sort of like BR. It’s call “A Shrink for Men.” That site and BR should be world treasures.
I can’t speak for every other man but I want a relationship. I would like to share my life and adventure with a woman I can walk around the block with. My recent unavailable told me it was too bad that I just didn’t want to have sex with her. At that point, I made it up in my mind that I wouldn’t let myself be used like that.
539
Thank you for that. It’s really refreshing to get this perspective from a man and to help remind us that men too can feel the pain of being used. We’re all in this together. Wish more men would post on this site.
louisa, ugh… just having some guy use me for sex only is NOT better than having nothing at all.
it’s great if you can just have sex without feelings, but in reality most of us women can’t do this. i know i can’t. i tried it with the ex EUM after we split. every time when we had sex (yep, every day), i felt like i got rejected again and again. and i was. he was just in it for the sex. i had feelings for him. by that time i was not only dealing with the rejection from the break up, but also with the fact that my self esteem had hit rock bottom.
after i finally left him physically, i found myself in a very dark den of despair. i cried non stop for weeks. only pausing to pour bach’s rescue remedy down my throat.
no, i don’t want to be in a position like that ever again. as tori amos said ‘so you can make me come, doesn’t make you jesus’. amen.
Natashya, I can totally relate to what you’ve said. Been there myself. Can I ask how are you doing now? When did this happen?
sunshine, this happened in spring and summer earlier this year. i got away 2 months ago and though i still have some really bad moments, i can honestly say that i’m healing nicely. one month NC now has done wonders for me. it was really hard at first, but it’s easier now.
i am reading BR every single day and i can’t stress it enough… it has saved my sanity. i’m working hard on getting my self-esteem back, and i am proud to say there’s progress.
i can’t wait for the day where i don’t think about the ex EUM at all anymore.
Good for you!:) I’m going through the same thing, although I went NC 8 months ago — that’s when my ex started seeing someone else. I’ve only found BR a few months ago and also read it every day. And it has helped me a lot!! But stll need to work hard on mybself-esteem and all. But we’ll make it!!:)) xxxx
sunshine, what helped me as well was telling the entire story to a friend who hadn’t heard it yet. just after the break up, i was very emotional about it, but when i told the story again to someone else more recently, i was already more detached and when i heard myself tell her about the ridiculous things that happened, it really pushed me in the right direction. if she had told me those things happened to her, i would have congratulated her on at least getting out of an insane situation.
of course, our self-esteem takes a hit, but that also means we can build up a new one, a better version of it with healthy boundaries. hang in there, sister xx
Ha ha ha. I am so sorry that you have gotten such a negative response to your post Louisa. It reminds of some saying about he who doth protestith too much.
I can see your point about getting out there and having some fun. That has been my current plan of attack. I have actually been having fun. I know it’s weird right?!
I am actually kind of enjoying being single. I think even if you don’t go out and have sex with a bunch of men it IS very therapeutic to date and get out and talk to men. Having fun with men seriously takes away the pain of having had a bad experience.
Fortunately, I have never been involved with a married man intimately. I do have lots of experience with them from my stripper days. I feel for you ladies that found yourself stuck in that kind of crap. I feel for the ladies that have had to deal with the narc a-holes. I have first hand experience with that one and I know it takes a butt load of effort to get your self esteem back.
But get it back you do. I look back on most of my past relationships with humor these days. It was all part of a learning process. I made some mistakes and am glad that I did because in suffering the consequences of my own actions I have grown; I know exactly what I will never do again and I know the warning signs of a loser who wants to defile or defraud me. It just seems to me that at some point you DO have to look back and laugh and then…move forward.
Have some fun. Someone asked me the other day what it is I have that is SO valuable that I am defending it by closing myself off to others. In other words, Have Some Fun.
It takes courage but I assure you it is worth it. There are good men out there –
EVERYWHERE!
Freya
I think it’s you who doth protest too much. If casual sex is working out so great, then I am happy for you, but I know it isn’t what I want or need.
Why do you feel the need to post about here and get everyone to agree that it’s the answer to all our problems?
Freya,
I was thinking about your post overnight, and I came to the similar conclusion as Mymble and others:
1. If everything is so great and you are having fun, why are you on this site?
2. Perhaps you do not realize that many of us posting here have “been there, done that.” For whatever reason our next step is that we desire something else. I do not see anyone being negative to you, only pointing out the logical inconsistencies in what you write (it is implied in posting that you will likely get responses).
3. It sounds like you might be wanting to “help” us, “misguided” BR women. I wonder, why? We are not the representative sample of all women, just sharing time/space to ponder certain aspects of our lives. That does not make you wrong or us wrong (“it is what it is?” ha ha), but it seems that somehow our approach irritates you and you are trying to “correct” it. Again, I am missing the point, why? Surely you must not think we are ALL so clueless about sex,or casual sex (other than me not knowing how to get it, LOL)?
Ohhhhhhhhhhh I know I’ll probably be bitch slapped for this one, but…
Freya, I see your perspective. I see why you have it too.
Here’s my opinion that you didn’t ask for, but since you’re posting here pontificating about casual sex and how great it is for you, allow me to pontificate on my perspective for a bit: I think trying to be okay with casual sex is a Cluster*uck that we tell ourselves to entertain a distraction to working on ourselves, as well as to get faux self esteem from sexual aerobics with different men. It can also be used as a “bandaid” for having been totally screwed over by a disordered or toxic one…
But I guess when women say that they can’t have sex casually, they are really saying they have respect for themselves. It’s unlikely that men will have a great opinion of you, other than that you ARE just an object to be exploited. See….I think this is a problem. Sex, IN MY OPINION, is not only for procreating, or “having fun” as you put it, but it’s a sacred as well as spiritual exchange. Why do you think so many women get hurt by men who have burned them thinking they could have casual encounters without emotions? Because when we have EMPATHY, unless you are robotic or otherwise troubled, it would be difficult to do.
But I just can’t help but be drawn back to the conclusion about self respect. Somehow, I don’ think self respect and casual sex are mutually exclusive.
Just sayin….
K, no bitch slapping from me. I think you just said exactly what’s been running through my own mind on this subject for the past several days. It’s a very easy way to distract yourself from yourself. I know, I used to do it.
Oh Lord. Not this again.
*sits on hands and looks very virtuous and detached*
This reminds me of those high school girls who matured earlier than the rest of us and were paternalistic about it.
Yes, I remember those. They usually got knocked up and dropped out.
Louisa
Either start listening to your therapist or get a new one.
And all of us here have tried to get satisfaction from casual sex. We either found it not that satisfying or got very seriously burned.
Maybe Nat should put a banner up
“We’ve already tried casual sex. Thanks for caring.”
lol grace, i love it.
i can’t do casual sex. to me sex is coupled with emotions. i have tried to have casual sex and i ended up falling ‘in love’ with those assclowns or feeling empty and unsatisfied. nope, no more.
the next guy i date will certainly not get laid on the first date, regardless of ‘connection’, or ‘attraction’ or the fact that he also likes sour apple chupa chups.
from now on, my private life is an assclown free zone.
Hahahaha! Louisa, this is a good one!!:) After two years of “suffering” from the big breakup with a guy that I also thought was the love of my life, I’ve also started to think why on earth can’t I be the same as men?? Or my ex for that matter. He went out and found himself someone more suitable for him, while he was still holding on to me as an option! And me?? Turning 32 in January and I can’t even bring myself to start dating again after having been so damn hurt!!!! Urgh!!!!
sunshine, there’s no rush in dating. i am 10 years older than you and sometimes i get panicky as i don’t want to spend the rest of my life alone. i really don’t. but how can we attract a good, emotionally available, SINGLE, decent, kind, and stable man with good intentions if we ourselves are still healing and/or a hot mess. not gonna happen.
when i think about what happened last summer, i can barely believe it when i read my own journals.
i have now a list in my head. every time i feel some weakness or sadness about the ex EUM, i say out loud (if i can.. LOL): why would i be with someone who:
1. was not sweet and affectionate
2. was rude and sometimes mean
3. rejected and ignored me CONSTANTLY
4. was very cheap and let me pay for almost everything (knowing i had very little money coming in as a freelancer, while he himself was pretty well off)
5. made me feel bad about myself, insignificant, confused, jealous, obsessive and insecure.
the answer: i DON’T
and then i instantly feel better.
Natashya, I know, I’ve really been trying to focus on all the negative stuff that went on in our relationship. But then I get hit by the fear that he’ll be a better man in this new relationship of his!! I’m trying really hard to get past this — and yes I know that rejection is still at the core of it all:( just need to accept the situation (which I have been avoiding because the truth was simply too painful to deal with) and MOVE ON! I’m actually starting to get pissed at myself!:) This is the first time that something like this has happened to me and maybe that’s why it’so hard — because I’m not sure I can “survive” it?:)
Sunshine,
There was life before this man, and there will be life after. Trust me, with time you will wonder why you put so much energy into the situation.
Remember this, it does not matter how he treats the new one, as he treated you like crap! This is all you should be concerned with to move forward!
i also have a bit of fear that my ex EUM also will be a better man with his new girlfriend. i did see a very nice side of him for the first few months. but that, of course, is betting on potential. and what happened? i lost at the relationship roulette table.
it is also the first time anything like this happened to me. indeed, perhaps that’s why we’re taking it so hard.
a friend of mine sent me an email and he wrote this:
“Yay to all the stuff that happened this summer. It sounds like it was very valuable, that you really needed the mirroring, the wake up, on many levels. He gave it to you. Perhaps you gave him one too, but whether he is conscious enough to get it, is his business. :)”
and that helped me, too. the ex EUM made me realise that my own inner foundations aren’t strong enough, that i need to seek happiness from within. i know this sounds all very wishy washy, but it is true. i tend to borrow somebody else’s dreams and when the relationship doesn’t work out, i always feel like i’m left with nothing as they (the others) were my entire life. no more.
‘Remember this, it does not matter how he treats the new one, as he treated you like crap! This is all you should be concerned with to move forward!’
I should pin this onto my office wall!! Thanks, Allison!
And yes, Natashya, it sort of was a “wake-up call” for me too. A call to start working on myself … The thing with me was that I totally lost myself in this five-year relationship! I was totally independent before him and really didn’t pay much attention to men at all:) And then after he dumped me, I just collapsed into pieces. He knew I wasn’t the one for him for quite some time but of course didn’t came out int he open with it. I should’ve seen all the red flags, because there were plenty, but kept my eyes shut …
So, no more … Just need to find faith in myself again and trust myself that everything’s going to be alright:) xxx
sunshine, 5 years is a long time, but he sure did you a favour by letting you go. if your eyes were closed and he hadn’t dumped you, you might have been in a dysfunctional relationship for 10, 20, 30 years?
i was married to man who i now suspect is bipolar. one night he came home drunk and he threatened to beat me up because there was nothing to eat in the house (i kid you not). that night, i left a 12 year relationship behind. i began again. in the past 5 years i’ve ‘began again’ several times. it’s unsettling, but not the end of the world. beginning again means getting unstuck from a bad situation. yay for us and everybody else here.
Sunshine,
Take this wake up call, as a gift.
I too, allowed a lot of nonsense, but the lessons I learned from the relationship are invaluable, as I had much to learn about myself!
If you see your part in this situation and make the necessary changes, it will be worthwhile. Only gets better from here 🙂
Natashya, I know all that at a rational level, but my heart just won’t let go. Or what?:) It’s a
Sorry, I’ve must have hit ‘Reply’ by mistake:) I just meant to say this has also been a big bruise to my ego:) Just need to accept it and move on.
Thanks for all your support (and to Allison as well). Sure need it:) xxx
oh boy Natashya,
thank you for putting up that list. It is mine to a T.
Exactly:
I DON’T.
Yawn.
Why not just see a hooker every day? A different one each day?
My point exactly – some of us want someone that WANTS us, makes plans, cares for us etc. A penis/vagina alone isn’t going to supply that.
After a while it does get very FAKEY and like an act. And pointless!
Hi, Louisa. Sounds like you are weary & sullen. I think you are actually not callous and casual, but rather just lashing out after a lack of positive outcomes for “doing the right thing.” After dumping a married man, going to therapy, and being chaste for two years, you are still single. You did the right thing- dating a MM is not only morally wrong, but an ego boost for the serial MM predator, and a guaranteed fail for you, the OW. I have never given a married man the time of day, because we all know how the story ends. I grew up in a church three times a week home, so I am single for different reasons. I did however read “Sex and the Single Girl” by H.G. Brown when I was young, decades ago, but she was right on the money about how MM manipulate, repeat, and never get divorced. You are at the mercy of their affections. They will treat you like a goddess and be full of promises- at the beginning. You fall hard emotionally. They don’t because they are too pre-occupied with juggling a double life. They will say any thing to keep you around, except “will you marry me”? which is the only thing you want to hear. He likes his situation and it works perfectly for him, over and over. His marriage both attracts new poor boundary FBGs to a challenge, then he uses/devastates them and has a built in excuse for “have to end it”. Had you stayed with him you would have a) wasted more time and gotten more involved being kept a secret and being second best. b) he would have gotten bored and uncomfortable watching you do this to yourself, and picked another (new, challenging) OW, which would leave you more depressed. c) wife would have gotten suspicious and he would go back to her and renew his vows/and/or have another baby with her. I am kind of surprised at how common sleeping with MM is- it is some one else’s (albeit creepy) legal husband, you have no rights to him, wtf? I agree, it takes two to tango, and it is not fair that he gets away with it, and comes out unscathed, but that’s how women have set it up for men. His wife will take him back, and so will a new FBG. So,” It’s better than nothing, don’t you think?” No. You risk your sanity, time and a bad girl reputation, and you don’t need any thing working against you when you are single, you are vulnerable enough. You cannot “entertain yourself of have some fun” since the deck is stacked and he holds ALL the Aces. SO NOW; you have gone the good girl route for two years, and like the rest of us, you want to know what WILL WORK? You want results, a happy family. After all, the cheater MM gets that (plus more on the side) and you are ranting on BR alone. Totally understandable. You feel gypped, this is taking up your life. Society clichés (and maybe your therapist) tell us to believe in “karma” and it will happen if you “do the right thing/stay positive/stay out of trouble” Yet, you are doing that and time is passing and – crickets. Still waiting for that nice guy- where is he? A Christian dating site? Jeez. I don’t know. Does any body? Remind your therapist that you don’t have forever to work out the issues- as women age into eventual infertility and some unkind AC males might say, insignificance, you are at least still young. You pay her good money, so say whatever you want to her. Stop short of the re-tile thingy though :). You seem resigned to the lack of progress she is giving you- so quit unless she can help you figure out what made you vulnerable to the dead end situation (besides boredom, lack of attention from other men and your primal needs for love and affection), & decide to stay out of futile relationships in the future (I think you now know how to do that yourself, correct?) Boredom is better than agony and life-wreckage at the hands of a serial user. Yet, you seem to be contemplating that one and are grappling with the casual ‘shitty substitutes are better than nothing’ situation. You now miss the shitty substitute- he gave you attention, sex and intermittent happiness. Being alone becomes intolerable after a while, without the aforementioned perks to offset single life. For now, keep doing what you do. Hobbies, friends, therapy, that’s life for the rest of us. I shrug my shoulders. It seems like inadequate compensation for having some thing permanent.
Hi Louisa,
Assuming your comment is in earnest, I will try to give you a serious reply.
I do agree that “navel gazing” is self-indulgent and counter-productive to healing. Absolutely.
I don’t agree that a whole lot of that is happening here at BR. I see lots of insightful people keeping each other “real”, sometimes gently and sometimes brutally, as needed.
I do agree that at a certain point in the healing process it’s good to cultivate some light heartedness; to make an effort to go out in the world and re-discover how beautiful and joyous it can be, how good people can be, even strangers.
I don’t agree that casual sex is any part of that equation. Reasonable people may disagree, but this is the truth of my experience.
louisa, I tried to go back to casual and just enjoy the perks (and there were many, including great sex) with the ex AC. I had been a player myself for most of my adult life so I figured I could do it. However, being knowingly managed for his convenience, which I now recognize as flagrantly disrespectful, did not sit well with me after we had been more than that previously. And, learning he had another woman in his bed hours after he left mine wasn’t something I could accept.
I went on a date recently with someone I met in real life and shares similar interests and has asked me out again. I don’t know that for various reasons, I would want a serious relationship with him. I do plan to enjoy it for what it is while being respectful of him.
I think once you have feelings for someone, as you did your MM, you realize you want to feel that feeling and have it reciprocated. If I were to juggle other men and sexual relationships as I did in the past, I think it would now diminish my ability to be genuine with myself and to be available for a genuine relationship. Not to mention, I’m older now and don’t have as much confidence about getting naked with random new men who aren’t already crazy about me!
Did you see my earlier post about a woman who does just that! Get real sex is only worth having as part of a loving, caring relationship for me and yes it has to be good as I had poor sex in a marriage. I think 5 mins was the record as he was so selfish!! I wouldn’t countenance a man who shagged around for sex and I bet many men would be the same with a woman like that, who in the UK is called a slag. Not to mention your sexual health as well. Each to their own but we also have Ann Summers here for such needs, with results guaranteed every time unlike some men!
Ladies, please help. I’ve just made a huge, huge mistake. I’ve been working on a manuscript with the exMM via email and for a while there it was all professional (on my part)and I was coping. However, a couple of days ago he asked me if I wanted to go over and see him (he lives on the other side of the country). I reminded myself of all the bad times and declined saying I could not afford it, but yesterday I was having a very weak moment and emailed to ask him if I could change my mind! I’m mortified with myself. This is the email exchange I’ve just had:
Me: “Can I change my mind about coming over?”
AC: “I would be happy to see you again. However, I like your move to financial prudence – that bodes well for your future”.
Me: “So, is that a no?”
AC: “I would be happy to see you, but I don’t know what the cost would be. Feeling wealthy? Go for it”.
Me: “No, I’m not feeling wealthy, but I was prepared to spend some money because I wanted to see you”.
AC: “Come over then. I have been reading the Scrabble book you gave me…”
*The ‘scrabble’ refers to a sexual game we used to play*
Me: “I thought you wanted to discuss research?”
AC: “Do I get to be a co-author of further studies we develop?”
Me: “Of course”
He then sent me a couple of articles relating to our studies and I’ve left it at that. I haven’t responded.
OMG, what have I done!! I’m shaking and tearful and I’ve let myself down. I would welcome any advice please.
Lilly, my dear “little sis” on BR,
If I may, here is the translation of what I imagine this interchange meant for the AC:
Lilly: “Can I change my mind about coming over?”
He thinks: WooooooHooooo, she still wants me!!!! And she will come all the way here to see me. Hey AC, you still got it young man! Wait, I wonder if she expects me to pay part of her travel costs. Sh*t, gotta kibosh that idea:
AC: “I would be happy to see you again. However, I like your move to financial prudence – that bodes well for your future”.
Lilly: “So, is that a no?”
He thinks: Damn, she thinks I don’t want her to come over. Hell no – I want her to come but I don’t want to cough up any cash. She can come if she pays for it all…
AC: “I would be happy to see you, but I don’t know what the cost would be. Feeling wealthy? Go for it”.
Lilly: “No, I’m not feeling wealthy, but I was prepared to spend some money because I wanted to see you”.
He thinks: She wants to see me. She wants me! She wants to sleep with me. I’m gonna get lucky, I’m gonna get lucky, and with a woman other than the boring old wife!!! AC, you da bomb!
AC: “Come over then. I have been reading the Scrabble book you gave me…”
*The ‘scrabble’ refers to a sexual game we used to play*
Lilly: “I thought you wanted to discuss research?”
He thinks. Oh sh*t, maybe she doesn’t want to get laid. Better back pedal. Back to research talk then. Yeah, that should work. I can get her over to the sex mindset when she gets here. Mwahahahahahaaaaaa.
AC: “Do I get to be a co-author of further studies we develop?”
Lilly: “Of course”
He thinks: Yup, she still wants me. Silly girl. Well, she can’t say she didn’t know what she was getting herself into…
Sorry to be so blunt, but this guy is a patronizing, self-absorbed twit. Who says “I like your move to financial prudence – it bodes well for your future”? Yuck!
Lilly, you may have slipped up a little, but you have not made concrete plans to follow through with this yet, right? Just let it drop. If he brings it up, tell him you don’t feel the need to see him – email works just fine for manuscripts.
Do NOT go to see him. It sends all the wrong (FBG) messages! I made a slip-up like this after I first found out about OOW. Last December, we bought tickets to a concert at the end of June 2012. We broke up, he begged to be friends, I refused to go to the concert with him at first. Then I texted and asked if I could change my mind – if we could go as friends. He said “of course”. So we went, and it was awful. I had just found BR, but I was still in fantasyland. We ended up holding hands at the concert, and there were some pretty intense kisses at the end of the night to say the least. I didn’t sleep with him, but I think it helped that there was not a bed nearby at the time. That was the day I knew I couldn’t be with him any more. I went NC about 4 days later (the same day you did with this guy).
It is NOT safe to be alone with these guys, no matter how “over him” you feel. Please find your anger you had at his self-admitted “deficient conduct” when it came to supporting you emotionally when you lost your baby. Please see how cheap and EU and AC and AMBIGUOUS he is being when he wants you to travel cross-country to see him – at your expense (monetary and emotional). If you have to, think of his wife, and how she would feel if she knew an ex-lover was coming to see her husband.
And please, most of all, continue to take care of yourself. Let us know how you make out. Huge hugs, xxxooo
Learner, that was BRILLIANT!
Lilly, you simply cannot resist the power of all of us BR women practically willing you back from the brink!
Lilly… On Mothers Day this year I sent the ex AC a brief but pathetic email. I knew 2 hrs after I sent it that I just mades a HUGE mistake and as hard as I tried I couldnt unsend it.
It was my first Mothers Day since my mother passed & it was her birthday the same day. I was emotional to say the least and it stirred up some things inside me. I have forgiven myself but it has made my resolve to NEVER do that again so much stronger.So just because you fell off the wagon know that you can always jump back on…. And please DONT GO SEE HIM… Stay strong 🙂
Lilly
Don’t worry about it. Sounds like he won’t push it, but if you’re willing to spend hundreds to get on a plane to see him, he’ll entertain you. You can be sure that if you spent that much dough you’d probably have sex.
But do you have to co-author with this guy? Why put yourself through that? Go NC and write your papers yourself or get another co-author.
His answers make him sound like a callous douche, btw.
In any case, so what, you made an overture? Just forget it. If you HAVE to keep working with him and he asks you to come, just say no thanks the next time. If he says, but you were so hot to see me the other day, just say, yeah, funny huh? I’m not now. Let’s just work.
Your “of course” re the further studies is just ridiculous, though, IMHO. This is a married man with no respect for you. He has shown you his disrespect. Why on God’s green earth would you allow this person to have his name next to yours on any project?
Lilly, big mistake indeed! Chalk it down to being human and jump back on the NC-wagon! Do not go there! Do not undo the work you’ve been doing on yourself all this time! Spend your cash on some pampering instead! Hugs!
Lilly…
Deep breath. You slipped. It’s OK. It’s not the end of the world or a major catastrophe. But it has upset you immensely.
He just showed you, in no uncertain terms, that he is an AC and means you no good. Go No Contact. He’s into all of this (including the study or research) for HIS ego…nothing more. Can you continue this work without his involvement? Get a new partner?
You need to sever all ties with this guy. You really won’t heal until you FLUSH him completely and can focus on you without his asinine interference.
it happens, lilly. get back on your feet. don’t mention it again and definitely don’t act on it. nothing really bad has happened yet.
I am sure you will get far better replies than mine Lilly but didn’t want to leave you hanging. Stop beating yourself up. Did you book a ticket? No. Did you go there and fawn all over him? No. Did you play “scrabble” with him? No. This is a blip. He has caught you at a weak moment amd you wobbled. That is all it was, a wobble. However, you probably should take it as a sign that you may not be as far down the road of recovery as you would like. Dust yourself down, give yourself a wry smile and pray that time flies until this project is over and you never have to have any contact with him ever again. It was just a few emails. It probably meant next to nothing to him so try to see it like he does,hold your head up high and start again.
Lilly
He’s playing you like a fish on a line.
Some fish can’t be caught. Why is that? Because they got caught x times before.
Youv’e been caught x times already. Don’t let it be x+1. Let it go. Don’t beat yourself up. You’ve simply confirmed what you already know. And don’t see him.
I’m gonna stick my neck out and say it, no matter how nice the MM is, how complimentary he is, how many barbecues you go to (sorry runner), how many texts, how often he says he loves you, wants to see you, talks about sports, emails you, complains about his wife, love his kids, loves your dog it’s all about his convenience and his sex/ego stroke supply. He doesn’t care about your job, your ambitions, your life, your desires, your family, your interests, your emotions, your welfare, your finances or your future. He. does. not. care. He will fake it because he feels he’s doing you a big favour and he enjoys your adoration. He might even believe it because they are so selfish that giving you a crumb feels like the ultimate sacrifice to them.
Ditch them. One day you’ll meet a man who will consider it a privelege to love you and help you. You won’t be trying to squeeze blood out of a stone.
Lilly,
everyone has said it better than I can, but just wanted to send you some strength and hugs! Don´t dwell on it, just reply with indifference if he ever brings it up again, something like “Nah, I don´t think so after all”.
It really doesn´t matter what he thinks about you, as they say it only matters if you think it´s true.
As I see it, in your mind you have decided that this guy isn´t worthy of your time, only your emotions need to catch up. So don´t worry if that takes time, it isn´t supposed to be immediate nor easy. You´ll get there in the end.
I cannot even begin to express how grateful I am to you all. This is a very brief response as I’ve had a bad day and I’m so tired. All this grief. I will write more when I get my act together, but just wanted each of you to know how you have helped and empowered me. Thank you all so much. I can do this xxxxx
Grace,
“He doesn’t care about your job, your ambitions, your life, your desires, your family, your interests, your emotions, your welfare, your finances or your future. He. does. not. care.”
That’s it in a nutshell, Grace. It’s a hard pill to swallow. But true.
When I finally began to entertain that awful truth (in the final throws of my epic EUM relationshit) it very quickly became pretty bloody obvious. I now don’t know why I ever imagined otherwise – I had scant evidence of anything to the contrary! We mistake his/their need for sex/ego stroking etc. for feelings/care that he has for us. It’s not feelings or care for us. It’s all about him. We just happen to be there – we are the gift that keeps on giving.
Lilly, this guy is a total and utter f++ker (pardon the French, but he deserves it). Find someone else to “work” with. He’s not that special. You’re not that desperate. Nuke him (re Grace) right of the face of your earth. He’s done enough damage. And then get over him.
(ps I am still reading when I get a chance – not much time to comment – am run ragged at work – but hello my BR friends. love to all. Am still here, still listening. Stay strong! Ambiguity is hell on earth. Don’t entertain it, anyone! (runner, still reading you! Hugs to you)
Oh Lilly,
I was so glad to read below that you didn’t book the trip. Good for you. It didn’t take much imagination to de-code his emails. You are right, the trip home would have been hell. Back to NC.
No offense about the bbg’s taken Grace. It made me laugh.
And a big Hi to you Fearless. Glad you are still reading. Take care.
Lilly,
You’re going to spend money that you don’t have to visit a an ex married man?????
What do you plan to get out of this???? Big mistake to your self esteem, if you do not retract your offer.
Ding,ding,ding! We’ve got a winner! Grizelda saves the thread once again with her astute observations—you tell it like it is, always using humor, and you always break it down correctly—thanks, you’re right on!
One thing that really helped me flush the recent ac when he kept using ambiguous language about meeting up someday (let’s meet! How bout Paris? Maybe I will come up to your place and you can show me around? I am feeling wonky – not quite up to it! Perhaps in a few months….When I come up to visit you I will take you out for the very best dinner you EVER had! When I am in better shape. Maybe in a month or two??? Someday??? I am going to have the biggest party to celebrate …can you come? Well, maybe not here…what about there…) I kept thinking that he HAD not been well and that I could “understand that.”
But then I decided that after letting it roll out a bit I would set a deadline for myself. If the waffling kept happening I was out of there. And I kept to it. Having a deadline and telling somebody else about it helped (I told my closest friend). I even flushed me earlier than my deadline and I felt empowered. Just a thought
Hi Natalie,
I think you are brilliant! Your articles are so true and helpful. I wish I had known about this website when I was dating a super jerk who needed “flushing”. Thank you so much for helping us women who need encouragement to be strong and not let these type of men use us!
When it comes to ambiguity I’ve heard it all…so I thought. The last relationship totally caught me off guard, I didn’t think it was possible, since I had gone through it all. Ladies there are men out there, with mental disorders, which will leave you thinking you’re the one going insane! Perhaps you believe in a rosy world where we can have everlasting real healthy relationships, however there lies a dimension totally unreal from what you personally may be accustomed to…its not your fault. There are no guarantees you will be safe from other people’s neurotic behaviors, which can pop up any time…no matter how long you know the person. I lived with a man for over 23 years, and in the end, I can say “I didn’t know that man, I never really knew him…he seemed normal for many years. In the end when I was very ill, he said if I wasn’t going to get better, he would leave me. So I got better, and I vowed I would leave, and I did. 27 Days later, he was with another woman, and married her three years later.
I wonder if there is ever a time, where we shouldn’t try so hard, especially late in life, when most people are damaged over bad relationships, what if it’s too late to start new ones? The last man I dated had Asperger Syndrome, with narcissistic tendencies, he came across like a shy gentle boy, but that was an act, I felt sad he was sick, and I made the mistake in trying to help him in some way. Ladies don’t do this, you cannot save anyone but yourselves.
“An ambiguous relationship has ambiguous conversations and information in it.”
Yes an example of this
Him: I have to end things with you I need to move on in my life find someone I want to be with.
Me: Okay
Him: We should stay friends though
Me: I don’t think that will work for me.
Him: So you don’t think we will go back to friends with benefits then ??
Me: You want someone else
Him : Yes I do so do you think we can be friends with or without benefits? (He pushed more the point of having benefits how surprising)
Me: No
That statement Natalie made that they can’t commit to being with and they can’t commit to being without you rings so true. A break up with the option of a comeback.
The world of ambiguity is horrible I wish I had never visited.
Tulipa,
Sounds like he just wanted sex. Creep!
hugs Tulipa. Writing on the wall! You are doing the right thing. He wants his cake and eat it too.
Thank you for the hugs and comment Jule
and the comment Alison.
This was a man whose crumbs I thougt were gold covered.
I feel shallow writing this but I liked having places to go with a man in tow, and we went to a lot of places I would have no way of going to without him. (as in I couldn’t afford it)
It was fool’s gold though I justified my involvement well isn’t it great at last someone to make a fuss of my birthday isn’t it great I can go out with attached friends with someone.
But I couldn’t work out why I was feeling empty why he could do as he pleases and I wouldn’t give him up why I felt worse when he wasn’t in my life to when he was why I could fill notebooks about his ambigious ways..
I still struggle in my thinking because he would always say how well he treated me except he would exclude me pretend sometimes he wasn’t with me when we were on a date cheat on me drop me when he felt like it come back and press the re set button which I allowed just so I could think yippppppppppppeeeeeeeeeeeeee a man is paying attention to me.
It is a horrible mess to untangle yourself from, all because I thought casual was the way to go.
I still think some other girl is benefitting from all the attention he could bestow on you and the places he could take you.. I didn’t know such jealousy exsisted within me. A trait I am working on changing by asking
would you rather a man actually pay attention to you becaue he saw a future with you or someone who just wanted sex and thats it at the end of the day sex and an ego stroke.
I am working on dismantling my smoke blowing machine top of the range on it was too.
I read this and felt angry with myself for accepting all the vague, ambiguous speak without asking questions. I was too afraid to discuss things with him, because I assumed that talking about the possibility of commitment would scare him off too soon, before he got to know me and had a chance to develop feelings too. It’s a stupid notion of me to make – EUM will be EUMs, regardless of how great I am. I was so afraid to lose him that I didn’t want to sound like I’m making demands. It’s my fault for being so abtuse, not his. If there’s one thing I’ve learned from NML’s blessed blog is that I should not only know what I want from a relationship, but also verbalize my wishes loud and clear.
NeedingSleep,
that`s the very thing I need to get my head around and I`m finding it so hard! Asking questions and spelling out what I want- I never really felt I had a right to do that or even want something for that matter.
hello
i have went into this kind of talk.
do not trust girls, be aware of ambiguity and hidden messages, set boundaries and flush when someone does not abide by them.
The one that rang close to home was the “You know my situation”. The minute I hear anything along those lines I run for the hills now.
Put another way, if a man starts playing the victim in his own life, it is a sure fire tactic to absolve him from any responsibility and he might as well be telling me “I do not have room for you in my life unless it’s on a totally non-committed basis and always on my terms.”
Put like that, no, I most certainly am NOT interested.
I hated the “I can’t add anyone new in my life” line. And we were friends for 5 years. I was no where near new.
539
My award for the most ambiguous message/s would go to the following:
“I am doing what I can.”
“I will do what I can.”
“I will see what I can do.”
(This I concluded from my ex’s message about child support: “I am paying what I can.” Asshole.)
P – I get this all the time. Along with: Nobody is perfect.
I have flaws.
I can’t right now (re: child support)
I can’t get away (re: visitation)
I’m where God wants me to be.
Natalie is right, avoiding a discussion is the red flag. I can talk about my needs, motives and plans.. why can’t you.
I’m in a relationship now where stuff gets talked about – what a change. Really it doesn’t have to be so hard. I was always on guard for the silent invisible undercurrent – the subtle changes and unspoken crap I’ve come to be vigilant for in my previous relationship. If I am not paying careful attention to what is unsaid I will get blind sided.. but in a grown up relationship people actually tell you what they think and feel and there are welcomed and sought after discussions and true listening. Who knew you don’t have to be a detective or a psychic?
Re: “It is what it is” = the stupidest platitude ever uttered. Better to say nothing than to speak these words as a response to anything. This is the laziest excuse for not doing anything about your life…
Good luck all. I’m still trying to perfect NC with my ex but this site encourages me to value my feelings and to look at my patterns for reinforcing the rejection I felt as a kid… don’t throw your pearls before swine – give your time, and smiles and love to those who can appreciate the value of those beautiful things you have. They are precious gifts you bestow, don’t cheapen them.
As always Natalie – you keep me sane and reinforce the good things I already know but often forget.
XO,
K
Well I have finally done it.
I hadn’t seen or spoken to him since June, but I wasn’t really NC because he was emailing me from time to time and I was responding. Recently he mentioned he’d be here early in the new year.
I have to really and truly give up on him and the hope that anything good will come of it or that he really cares about me in any way. He says he does and he says he thinks of me (more ambiguity, what exactly does he think when he thinks of me?)
I don’t feel there’s any point in telling him o SM done because I’ve said it so many times and then responded when he reached out. I even broke NC myself after 5 months and contacted him. Whatever I say he will not take seriously so the only thing to do is block him. So I just did. A small part of me feels happy that he will feel uncomfortable when he fires off some lazy email and gets nothing back. But I don’t flatter myself that he will feel bad for long.
The thing is, these days when I hear from him, I get such a rush of mixed anger, despair, anxiety mixed in with a tiny but of hope. It’s totally disproportionate for stupid emails, of course, but knowing there won’t be any more, ever again, feels (right now) peaceful. If he sends one or two and gets no reply then I think he’ll get the message and stop. (although the first time I went NC he did text and turn up at my work). I’ll be anxious on the days I know he’ll be in the vicinity. I might go away for a couple of days at that time. Just now, I feel fine. It’s a relief.
I feel I’ve been talking the talk but not walking
the walk.
Mymble, I am SO glad you wrote this. I am NC for weeks, then who knows why, I respond to one–even to say “No contact”, and the whole cycle begins again. The latest was an in-person request to be friends. I said no. The day after? Am em: “I need you in my life.” I had to laugh: ambiguous or what?!
Mymble,
Good for you for going NC for real. Who needs that anxiety and despair and anger? You will become a happier and more peaceful person without it. Strength and hugs to you xo
I really love BR. Thank you so much Natalie and the commenters. Your blog always gives me inspiration and hope.
Status: After the breakup of a short-term, intense, love-filled, seemingly the most healthy and best relationship I’ve been in so far (though, truly, I have dated horrible people, so it may not be saying much) with a decent, validating, communicative guy (as far as I knew…) I am slowly putting myself back together again. This time, it’s a bit easier for me, because I’ve already built a support system that pre-existed before this guy did in my life (dreams, friends, family, meditation, current work, job hunt for even better work, grad school applications) which I can rely on.
But it doesn’t mean it hurts any less. The guy *flushed* a perfectly good relationship with two healthy people (yes, I can honestly say I am much much healthier now) because he was planning to relocate to the other side of the country for the job opportunity of a lifetime. Good reason, I know, and I am not a believer in long-distance relationships myself. However, he has been in a couple and due to his health issues, he’s just chosen not to pursue it with me despite all the love-filled, happy, wonderful times we’ve shared together.
BR has helped me to:
*Not take it personally. I know his decision was based on different factors, including his NOT being ready to pursue something long-term combined with long-distance prospect combined with his worsening health conditions. Additionally, unlike other boyfriends, although he did try to make mountains out of molehills at first over the tiny issues/cracks we had in our otherwise blissful relationship during the breakup, he did admit it was more his problems than mine that led to the breakup, and that I am great and should not worry about being good enough.
*Push myself to move on. Despite the weepy week I’ve had and the feelings of falling apart at times, I can still exhale rather than wait to exhale, and push myself to not give up on a healthier relationship in the future.
*Maintain NO CONTACT. As Natalie said, good boyfriends might make good friends in the future, but not until you’re fully OVER THEM! It would be impossible to be friends with him now and although he had to push me a bit more to follow through with that NC decision, I realize it is the best for both of us. I just have to remind myself that every day because it REALLY is a struggle when we had such a great connection.
*Realize that because I’ve had the best experience out of a relationship so far as I had with this one, I can’t settle for any less next time – in fact, I’ll expect even better (long-term). And I can be more willing to wait for that to happen rather than chasing it fruitlessly by pursuing guys who raise red flags.
Thanks 🙂
Has anyone been on the receiving end of a dismissive “Cheers” email? As in “Gee, I can’t make any plans right now (meaning I’m actually seeing someone else on the side and am planning to break up with you the next time I see you), but have a nice weekend. Cheers!”
Then after dumping me, he continued to send these infuriating casual work emails like he was sending notes to his secretary, always ending with “Cheers!” Is this a typical EUM/AC thing?
Note to self: Run, don’t walk from any guy who breaks your heart and then has the nerve to write “Cheers!” on his lame correspondence.
No, but mine used to head up most of his EMs with a jaunty “Hey!”
Well Hey! To you too! I am never going to speak to you again.
Cheers!
Mymble, Since I went NC, the ex AC’s emails have had “Hey” as the subject! Definitely diminishes his telling me how much he misses me, yada, yada! I won’t reply but it’s so lame, I just thought to myself “Hay/Hey is for horses, you ass!”
Before I went NC the final time and was letting him know I was getting done, he said “I can’t imagine not having you in my life.” Also, “I just can’t help but think one day we’ll both wake up and realize we should be together.” Ambiguity much?
It’s because they are merely throwing out crumbs. His emails always followed the same formula
“Hey!
Sorry it’s been a while. I’ve been busy but thinking about you.
I’ve been going to the gym lots/reading dense philosophical works/writing poetry. I have a vague feeling of nothing very much. My career is going great too. Everyone thinks Im fantastic.
I’ll be in (your town) on —–
Hope evrything is okay with you.
A x (or A xx)”
No, but I got the ”take care for now” line…
There is a French writer who is very very popular and also controversial – several of his books are very sexually explicit and the theme is that western men can’t get the only thing they want from women (sex!) because western women are so tiresome and boring..they want to “discuss relationships, they want to HAVE relationships and some form of friendship before they have sex” ). So the recommendation is for men to go to places like Thailand where men can just buy what they want from poor (young) woman who are willing (forced?) to “sell their bodies” It is a very horrific vision and one of the characters says that actually now even western women are being forced to “come around” to the point of view of men…(by means of popular culture) and that soon ALL women will have a mechanized, detached view of sex with no emotions and NO expectations for a relationship. In other words we will all be EUMS and EUW and according to the characters in these novels – this is a good thing!!! (specially for men)
This is definitely NOT the kind of world I want to live in nor the world that I want my daughters OR son to have to face.
(The author himself seems a bit unsure about this world because the three main male characters who have this point of view all end badly…two commit suicide and the other lives his life out drugged up senseless in a mental hospital. (I was reading these when I first found BR and it was a very curious contrast)
Anyway, the point of all this is that what BR is doing is not just helping us having better relationships with others and ourselves it is revolutionary because it is building relationships on insight, honesty and integrity. That makes for a better world all around and one that I believe in.
espresso,
Let me guess: Houellebecq? The only reason I know of him is bc he was recommended to me by my (EU) ex-bf. I have bought a few books by him, did not enjoy any, really, and got greatly confused bc he is, of course, quite persuasive and the books made me feel inadequate in some way. I have read an interview w. H. and was not impressed by his personality, either.
Women whine about relationships; men watch porn? It is what it is? (joke)
I agree a bit with Freya; in that it is useless to ruminate about the past, or worry about the future. You ARE, right NOW. The trick is to learn from the past; and not make the same mistake in the future. Live YOUR life. Have some fun. Don’t let him take that while he is slithering away, too. He is still there, even when he is gone. Is that what you want?
And listen to the wise words of women who have been there….he won’t get better; you look back and realize an AC stole precious years from you; they devalued you…and the worst part is…you let them. Once you can see the forest, that is your takeaway. YOU let them.
There are a lot of lonely people out there. Quit knocking your head on the tree (it bears no fruit, offers no shade, but does have a swing!) that is firmly planted.
(This is all said in the spirit of having been there, done that, and have my gold star, cough, or two.)
still standing….beautifully said, I printed it out, great reminder and makes me smile, thank you.
OK,so he’s an assclown. Check. Idiot. Check. Perfers to sleep around than have anything meaningful. Check. Check. Check. But I still feel shit. I still think about him. I still cry like a dickhead. I’m still waiting for the shit to hit the fan and blow away. I’m still waiting for the stupid tears to disappear. I’m working all days of the week just so I can focus on something other than him and dating anyone new. I’ve written myself off like an old lady. Is this it then? This is it? Because if so I’m going to turn myself into a strumpet because there’s no way I can be a bitter nun.
hugs Jemma. No this isn’t it. You have lOTS to look forward to that will be so much healthier and will feel GOOD. You are not an old lady (but I know the feeling, I do that to myself too). Just give it a little time. I know it SUCKS right now but it DOES get better. With NC you will get over him; that’s the amazing phenomenon of NC. It worked for me before with someone who drove me nuts. Now it will work again with this AC. It’s freeing! Keep working and keeping your mind occupied and you will get past it.
Thanks Jule, I just don’t feel it. I’m tired of locking myself away so I don’t have to face him or anyone else. I’ve just lost my confidence, and I don’t know how to get it back.
Learner
big hugs to you. i was a ow and found out about a new ow . the ex mm either got found out or left and is now dating new ow. Me im okay im getting there , i dont think about it to much and as the days go by i getting better . i remain nc as i couldnt imagine asking for crumbs . this post has made me realises , he said things like ” i care about a lot ” which actually meant , not enough . etc etc . i dont want him hes a liar . i want someone that wats me and only me. As the days of nc tick by i get stronger and learn to take back my life before he exsisted in it 🙂
Tired,
Thanks for the hugs. I am glad to hear you are still NC with the exMM. Whether they are with new OW’s or old OW’s or with their wives is not important to US. We deserve better, and we can only be responsible for ourselves. That is really starting to sink in for me now. We cannot save any other woman from these cowardly, ambiguous men. Hugs back to you xo
I have a question:
My ex was MM as well and an ass clown. At least to me he was. His wife divorced him, he was with me two months before I found out he was on dating websites. I’d been with him ten years.
To go into all of it is too painful. I’m still strugglign with it and I’ve been NC for two years, hard core. Last Feb, a little over a year out of the relationshit, he married victim three. He started dating her six months after relatinonshit ended.
One of you mentioned that your ex got engaged three weeks after you went NC.
If these guys are so commitmentphobic, WHY do they get re-married, or move in with someone?
I have had a very hard time since my ex remarried.
Third time for him. It’s hard because I took rejection very personally. As if he was just waiting for the right woman to come alone.
WHy do they string women along and then suddenly MARRY one of them? Does this mean they have magically “reformed”?
I know my part in all of this. I understand clearly the lack of respect for myself, as well as boundaries.
I just don’t get why they tell one woman (or more) all this ambiguous shit, and either he or she break up and before you know it, he’s headed down the aisle with someone.
What does that mean about me? About the other women he was with, but he chose ONE to marry? BTW, I was his OW in his second marriage for ten years. It shouldn’t have been surprising that he woudl cheat on me and he did.
But he made me feel like I brought this shit out of him. A poison container, while he intimated that other women, or at least one, one day would be the ultimate catch.
Bastard. Anyway…
K
Commitmentphobic men marry. Marriage is not a magic wand. The divorce rate proves that. Someone who gets married after a very short “courtship”, say less than a year, is either unduly optimistic, trying to prove something, or unrealistic.
I know one who married in his twenties. Beautiful wife. Beautiful children. Beautiful house. In his fifties he had an affair and left her.Of course, you could stalk these marriages for twenty plus years to see how it turns out, and get the satisfaction of watching him do over another woman. But I suggest you get on with your own life. And one day, if you think of them at all, you’ll hope that they grew up and didn’t make another woman unhappy.
I’ve said it before and I will say it again to put the final nail in the “he will change and come back to me” false hope. If he changes he will want a new kind of relationship where he hasn’t been the bad guy.
watch out that you’re not hooked on the excitement of the highs and lows and the dubious challenge of winning over an unlikely prospect. “I’m so sexually magnetic/interesting/complicated/kind/willing/patient/perceptive that I am able to turn this player/MM/addict/EUM into a proper husband!”
In every way, my current boyfriend is better than the exes. There is better for you out there. Even before I met my boyfriend my single life was better than the crappy relationships I had before.
There is such truth here: “If he changes he will want a new kind of relationship where he hasn’t been the bad guy.” Absolutely! I really believe that these men, unless they are completely self-deluded and soulless psychopaths, know exactly what kind of shits they’ve been and they hope deep down that they can find a way to redeem themselves and recover their self-respect. They think that in starting fresh “maybe this is my way out of the cesspool I’m in.” So if they “change” for the new woman, it’s more that they are grasping for a way to change themselves – maybe for some of them it feels like a last chance, and they are determined to hang on for dear life and “I gotta make this one work.” So again, it’s not about YOU, it’s about them.
Mine WAS a psychopath.
K,
try to look at reality; he was not an Ac just to you. He is an all round AC; to his wife, on whom he cheated with you for 10 years, to those women on dating websites, as he was with you and his wife when he was spinning them who knows what.
Don`t make excuses for him and try to put the blame on yourself. He has a pattern of marriage, cheating , multiple other women, an absolute nightmare. Reading your post it`s quite clear that he is a lying, cheating, mindf…ing manipulator. He has not morphed for her and she is not the “right” woman “for him. Remember, he married two before….She will get exactly what you and his wife got. He is not a prize.Marrying someone does not mean that you get the relationship- his ex-wives didn`t.Focus on what you know about him for sure and those are all very negative things.
Amen sushi!
K,
The only absolute indicator of a man’s future behaviour is his past behaviour.
He couldn’t have chosen you to marry because you would’ve been onto his game as he hunched over his laptop late at night registering three or four new email accounts and inventing new dating personas. He would’ve been standing there in your bathroom mirror taking photos of his headless torso (sucking in his stomach and tensing his biceps) while calling out to you on the other side of the door ‘I’ll just be a minute honey…’. You would have had to take call after call from him telling you he’s ‘working late’. You’d want to look at his phone, and obviously he would never allow that or you’d see all his texts and photos of random headless women’s bare breasts on there — each bare breast owner thinking she’s the special secret girlfriend. Who knows — you may have had random women with angry, tear-streaked faces turning up at your home with anonymous letters for you telling you all about your husband’s sex life. Because this is exactly what was, is, and will be happening in the life of his third wife. Because she thinks he’s clean, honest and genuine, he’s bought himself extra time and space in which to operate before she susses him out. You know very well indeed that he’s anything but clean, honest and genuine. Not with his previous wives, not with his previous girlfriends, not with his current wife, and not with you. Please understand that this is the only reason why he picked her, why he gave her the bum’s rush to the registry book, and why he couldn’t have done that with you.
Griz,
Do I know you? Brilliant. Thank you for taking me out of the cog/dis. These two are in my face as she works just down the road and he works nearby as well. When I went NC, I MEANT it. He has tried to “play games” in his car when he has seen me. There is nothing WORSE for me in the world, really, than to want my NC and feel “infiltrated”, violated, even though I know they have a right to be wherever they want. He doesn’t LIVE here, he lives in the sticks and her business just started up this past summer. I know it’s mean, but I hope it’s an EPIC FAIL soon so I can go out of my home and do what I need to do without an all out PTSD trigger when they, she or he pass by.
Thank you so much to rest of you too. But you nailed, Gris.
He’s a psychopath, by the way. I”m sure that wouldn’t surprise you either. Thanks again.
There are several women here, aside from you and I, who have the ‘Psychopath’ stamp in our emotional passports. NO ONE asks for THAT journey to the innermost circle of hell.
Griz,
Absolutely agree!! And HELL it surely is.
It is also my upbringing with psychopathic/narcissistic bio family. No one deserves that kind of hell and especially children. UGH! I know…
Glad you survived, Griz.
right on, indeed, grizelda.
K… You cant turn a frog into a prince. It will always be a frog. Period .End. They are what they are and as long as they can mezmerize someone into believing they are a prince they will do it. The thing is eventually that person realizes that he was a frog all along.It might not be tommorrow or next week but eventually the frog appears. He has a horrid track record with women.
Be glad you are free of him and be good to you….
I also wanted to add to my response the following as I have to remind myself “constantly” of this.. Why worry about what he is doing & who he is doing it with.
I should be focusing all my time on me and asking myself:
Why did I stay so long ??
Why were crumbs good enough ??
Why was I ok with everything ??
Why, Why , Why ???
And its obvious to me that I need to work on these issues within myself if I ever want to be in a successful fulfilling relationship.Thanks to BR I am slowly finding my way thru all the why’s and you can too ….
Kit kat,
I didn’t clarify myself so it would be easy to assume where I’m at in process. I have done a ton of healing work. I triggered reading the posts. I have had a really hard time lately. I’ve been out two years and I understand myself completely and am working hard on my recovery. I am well educated about personality disorders and understand that my ex had one. I know what my own dynamics are/were and why I stayed, why I did what I did. Things are very tough for me right now. I’ve been diagnosed with several illnesses/conditions since the break up occurred. The break up was my doing. I feel a bit of anger about my health and about the reality that the extreme stress and ten years of my youth were wasted on this man and now I’m feeling a little like I’m experiencing karma, carrying ALL the shame (his/mine) while he completely skates. The holidays are very hard. I have had many, many losses in my efforts to heal. not just with my ex, but my entire biological, pathological family and many friends. And one of my children now.
So yes, I struggle when I see them. That healthy, happy image is very painful. He suffers nothing. My grieving process and anger are going to be long. But I refuse to give up when I’ve worked hard to remove what has been a lifetime of abuse from my life. I hope that clarifies things a little. Thank you for responding. **hugs**
K. I understand. My ex was a narc. I was lucky. i escaped after 6 months. He was/is very reluctant to let me escape as I was a superb source of supply, due to my childhood issues.My mother is narc and father was an absent alcoholic. Anyway, ex narc had a long term on/off g/f. 14 years I believe. She had a daughter ( not his) and since she went NC n him for past 2 years he has tried to manipulate her via HER daughter. To the extent that he now has HER daughter living with him. He has never even lived with them but has manipulated things to the point where he is such a good guy, he has used his family contacts to get the teen daughter a great internship blah blah. It is not because he gives a toss about the daugter, although she is a passable source of supply, it is more about how this negatively affects the long term ex. God I am so glad I am out of this dysfunctional mess.
Victorious,
I totally hear you. My ex uses his children, mainly his daughter, as a tool. He used her to help lure new victim three. I’m sure he triangulates her with the ex wife too. I mean, I feel sorry for his daughter. What teenager do you know that doesn’t respond to a credit card and clothes, money? He uses money to manipulate her.It works. I don’t think he treats his son as well. His son didn’t want him to get remarried in the first place, but true to form, ex psychopath doesn’t care. None of them matter, they are all pawns in his game of chess. I’m sorry you experienced this growing up. It’s clear that the children of these men will pay in the future…just like we did.
I hope my ex’s ex wife is much healthier and gets his crap. It’s the only hope for those kids. I suspect new victim is a bit of a narc..
There should be laws in place to protect children from these disorders. I wish there were more psych evals during custody situations. A disordered one is anything but a good parent.
I still hurt. It will take awhile for me, but I do know that I’d rather be in this place too, than with him, Victorious.
How is your healing progressing?
Thanks K. Good to hear from you. I get so much strength from knowing other people understand. My mates are brilliant but of course there is a point where they cannot really understand what I have been through. i never would have understood it until I had this experience with the narc, despite my background. I have good and bad days. His birthday soon (NO CARD ! NO CARD ! NO CARD!), and then a possible face to face if he shows up at a work meeting I am due to attend. Hope you are doing OK.
To K:
Maybe he thought he could “get away” with more b.s. diet with her. The possibilities are endless.
Plus, he was MM and cheating with you for 10 years?
All kinds of bad karma in his past. You should be sending the two of them a thank you card. Her hell has just begun. Not that it matters. What matters is you getting on with your life; getting healthy so you attract healthy people. If you can’t start dating; start with making a few new girlfriends. (And make yourself a promise not to start whining to them about ‘him’.) It will do wonders for your self esteem and in getting over it.
To those who commented on My comment:
You are in fact missing the point. I am not making statements about casual sex. If you read the things I write over and over you might actually see that I am not trying to talk about sex at all. If you are allowed to pass on your wisdom and experience to other women so am I. Just because you are here posting your comments does not mean that all the people reading these comments agree with your viewpoint. There have been others besides myself that have made comments similar to my own. I am clearly not the only one that believes it is possible to look to the future, to go out and have fun without it all being about getting a man to be in a relationship with, or analyze the past over and over again to figure out what you could have done different. Do it different in the future!
I am simply trying to put a positive spin on life. Telling anyone who may listen that it is OK to have fun with your life. That all men aren’t assclowns. There is life after relationship death. You can go through abuse of any kind and still live a normal happy life. You don’t have to live in an ivory tower waiting on someone to save you. Save Yourself!
I get that it is very therapeutic to chat about your experiences. I also get how much it helps for ladies to hear these stories. The stories have helped ME. I don’t have to agree with your approach to healing just like you don’t have to agree with mine. We both, however, have a right to our approach. I want to be sure its out there in the ether that there IS another way. To be clear, you don’t have to have casual sex to go out and have fun with men. Having fun is independent of sex – but if you want to do it the only thing stopping you is the stigma society – mostly women – will place on you.
I am sorry if you cannot see that I relate very well to the experiences you all have had. It is probably because I am not sharing all the BAD crap that has happened to me. Instead, I focus on how to live life in a way that propels me to a brighter future. In sharing this with others that have gone through similar situations to myself maybe someone else will find their way to a brighter future as well.
As a side note: I know the way in which I use language is somewhat aggressive and argumentative. Its just me and not meant to be rude or chiding. Its the way I communicate: with force. Please do not take it as me talking down to anyone because I’m not. I too have been wounded and had to fight to get my self respect back. How do you think I ended up here reading baggage reclaim? I ended up here because I could not do it alone.
Its worth noting that what I am espousing here is what I learned from Natalie, and from BR – from all of you. To me these values are worth standing up for. As much as I would like to have everyone’s approval I do not need it to continue encouraging myself and others to live a life worth living.
Fair enough Freya, I misunderstood you, although in context it was approving of another post which WAS actually about casual sex.
Freya,
FWIW I thought your last post was about fun, not sex.
I played road hockey with six guys and one other girl this weekend. Definitely not something that would have happened with just the girls.
Super fun and no sex at all!
Freya
“Having fun is independent of sex – but if you want to do it the only thing stopping you is the stigma society – mostly women – will place on you.”
That’s not the reason I’m not having sex. And it’s not the reason my boyfriend is not having sex. We both want sex, which has become very apparent but we won’t for religious reasons. I don’t care about stigma or society.
I think you’re missing the point. it’s perfectly clear on this blog that not all men are assclowns (in fact they are a minority), that a man is not the answer, and that the EUM most certainly is not. It’s BR that enabled me to be happily single for three years (prior to that I had been unhappily single for three years).However, and I love Nat for this, she always holds out for us the very definite likelihood that we will meet a man and have a fulfilling relationship if we get our act together.
“You can go through abuse of any kind and still live a normal happy life. You don’t have to live in an ivory tower waiting on someone to save you.” Yes, that is exactly what we are about.
Finally, to everyone – I have had infinitely more sexual partners than my boyfriend. Lose the “all men want is sex” notion. It’s not true. And, no, he’s not a tragic loser. He is very attractive indeed. I didn’t see it at first in my previous state of asexuality, but, yes he is. (yay!)
I like this statement:
Lose the “all men want is sex” notion. It’s not true. And, no, he’s not a tragic loser. He is very attractive indeed.
I have talked with many men about sex and the majority have had sex with less than 12 women in their entire life. The avg (from the ones I personally have polled) is around 5 sexual partners. Even my last bf who was drop dead freakin gorgeous and an ace in the sak had only 8 partners. I guess I made 9. lol. Its very clear to me that men are not out for just sex. They are generally looking for a woman that they can connect to on a deep level. Even the assclowns.
It is true though that men typically lead with sex. Its also true that at first they are pretty much talking to you because they WANT to have sex with you. The hope is always there however that a real connection will be made.
Glad to hear someone else say it. 🙂
I on the other hand have had sex with over 100 men. I actually lost count around the age of 17 when I was at 50. I slowed down around age 26 when I actually had my first orgasm during sex. I slowed WAY down at about 33 and have had sex with only 8 men in that time. I have a bad memory for these things so it could be 10 or 12 or 15. Still…slowed WAY down.
A lot of the women I talk to are at about the 20 – 50 range when it comes to sexual partners. I would wager its more about sex for women than it is for men.
Freya
Yep, I’ve observed similar. A magnetically attractive man I knew had had seven sexual partners. I can’t be as frank as you, but let’s just say that my no. was higher that his.
I don’t judge anyone on how many sexual partners they’ve had. The biblical standard is one person that you are married to, maybe a few more if someone dies. I fell short of that a long time ago.I’m glad my boyfriend, who did stick to the straight and narrow, doesn’t hold it against me.
I know it’s not for everyone but my period of celibacy/singledom was really helpful in forming my boundaries. I was able to see myself as a person entirely separate from any man. No exes, no hangers on, no validators. I had a wobbly when I started out with the boyfriend, but I was able to regroup thanks to BR. I think of it as a partnership rather than a merger.
Freya
Unless the women are having sex with one another, or themselves, then logically women and men are having exactly the same amount of sex.
Freya
Also, I am very sorry to hear of what happened to you as a child/young teenager. Was there alcohol/drugs involved?
Hey Mymble, actually its not logical that men and women are having the same amount of sex. For example, I could have sex with 6 different men all of whom I was their first. Now they have had 1 partner and I have had 6.
Please do not be sorry for me having so much sex when I was young. I had a great time. Me and my girlfriends sometimes even had competitions or would switch partners. Maybe it was the crowd I hung in we were like hippies touting free love; we all had sex with each other. And Yes both drugs and alcohol were involved. I don’t regret it though. Like I said, it was fun! I believe in living your life with no regrets. I am not gonna be on my death bed wishing I had less sex or wishing I hadn’t called that guy. But I might regret NOT doing it.
Freya,
Maybe it would help if you´d open up and shared all the bad crap that´s happened to you, it might be a way to truly leave it all behind.
Just a thought, don´t get offended if you don´t agree.
Hey Freya – sorry in advance because this is a screed.
I think that your point is fair enough, in that we ALL of us want to get to the point where we can be happy, relaxed, have fun, meet men and not end up bitter and angry.
I kind of think I’m there now (I’m super-busy, like, and can’t get out much, but still). Thing is, though, to get there I had to go through the deluded stage, the furious stage, the frantically bitter stage, the very upset stage, the oh-it’s-really-about-things-that-I-have-to-unlearn-from-my-teens-stage and the frightened and nervous and are-all-men-horrible? stage. What’s been interesting about reading BR over quite an extended period of time is watching other women go through exactly the same stages, until their posts appear less frequently because they’re out living their lives.
Here’s where I understand why people sometimes get tetchy about your posts… quite often you portray the goal as the process. If you’ve got through it and made it out the other side then good for you, but equally, if you were still in the middle of all the processing and the painful realisations then it probably wouldn’t be very pleasant to read someone else who says “hey! It’s easy, you just need to CHILL OUT and stop being SO UPTIGHT” (which is effectively what you seem to be saying, apologies if I’ve misread).
I can see your point in that it takes effort to avoid getting stuck in one stage or the other, and I don’t particularly agree with the man-hating that sometimes goes on either (although should admit that I’m quite prejudiced against AssClowns). But afaics, one of the functions of this commenting facility is to give people a safe place to express their experience of the stages and gain support to get through it.
Saying “Hey, you want to be where I am! You can get here by being where I am!” (again, paraphrasing) doesn’t necessarily help people with that. If you’ve got any pointers about HOW you managed to get yourself in the mindset of being able to relax around people/men and to enjoy yourself and to leave the past behind then might get a better response.
Nobody here wants to be bitter. Nobody wants to hate all men. Nobody here wants to be unhappy and stuck on the past – mostly cos those are really silly things to want. But if it were that simple to avoid it then we wouldn’t be here in the first place.
BR is super-brilliant because it gives you guidelines on HOW to avoid those eventualities and change your choices so that you don’t end up there. Nobody needs telling that it’s a bad place to end up.
I agree with you Yoghurt. The well meaning advice from Freya is a little bit like telling a clinically depressed person to ‘just cheer up’. It’s a nice message but makes the depressed person feel even more hopeless because they can’t just cheer up as suggested. They are not going to respond, “Oh, I hadn’t thought of that.” Most of us here are letting go of things, in our own time, in our own way. To me, the suggestion that we aren’t wanting to be happy and hate all men because we heal different than Freya is her over simplifying the process. To me, it mildly touches on the same nerve that the AC used to touch when he told me I was wrong and misguided to feel and behave the way I did. This may be unpopular, but I think her exposure to sexual causality as a stripper has her more comfortable with the idea of her body being used as an escape, or for fun on a casual level. ( example, in my I job do invasive medical procedures with confidence, but I wouldn’t expect her to) She says in her latest comment that it isn’t about casual sex, but about having fun with men. (ie; “To be clear, you don’t have to have casual sex to go out and have fun with men”) Okay, I understand where she is coming from. BUT… some aren’t ready. If you are struggling with boundaries and self esteem, dating for fun can end up being more shit to sift through and potentially harmful. Taking a break from dating is a personal choice, and not always steeped from hating men or being bitter. It can be a very healthy choice. I have fun going to yoga, hiking, taking dance class, going to art openings, joining a writing group, joining Meet Up. I have fun, but it doesn’t involve dating. I will date when it happens. This is how I enjoy life and don’t put men and dating at the top of my life goals anymore. It seems like Freya agrees that we need to stop putting men at our fore focus, but she suggests we just do this by changing our attitude about dating them. When I am ready, I will date. Simple.
Freya, I like reading your input. I don’t always agree with it, but that is precisely why its valuable. It makes me evaluate my own beliefs and either change them or decide to stay where I am. As for touching a nerve, it did mildly, but that is part of my learning, to let others think they way they do without feeling threatened or defensive.
…I should add that I like Freya’s input too – I didn’t say in my post. 🙂 Ftr I think that you make a lot of good perceptive points, Freya, and I know that certainly sometimes *I* (can’t speak for anyone else) do need a bit of challenging to pull myself out of a mope.
selkie – as I was reading that, an image popped into my head of you doing invasive medical procedures for fun on a casual level. I know that isn’t what you were saying, but it did make me laugh!
“…but that is part of my learning, to let others think they way they do without feeling threatened or defensive.”
I love this I thought it was really well put – I’m having to learn that one all over the shop atm.
“I love this *and* I thought it was really well put.” Tsk.
Yoghurt,
Ha! Bet you wouldn’t want to be my patient! No seriously, I have to keep my cool at work and not let the adrenaline get me rattled when emergencies come up. Steady hands, steady mind. I feel very comfortable in a setting others might get queasy or rattled. Hence the comparison to being comfortable doing things others may not be. If you were my patient, you’d be in very good hands. It’s funny how confident I am at work, but how I can get so wigged out over an out of the blue text or unexpectedly seeing an ex walk down the street. At work I keep my emotions out of it. That’s the key, I guess.
Freya,
I don’t think it was so much the “casual sex” discussion resurrection that made some of us groan collectively. I think it was more the overt (“thou doth protest too much”) and covert (whether intentioned or not) superior tone of your comment. As if somehow the women on here DISAGREE with you that, yes, you can (and SHOULD) go out there and have fun, meet men, get over yourself, stop being so untrusting, etc. I would venture to say that MOST commenters on here display the same attitude. We are not in our “ivory towers” waiting to be saved. Most of us are on here to work on the BIGGER issues that lead us to bad relationships. So that we can FIX them and not end up there again. So that we are conscious. I don’t need to be educated on how to go out and have fun. Otherwise I’d be reading a “Learning how to go out and have a laugh and meet men” blog. But I’m not. Got that down. What I DON’T have down (yet) is the bit about which men I should invest more time with, men with whom I can share a mutual love relationship. That’s why I’m here.
Your viewpoint is valid and your comments, at least as far as it’s up to me, are welcome. But please understand why some of us are reacting in certain ways to how you express yourself. Others on here, even those of us who may have similar life experiences as yours, don’t need to know how to reinvent the wheel.
Hope my words weren’t too harsh, Freya. I just wanted to clarify things the way I see them in this quest for more clear communication.
Wishing you well,
Revs
Revs, Exactly!
In Freya’s and another recent poster’s case, they are preaching to the choir. Many of us have a lot of experience and ability at having fun and keeping our interactions with men in perspective but that isn’t why we are here on BR.
Hi Freya; I read your post as you intended because I wondered why every one was jumping all over it yesterday, and re-read it. Left me scratching my head a little bit. Like when Nat wrote at length about having a ‘tell’, and then describing it in major detail. And then people wrote back and said “can you explain a tell?”
lmao. thank you Anon. i am seriously laughing out loud.
i figure i will just keep posting when i can. besides i get a lot out of the feedback.
cheers
Cc. Not,surprised the AC hung up on up on u. As well as this demonstrating further disrespectful behaviour they take poorly to being called on their shite. Exactly why long periods of NC with my deceased ex AC the (that I only wish I’d been been able to maintain from my first attempt!)
BR Ladies,
WOW,I’m simply blown away and so grateful for your support.If this doesn’t keep me on the right path I don’t know what will. BR has literally been my lifeline the past months. Losing my child has unhinged me and I’ve panicked and ‘lost it’ on a few occasions. Each time I’ve reached out to BR and you have always helped me.
I have taken all your advice on board. He offered to split the cost, but I declined his offer saying it was still too expensive. He responded with “Maybe another time”. There will be no other time. I wanted to write to you all individually, but I didn’t want to take up any more space so I’ve been brief. I hope to give back one day soon. Thank you all so much and I hope I haven’t missed anyone.
Learner, you nailed it! I read your post over and over. I’m hiding my head in shame here,can you believe that I actually got so far as to look up flights and accommodation!! It was a moment of pure weakness and self-destructive madness, but the good thing is that I stopped it. Can I also add that in the midst of all this anxiety your post made me laugh out loud: “AC, you da bomb!” and yes, he does sound like a patronizing, self-absorbed twit! I could fill a book with his patronizing expressions. Huge hugs back, sis xxx
Lilia, yes! On a rational level I know this man is bad news, he is a manipulative, cruel, cold, callous person without any compassion or empathy. He is the source of so much grief and I cannot believe that I wanted to meet up with him again. I am looking forward to the day when my emotions catch up. Thank you for the strength and hugs,xxx.
Teddie,I will take your advice and pamper myself instead. I haven’t been shopping in months so will buy myself some new clothes and have a long overdue hair-cut. Thank you and hugs to you too, xxx.
Kit-Kat, please accept my deepest condolences for the loss of your mother. I lost my baby this year and I understand the pain of losing someone we dearly love. The pain was almost indescribable. I’ve been working hard at cutting the ties between the AC, me and my baby, but clearly I still have work to do.Thank you for your support and I’ve definitely jumped back on that wagon, xxx.
Magnolia, yes,I would have had sex with him; more oxytocin, more bonding, more shattering of my emotions and the journey back home would have been agony. Your comments have prompted me to re-think the work connection. It’s a bit complicated and I’m not quite sure how to extricate myself yet. He was my thesis supervisor and although I’ve actually left that university we are working on a related study that began before my thesis was finished. This has helped me secure a place on a PhD program. Of course, he has reminded me on several occasions how he has ‘helped’ my career prospects. The new university is interested in our joint work and are keen to have him on board. He is quite prominent in this particular field. He wants to continue working together, but obviously there are too many feelings involved at least on my part. I need to think about this more. For now I intend on following your advice. It will be all about the work. Thank you, xxx
Sadder but Wiser, it’s true BR has helped pull me back from the brink. I was just about to throw myself at this cruel man’s feet and I’m sure he would have enjoyed giving me another good kicking. I’m not sure I would have survived another one. Thank you, xxx.
La Pintura Bella, that man triggers so much grief in me. I sometimes get so overwhelmed; it’s like a panic attack. For a few weeks I handled working with him well, but it’s quite clear now that I won’t heal properly until he’s completely out of my life. As I just mentioned to Magnolia I’m not quite sure how to do this yet. I don’t want to change my area of interest. I will have to give this some serious thought. Thank you for your support Beautiful Painter, xxx.
Natashya, I took a big tumble, but I’m up and back on my feet, thank you for your support, xxx.
Victorious, I almost did all of what you mention! Thank goodness for BR. I dread to think of the mess I would be in if I hadn’t found this site. I agree I’m not as far down the road as I thought. Now I’m cringing at the pathetic tone of my emails. I actually ASKED him if I could change my mind about going over there!! I want to be stronger like you seem to be and like many others here on BR. Thank you for helping me, xxx.
Grace, I re-read the dialogue between us and, yes, he was certainly playing me like a fish on a line. I have put a poster up on my wall that simply says “Keep it Real”. I’m now going to add one that says “He.does.not.care”. I just wish it wasn’t so hard to accept this. Thank you, xxx
Allison, “What do you plan to get out of this?”. Great question! What sprang to mind was comfort, understanding, love, honesty, respect, intimacy, etc, etc. Delusional or what! LoL!. What would I have got? Sex with no emotion, no commitment and further depletion of my already very low supplies of self-esteem. Thank goodness I returned to reality. Thank you and I intend spending more time contemplating this question in my journal, xxx
Fearless, yes he is a total and utter f++ker and I might put that on my wall as well. The best thing I can do is stop fooling myself that he isn’t. I’m actually quite shocked that people like this walk the earth.I’ve had relationships turn sour in the past, but I’ve never, ever been treated this way. Thank you, xxx.
Lilly,
I am glad you’re feeling stronger. I did shilly shally around for way too long. I read what he wrote to you and hated the way he turned it round so from being his invitation to you it became you wanting to come & him pretending to try and put you off. Malicious mind games. I suspect “punishment” for having dumped him.
If you can find a way to separate your professional lives that really would be so much better. He’s like a vulture circling you.
However you will feel better, things will get better; I haven’t done myself many favours but I am much happier than this time last years even though some days are better than others.
One day you will be able to think of him and feel absolutely nothing.
Lilly…You are very welcome. I think this whole thing is harder for you because not only are you grieving the loss of the illusionary relationship and finally seeing him without his mask, but you got a double whammy in losing your precious baby AND him being a complete and utter pr**k about it.
Each one of those losses is enough to knock a girl on her fanny for quite awhile, but at the same time??? OMG! Please know that I, for one, think you are doing quite well handling this. And, I also think you are a whole lot stronger than you are realizing or giving yourself credit for.
Hang in there. Come here whenever the urge to rant or fall off the wagon strikes. We’ll catch you! xxx
Mymble, I saw my therapist today and she also believes he was ‘punishing’ me for declining his offer first. Although she didn’t want to label him she has urged me to keep well clear as she strongly suspects he has narcissistic pd. She says that narcissists will reward compliance with their plans, but if you go against them they will punish you in some way. It all adds up. I’m not nearly as vulnerable as I was a few months back and I’ve bounced back quicker this time. I know the only way out of this is to get out for good and I’m going to work on that. Good luck with your NC Mymble and you’re right one day they won’t mean anything to us.
Runnergirl, I saw your message above, thank you. I’m so relieved that I won’t be experiencing that trip back. I’ve finally done something good for myself and I am worth it!
Lilly,
I am so glad to hear you were able to stop the self-destructive fantasy of going to visit the exMM. You really ARE stronger than you think, even in your moments of weakness (which we all have!). It’s great that you had a therapist visit just after this episode, too. She is right – don’t let him punish you any more while playing these games. Stick to the work at hand, the research, and think long and hard about how you may be able to minimize work contact with him once this manuscript is done.
When do you start your PhD studies, btw? Can you find a new research team/advisor in your same area of interest?
Hugs, and welcome back to “NC with someone you work with” sis 🙂 xoxo
(((( Lily ))))
I’m sooooo sorry this has happened to you. This man sounds like a disordered one. It is true that we can’t go around “labeling” people, but most of these typess of men are NEVER diagnosed for their disorders. If we do not educate others about personality disorders, because we aren’t allowed to “label” them, many more women will be wounded and will fail to understand the monumental impact upon her and what HE/SHE was (yes, they can be female too).
The lack of empathy is so crystal clear. The lack of remorse, the lack of guilt. His entitled attitudes and shifting of blame to you, are CLASSIC characteristics of this disorder.
One of the things I would ask you to SERIOUSLY consider and something I continuously advocate for the survivors of men like this that I support, is that true and genuine healing CANNOT occur without one hundred percent TOTAL no contact. If there is any way you can get OUT of the situation with work, including but not limited too, sharing that this man is your abuser and dangerous to you, DO. IT. These men are hellbent on YOUR destruction. If he still has power in any way in your life, he will make your life a living hell. It doesn’t matter what you say or do. They don’t CARE. You see…this men are like addicts. They are addicted to YOUR PAIN. I know that is very hard to fathom, but it is the truth. There is a wonderful book about psychopaths that I think every woman who has been burned by one should read “WOmen Who Love Psychopaths” by Sandra Brown M.A. This will give you a CLEAR understanding that these men are, as Sandra puts it “Emotionally rewarded by the harm they cause”.
They never stop if you have even a miniscule amount of involvement.
This man knows he’s hurt you. That’s a “win” for him, because this, in his mind, means he maintains power over you. Control over you. If you are connected in any way to him, without being completely NC ALL AROUND, he will continue to find ways to HARM you.
I wish you the very best and a life FREE from this man. Completely.
Learner, what would I do without my NC sister! I start my studies early next year. I have no idea how to get out of this yet, but I will. Just wish it didn’t hurt so much. Huge hugs and I hope it’s going ok for you xxxx.
K,
OMG!I ordered an e copy of Women Who Love Psychopaths and it’s all there right in front of me! Page after page. I don’t know what to do yet, it’s incredibly painful, but I want it to stop. Thank you so much.
Just catching yr shout out Rev! Yes! The LESSON is EXACTLY to avoid placing ourselves in harms way in the first place! And as SOON AS WE SNIFF even WHIFF of AC or unacceptable / red flag behaviour TO HIGH TAIL IT OUTTA THERE IMMEDIATELY!!!!!
Where we have failed at this, it is instead to IDENTIFY WHAT MADE US VULNERABLE to lowering our BOUNDARIES & to watch out for these weaknesses in future. Meanwhile our job NOW is to FORGIVE OURSELVES & REBUILD OURSELVES (stronger & with more robust boundaries than ever before) & to move on / forward into our journey of SELF LOVE.
Got it? Too easy! Should be ticked off by Friday! (KIDDING!) LOL xx
After some months of NC, I’ve been receiving emails that say succinctly what I thought I would like to have heard back when… Thanks to BR, I can see that the “I miss you”and “Wish we could be together” lines are as ambiguous as anything else. They are as insubstantial as cotton candy. He misses me as a result of his own actions and we could have been together if he wished. End of back then. It makes me realize and rebel against how much power I was willing to give him. “Pick me! Pick me!” Ugh. I just found another message today in a seldom-used email where he tried to get to me using storm Sandy – just as you warned, dear Natalie! (I don’t live there but have family there.) Oh, please. I will admit, though, that I’m glad I didn’t see it at the time because it seemed thoughtful. Ambiguity at it’s best just to get a foot back in the door is all.
I received a tex from mine last night at 11:00 that asked if I was awake and that he’d love to fuck me. I hadn’t heard from him in over a week. When I asked why he would love to fuck me, he responded “You know why. I am drunk and stupid.” I turned my phone off and and a fitfull night’s sleep. Ugh!
what a charmer. FLUSHHHHH!!
Nancy,
Sounds like a keeper 🙁
I would change my number, or block!!! UGGGH!
I wrote an email this morning, but haven’t sent it. Not sure if I should. But I wrote:
“So you would love to fuck me at 11:00 at night because:
1. You were drunk so you wanted me.
2. You are stupid so you wanted me.
3. You had already sent a text to others first and when they turned you down, you text me.
4. You had already slept with someone but still wanted sex with me.
5. You really didn’t want sex, but a meaningful conversation. Ha.
6. You had already done something fun with others, and then knew you could call me at 11:00 and get a quick roll in the hay.
7. You know I’ve agreed and done it so many, many times, and you wanted to see if I’d do it again.
Oh….it just makes my blood boil. But then again….I have never said no until now, so why wouldn’t he expect it.
no no no!!! don’t contact him. treat him to something new: your silence.
Nancy Don,t send it. He will prob get a kick out of it.
Nancy,
I understand exactly where you’re at. I cannot tell you how many times I lived to REGRET a response.
Several years into my MM relationshit, he did something particularly cruel to me. I’d asked him NOT to do it again, but telling him not to, only made him determined TO DO it. Well, this one time, I went NC. For two weeks. He sent an email and I read it. DAMN ME. The sob story. I remember CLEARLY sitting there and pondering whether I should respond, over and over. I hesitated, wrote a response, drafted, etc. I caved. I remember that moment and will always remember it. I had never been so clear as to what GET OUT meant. I didn’t do it. I didn’t listen to myself and I paid for that with seven more years of hell and pain.
He wants you to respond. NC is the hardest thing you will ever do. This just says you’re still invested. It also tells him he can keep right on screwing you over and that it doesn’t take much. Men like this view you as STUPID and WEAK.
Are you? THIS IS HOW HE THINKS.
Show him that you’re NOT. Show yourself that you’re NOT and how dare he assume now that you ARE.
Don’t do it. You will live to regret it.
Wow…thank you all. I haven’t sent it but will keep it in my “drafts” email file just to look at when I feel weak. He has a hold on me that I’m not sure how to shake, but I can also say that this text that I share is the tip of the ice berg of what I’ve gone through and received. I’m thinking journaling will help me, and put a BIG X at the bottom of each page for every day I go no contact. I try to be nice and be a friend…every time I do that, he comes on strong with sexual text messages.
Once I was telling him via text about a book I was reading about Condelessa Rice. His response: “Have you ever been fisted?” Where in the hell did that come from??
And he send me quotes and bizarre messages all the time that I have to try to dephicer.
Anyway…thanks for your comments. It definitely gives me courage to go NC.
(better late than never)
In my experience, when a person makes those ambiguous comments, the person often considers themselves things such as (but not limited to) “free-spirited”, “cool”, “chill”, “laid back”, “(insert something here)”. Also in my experience, “free-spirited” means flaky, flighty, indecisive, and non-committal. No matter if the person is a romantic interest, friend, acquaintance, relative, etc., in my experience, those ambiguous comments make the person quite transparent and their motives as clear as a sunny day.
In my experience when people make those kinds of comments they are drunk.
Lilly … what kept going through my mind with the last AC was this : what makes his feelings, thoughts, wants, time, children, etc more important than mine???! Uh .. nothing. He just thought they were.
This douchebag of a man/ your ex, is a douche if you’re in his life or not. Its a constant. (You know this.) But YOU ARE LOVABLE. His not loving you has NOTHING to do with you and your lovable, wonderful self. You are lovable. He’s a douchebag.
Continue to act in a way that nurtures, loves, and shows respect to you. Work towards being who you want to be. (You’re gonna FAR outgrow him I PROMISE! He’s just not that special.) But you are. 🙂
loj, sometimes someone says something and it makes you cry. I am lovable and yes,I will continue to act to nurture, love and respect myself. Thank you.
Yeah, this is a great post. After ‘dating’ who I now dub “Mr. One Month” (the typical fast-forwarding crap, telling me about all the vacations we can do together THE FIRST DATE, etc), I totally see the things he did. I’ve posted about it in another article. He is STILL trying to contact me three weeks after I flushed. I can’t help but post the things he emailed me in here, after I repeatedly emailed him detail upon detail of what I was feeling. I emailed him these things because I knew I wouldn’t get anywhere verbally:
“Ok Kathy I quit… I’m done trying to work things out. It was never meant to be.
But I am asking myself now what can I learn from this. Perhaps you can help me.
I had a few beers with a friend last night and she was able to shine some light on it for me. You see I do not think we moved to fast, not for me, not this time. I know you said we did but I just don’t buy that..Sorry. Here’s what I think happened. You see I have a strong libido and like I said I need someone who is passionate and has a fire for sex and life like I do. I should have realized that that was not the case here sooner. I said to myself that perhaps things would grow into fire, It is clear now that that was never to be. Hind sight is always 20/20 as they say. I think we think very differently and that’s ok. I am very outgoing and love to met new people and explore all the passions of life. You are far more of an introvert, your words. Perhaps you have been hurt, I am sorry if that’s the case. Maybe there is another guy in your life??
Also I think we really stumbled on communication, probably my fault here.
As far as future relationships what advise can you give me? Feel free to be blunt and as honest as possible. I can take it.
I do hope that we can still be friends. Just Friends. I would like to hang out sometime with you and your friends. Perhaps you would like to meet some more of my friends. But as far as hanging out just the two of us probably not such a good idea.
Hope we can run into each other from time to time hiking or kayaking.
Best wishes and I hope you don’t take this as mean or anything negative.
I leave with only good memories and a smile.”
My response: “I believe in taking things slow and getting to know someone, way before jumping into bed with them, rolling around on the couch with them and having them compliment my breasts, after only two dates. Yes, I went into your house, invited you into mine, and willingly messed around. I got caught up in the moment and take full responsibility for that. I am not blaming you for my lack of judgement. I understand your ‘a guy’, but there are some women out there who don’t appreciate someone they barely know attempting to rush into something after one month. Yes, I’m an introvert and yes I’ve been hurt, that is life. Everyone has. But it hasn’t kept me from living a life full of passion and getting to know people. I have lots of people in my life, from all walks of life. Being introverted does not mean being anti-social or someone who shuns human contact. Extroverted people get their energy from other people and social situations, introverted people get theirs from within, they need to recharge their batteries in occasional solitude. It does not mean introverts are hermits. This is what I mean by needing to take things slow and getting to know someone.
You told me that I was the one who needed to put on the brakes. That’s what I did. Because it’s what I believe in doing. I simply believe that sex is a sacred thing between two people, two people who know each other well and love each other, it’s not an act to be taken lightly or casually. Telling me the first night you were over at my place that you were going to get some condoms to put in my bathroom for when “I’m ready” is not the way into my heart. Maybe for some women it is. It seems that no, it was never meant to be and that we simply have different values. As far as I’m concerned, we moved too fast. At the party you specifically told me you wanted casual, taking things slow and having fun, seeing where it goes. I was fine with that. Then barely two weeks go by, we’d been on only two dates and had barley seen each other, and you were telling me you had feelings for me. How is that possible? For me, feelings like this take a long time to grow. It doesn’t happen overnight. Two people need to get to know one another before these feelings blossom, if they do at all. We didn’t know anything about each other. It goes beyond the physical, at least it does for me. But, like I said, not all women are like me. You need to find someone that matches your values. I don’t.
I wish you well in your search, and I do still want to be friends. You are a great guy, for the right girl. I’m sure we’ll run into each other somewhere.”
His response: “Hey I am sorry. I did not mean that you were not social and frigid. I know you are very active and social. I know you wanted to take things slow. I just thought we were father along then just having a couple dates (WHAT THE FRICKEN WHAT???). It felt like you just slammed on the brakes and came to a screacing halt just has we were getting up to speed (ONE MONTH IS NOT UP TO SPEED!!!). It hurt. I also believe sex is sacred (YA DIDN’T PROVE IT VERY WELL!!!) and I did not mean for you to feel presseured into anything. I did not expect sex Friday. After not talking all week then briefly talking Thurs and your email saying you wanted to be single it felt like you did not want anything to do with me at all. I still not really sure what you want to be honest.
I would like to take back what I said about us not hanging out together just the two us, that was stupid. I would still like to go on a hike or go kayaking sometime. That is if you think you can keep your hands off of me 🙂 JK (indication of ASSHOLE right here!!!!)
And I still would like to take you for a ride on the bike.
Please call me sometime! I hate this email crap. 🙂
Tim
My response: “”I wish you well in your search, and I do still want to be friends. You are a great guy, for the right girl.” This is honest. I want to you continue looking for someone. I want to be single. I just don’t want to date.
I apologize for hurting you, that was not my intention.”
His reaction: “Ok that’s cool. But let me ask you When you say you want to be friends do you mean that you want to be friends and do things like hike kayak together. Or just friendly when we run into each other. I still would like to go hiking sometime.”
And again: “Kathy, I just want to say that I am truely very sorry if I have said anything lately to offend you. I am sorry that things went the way they did.
I just wish we could talk and be friends. Your friendship means alot to me and I hate the idea of not talking to you or seeing you around. I am not trying to rekindle anything, I feel that you have become a close friend in the last month and I feel like I am losing that as well. I am not going to be one of these weird stocker guys so if you just want me to leave you alone just tell me.”
**Insert smiley face text message here a couple of days after the above email was sent. Then a voice mail.
*Facebook post today: “based on your post I am very sorry if I did not seem to respect your feelings. I never ment to hurt you I was just hurt myself. Wish we could have talked more about our feelings before it became to late. I still would like to be friends and talk some. Thats is all I am asking for is your friendship.
Very truely sorry Kathy”
I simply do not trust this. Maybe I’m being avoidant, but the whole thing makes me uncomfortable. As soon as I would make contact with him out of ‘friendship’ he would start in about ‘talking’ about us’ and all that, I just know it.
Why is it so damn hard to find a guy who wants to court a woman properly, get to know her properly, and just be a decent human being with her?? Sheezuz! The two AC experiences I’ve had within this last year have opened my eyes to my past relationships, and they’ve all be of the fast forwarding persuasion. They’ve also opened my eyes to the fact that in each one I had busted my boundaries. But…with the right guy I wouldn’t have to worry about it because he would be adult enough to LISTEN to me when I spell it out. Or, perhaps I just live in a fantasy world. LOL
Kathy
stop! You barely know the guy. You don,t owe him any explanations, relationship advice, emails or friendship.
If you really must respond simply say, Tim, thank you for your time and efforts but after some thought I believe it,s best we both move on. best. kathy.
Then ignore, ignore, ignore. In a month,s time he will be fastforwarding someone else and you,ll forget this ever happened. Just ignore his fb as I feel blocking him is only going to make him worse.
It is hard to find a guy but you make it harder when you burn up time and energy on this stuff. Free your mind and your heart, shoot high and you,ll be surprised at what can happen.
Hey Grace,
Ohhhhh don’t worry. I’ve not made ANY contact whatsoever, ain’t neva gonna, eitha! He is a mass of contradictions, IMO. He just wants to be friends yet he still wants to take me for a ride on his motorcycle?? Puleeeeeeze!!! LOL This is why I don’t trust his @ss.
HUGS to you!
This is where we get tripped up. They exploit and manipulate in conversation as if we OWE THEM an explanation for accusations that are NEGATIVE. A MONTH?
Listen, FLUSH. You don’t owe him ANY explanations AT ALL. There is A LOT of disrespect of you out of this man. THAT is INTOLERABLE and doesn’t require a verbal resume out of you at all. FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH!
I’ll leave the following article for you to read from my blog. I hope it helps.
Kathy
It made my head hurt reading all that.
It’s like when my kids ask for something which isn’t possible, explain once, nicely, and then end of conversation, do not engage further. While you are still explaining, justifying, and debating, in their mind the door is still open, so they will just keep on nagging. It’s boring. He wants a shag, or the opportunity to hang around till you give in, or to meet your friends, because they might be more amenable.
Kathy…
Step away from the A/C! Don’t respond to text messages, emails, Facebook comments or messages, voice mails, letters delivered by Pony Express, smoke signals, telepathic messages…
You get the drift. You don’t owe him an explanation. By even responding to him, YOU are maintaining and furthering the contact. These people like attention. It doesn’t matter if it’s positive OR negative. As long as you’re even “talking” to them, they think a) you still want them and b) they have a way in to manipulate and further THEIR agenda.
FLUSH, DELETE, FLUSH, DELETE. In other words, IGNORE HIM. Who gives a flying fig if he writes these long, “heart-felt” missives. They are verbal diarrhea designed to create a fog so you get so confused he can persuade you to do what HE wants.
You’ve told him how many times now it was moving too fast and you don’t want to see him? This is what? His third or fourth attempt to “persuade” you that you do not know your own mind, feelings, preferences, boundaries. Because you’re introverted and have been hurt. What a condescending, arrogant, CREEP!!! I could go on, but you get the gist.
SILENCE in times like these is your armor, your shield and your protector. Use it like the kick-ass warrior you are.
I’m not sure I see where this guy was an assclown? He tried for sex you shot him down and then dumped him. He was hurt and tried talking to you about it. What am I missing here?
freya
he’s not taking no for an answer. I think they only saw each other for a month. It’s not a relationship, I wouldn’t even call it a break up.
And, yes, I would say the same if a woman was chasing an explanation and friendship from a man she’d been seeing for a month who turned out not to be interested.
kathy did explain. he didn’t accept the explanation. She tried again. at some point we all have to grasp that an explanation that we find acceptable may not be forthcoming.
I might not tip this guy into the assclown dump just yet, but he’s heading that way.
I am wondering, can/does this stuff relate to women as well? Because I have found myself in a situation where I am hurting and trying to get over a woman, to the point I am looking for tips on here and anywhere else I can find them… and so much of this stuff rings true about our relationhip.
I will try to keep it as brief as I can, but I met someone about 11 months ago now. We worked together and sat next to eachother in a meeting every morning for about 5 months prior to that. I was with someone else at the time, and was having trouble in that relationship and broke it off in February and me and this woman got together shortly after. We were friends already, and it just felt natural and honestly fantastic. I really wanted to take my time in this new relationship, because I really liked her and I had gone really fast in most of my other relationships and they obviously hadn’t worked out thus far. This time was different, she pushed the fast forward button. We had sex after our second real date (seen eachother about 4 times), she introduced me to her kids almost immediately, wanted me to come by her house every day, etc. By the summer we were taking the kids on weekend trips, having dinner at her parents house, went on a family weekend to their cabin – it was a whirlwind and I was so nervous, but she kept telling me I was the love of her life and we were going to be together always. She wanted me to break my lease and move in with her the next February, and we were planning a life together. I kept going and kept planning on being together, I was in love with her by this time even though I was unsure about what was going to happen, but she was so adamant and I have honestly made relationships work which much less.
We had a major issue over the summer during the weekend away with her parents and sister – I was out of line and defended her to her mom for constantly putting her down and making her miserable and I shouldn’t have… I just love her and she didn’t deserve to be treated with so much disrespect and disdain even by her mom. I was respectful, but told her mom she needed to respect her more because she wasn’t trying to upset her or do things that bothered her on purpose, then her mom started bad mouthing her to me and I just let it go. She gave me the bird behind my back and my girlfriend was coming up the stairs right then and saw it. She started crying her eyes out, grabbed up the kids and I, and we left. She cried the whole trip home – I felt so terrible. After we got back things were different – we were still together all the time and talked a lot about what happened and how she needed to change her relationship with her mom – but she wasn’t as close to me and I felt it. She was depressed, and when I would try to hold her or be close to her sometimes she would nicely push me away. Her sex drive dried up and she started having irregular periods, and we didn’t do as much together anymore. She begged me to please stay with her as she worked through it all, and I promised her I would never leave her.
We got into a little tiff after Labor day at her friends house… we were with her friend for the last 4 days because she was going through some man drama and needed her girlfriend, and my girlfriend dragged me with and honestly I was a little irritated because I asked her that morning if we could just spend the day together with just us and the kids – I was missing her a lot because even when I did see her she wasn’t herself anymore. I went, and was being ignored and getting more upset, and she finally asked me what was wrong and I asked her why she invited me there in the first place – and she got upset and we went home. I dropped her and the kids off and went back to my place, and she texted me and told me she needed some time apart. I freaked out a little bit, not knowing what happened and figured it was because of the little thing we just had, but she asked for time and I gave it to her. She texted me a little more and said she didn’t know what was wrong and why she was feeling this way and was crying so much, and I asked her if she wanted me to come and get my things and we could just go our separate ways so she could feel more in control. She said she didn’t want that at all and we could get together Tuesday and talk it out. Saturday before then she texted me again and said she was missing me so much and wanted to know if I wanted to just come by and watch a movie with her and no drama – I said yes. She asked if we could just go back to dating and not talk about moving in or being a family anymore and I said we could talk about it on Tuesday but maybe we could. I loved her so much by now and didn’t want to let her down. I went home on Saturday and we met Tues.
She said she didn’t know what was going on but she was freaking out, but she loved me more than she has ever loved anyone and didn’t want to lose me. She asked me again if we could just go back to dating, and I asked her what would happen if I said yes and we ended up getting closer again down the road? Would she push me away again? And she thought for a minute and then said no, and I agreed to go back to dating. She again asked me to promise to stay with her through this, and again I told her I would never leave.
From that night forward she cut me out of her life, slowly but surely stopped texting, calling, emailing, only invited me over once in awhile and not the nights she didn’t have her kids so we could have alone time… stopped saying she loved me except sporadically. After two weeks of this I was hurting so bad I had to say something. I IM’d her at work and asked if I could meet her at home so we could talk, and she said she was busy but we would see eachother Saturday… I told her ok and she asked me what was wrong – so I spilled it all. I told her that I thought seeing less of eachother didn’t mean she wanted all of the other aspects of our relationship to go away, and I told her I needed more than what we had now and that she told me she wanted all that still too. She admitted to me she was “shutting down” on me but said she wasn’t doing it on purpose and she needed some time to get her thoughts together. The next morning I asked her if she figured out anything else and she said she just couldn’t do it anymore. She said she loved me so much but wasn’t where she felt she needed to be to have a relationship anymore. She said several times that maybe someday we can try again if she can get herself back together and get her confidence back. We still saw eachother that Saturday and had one last talk, just small talk she didn’t want to talk about us anymore I guess. I got my things from her place and she gave me some money back to repay me for some things I helped her with and that was it. I kept hanging on though, trying to be a friend like she asked me to always be, and because I kept thinking she just needed to clear her head and get it back together like she also told me. I gave her space for the most part, but every now and then would try to say hi to her or send her a text or email asking her how she was doing and kind of reminding her more or less that I still loved her and wasn’t going anywhere as long as she felt there was a chance for us sometime – bad mistake on my part I know.
A month went by like this, and I started seeing pictures of her on facebook going out, smiling, having a good time, and I was sitting at home miserable and wondering if she was sorting things out still or still thinking about getting back with me, and then on Halloween I saw a pic of her with a guy standing right next to her and it hurt me badly. I called her that Sunday to ask if she wanted to try again and maybe do something different since space was the issue as far as I knew, she never answered my call but we texted some later that day. Again, she said it was over, but said she still cares a lot about me and will always love me and I will always have a piece of her heart – but “right now I am just not where I need to be.” I asked her if she felt she would ever want to try again still or if she knew we were over for good, but no reply.. I gave up. A week or so later (November 11) I saw another picture of her on her friends facebook page with this same guy standing behind her in a group photo, his hand on the side of her face this time and her smiling so big. I freaked out and texted her at 4 am and asked her if she was seeing someone else, and then texted her friend whrn I got no reply (mistake number two lol sigh). Her friend told me she was dating again but didn’t want anything serious. And when she woke up she texted me back and told me very pissed off that she wasn’t seeing anyone else and where did I get that info from – was I stalking her, following her, etc etc. But I asked her just to please tell me if she was then she would never hear from me again, because that would mean everything I kept hanging on for wasn’t true and it wasn’t what I thought it was. I tried to explain to her how hard it was for me to let go after promising I would always stay with her and her saying she just needed time. I said I wasn’t able to let go, but if she has moved on then it wasn’t fair to her or me to keep lingering.
She never admitted she was seeing anyone else, but told me she just wanted to have fun and not be involved in anything serious, and that she has moved on and shes sorry Im hurting but to please move on too. Good enough for me. I said ok, sorry, Goodbye I love you…. That was 10 days ago now. I am going through hell trying to let her go and cant seem to get her out of my head. I had a date last weekend and the lady was so nice and we had a really great time, but I went home and felt horrible and I am afraid meeting new people isn’t ever going to help with this pain. I try to stay busy but its hard and I wake up at 2am and think about her until 5am every day. I know its over, I will never talk to her again now and I know I need to move on… why is it so hard? What the hell happened? I have so many scenarios of what went wrong in my head but I just don’t know. Was I just fooled from square one? Maybe our age difference (Im 40 shes 32) I just don’t know L
Sorry, wow that got long… any comments are welcome, I don’t care what they are.
Sorry about your pain. This blog also applies for women.
Keep reading this blog. Apply no contact rule. It is hard but that will help you get over her.
It read exactly like the “Fast Forward and Faking Relationship” and I was dumbfounded… but I really in my heart don’t think she was being dishonest with her feelings, at least not until the very end before she finally said goodbye. And according to her friends I am the first person she has ever been this far with since her divorce – “you took her to a place shes never been too before.” Her best friend told me she just doesn’t ever love deep, and freaks out and runs fast and easy… I just Im just awestruck that nothing was real :(. Is she really the female version of one of these people, or was she really just being sincere and she changed her mind for whatever reason or stress in her life? I will never contact her again though I promise that… it hurt pretty bad that shes been telling me for a month she cant be in a relationship right now but has no problem seeing other guys apparently – at least be straight with me and tell me its just me. I don’t hate her, still love her obviously and miss her like hell.. but I’m going to leave me heart with someone who doesn’t deserve it. I just want it to go away…
bob, assclowns can be both male and female. i’m sorry you’re going through this. keep reading here, get nat’s ebooks and get better. keep working at it and you will. if i can do it, anybody can. honestly, this site has been invaluable in my recovery from EUM/assclownitis and i’m well on my way, feeling stronger every day.
Bob
Yes it all applies to both genders. The only difference is that women are less likely to use men for sex, in my opinion, but even that happens.
Same remedy – get off facebook, No contact, don,t put yourself in the position where she can mess you around. Don,t date until you,re over it. And stop blaming yourself. It,s seldom ONE thing that dooms a relationship, it,s a pattern of crap. and you can’t commit to a relationship on your own. Well, you can try but it,s all for nothing if the other side is half hearted.
And an eight year age difference is nothing.
Yes it hurts and that,s normal. It takes time to heal but do something useful with that time. We all thought we would never got over him and funnily enough we did, or we are or we will.
Beware the fast forward. Mature and ready people still get the rush but we know to hold our horses and let the relationship develop steadily.
Thanks so much for the kind replies, they do help alot.. today seems extra hard and Im not sure why. Thanks.
Yeah facebook messed me up bad, and I made an ass of myself honestly and am still regretting it and ashamed – it led to both my call trying to reconcile or change the terms and then our last text blow up 10 days ago. I removed all her friends from my facebook page that day, and she removed and blocked me from hers as well before I got to it so I wont have that trigger again. I also started sending someone else to my meeting with her in the morning. I feel a little ashamed, like I am too cowardly to face her every day… but everytime I went in there and tried to be friendly and smile and say hi and compliment her outfit or something and was just met with cold replies where we once shared a smile or loving gaze; it just was too hard to take. I know she doesn’t care anymore, and words are just words and its obvious alot of them weren’t meant, I find it unfair that I still care and still have her in my heart.
I know I will get over her somehow, after all I have no choice. This one just hurt bad because I didn’t see it coming and she talked me into believing it was so real. Like alot of these articles say, its a waste of time wondering what happened or why, because she sure as hell isnt asking herself any of those questions. She just told me she was… and went back to what she did before she met me I guess.
It irks me too that in all the last day discussion of loving me and maybe revisiting us when she gets it together, she said she wanted me to always be her friend, and I told her I would but I wouldnt be able to talk to her for awhile because it would hurt too much. So why can she not even give me a warm hello when I quietly say hi to her in the meeting? I know… it doesnt matter, just another things that swims through my head… like it as all bs to soften the blow to me or make her feel less guilty about sucking me in and then hurling me to the wind.
May I give some unambiguous feedback.
Getting attention hits through flirting (having fun with, which I would add, could be misinterpreted by them as leading them on) men ought not be mistaken for rebuilding a healthy sense of self esteem.
Men indeed ARE interested primarily in sex, as this is an instinctual biological drive within them, to ensure their genes carry in bloodlines down through evolution. Their dick’s ARE literally telling them, wow, ‘hot chick, must have’ at every turn! For you not to realise this is incredibly niave (even though most don’t act on it. Notice those most likely to though. Usually very good looking, charming etc. Why? It’s been bred to be more likely in ppl with these charactaristics genetically through a type of ‘natural selection’ process!)
Women on the other hand are driven biologically primarily to NEST, that is to settle down with one partner in a monogamous relationship, in order to give children the best possible chance of survival & thereby carry THEIR genes down through evolution.
This is a very basic explanation, however, speaking in generalities, are simple fact.
Freya I don’t have too much of a problem with anything I’ve read of yours, but I am wondering: if your way of doing things works so well, (sorry if perhaps I’ve missed something?) then why are you here at BR?
Also, this is just a hunch, but in time, you might want to unpack some of your beliefs a little deeper, with a therapist perhaps (not sure if you’re already doing this). I only mention this as your background means that your entire value system with regards to intimate relationships has been totally inverted, corrupted & distorted. Healing from that (or recognising it even) as opposed to defendimg it & the men who represented your source of income, can take many years of intensive work & therapy to heal. I know,of women who healed from such things though so it can be done. One is now married, works as a qualified high school drama teacher & does comedy gigs on the weekends. Very funny lady & very successful. Ex stripper & prostitute to boot! So there! 🙂
I offer my feedback in kindness not judgement. I think you’ve still got a long way to go though (hey, haven’t we all)?! I wish you well on yr journey. T x
There is nothing to heal from. I don’t need therapy. It was always a personal choice. My values are not corrupted or turned upside down. What part of my values that I have expressed seem unreasonable or corrupted? By telling people they should do something fun when they feel low am I being somehow out of the ordinary?
I think my experiences make me the person I am. I have no guilt over these things. I’m sorry the lifestyle I chose to lead offends your sensibilities. Its exactly this reason I tend to keep it quiet. People immediately begin making judgments about how to treat me or who I must be because of these things. They often try to convince me that I am a victim and need to get help to get over it.
I, like your friend, live a good life. I own a successful business, have deep bonds with friends and family. I’m a regular person. I wonder why there is an assumption that my past has adversely effected me? Is it possible that it has given me strength and perspective?
I keep thinking of Lisbeth from Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. I always liked this character, one because I too have a dragon tattoo, and two because she refuses to be a victim. I’ve only read the first book but I recall she constantly finds herself in situations where most people would break down and become a victim; a blubbering mess on the floor screaming at the universe WHY ME? Instead, she takes whatever control she has over her situation and uses it. She repeats to herself Lisbeth Salander is NOT a victim. I too repeat to myself I am NOT a victim.
“Women on the other hand are driven biologically primarily to NEST, that is to settle down with one partner in a monogamous relationship, in order to give children the best possible chance of survival & thereby carry THEIR genes down through evolution.”
This is not true in the slightest. From an evolutionary perspective (the theories that you are attempting to explain in your post) both males and females will seek multiple partners. The male, in competition with other males, hoping to impregnate a female and pass on his genes. And females do so in hopes of getting the best genes possible for her off spring.
Bob,
Wow. Most of the survivors of personality disordered or otherwise toxic individuals are women, although I’ve worked with a few men. It’s rare, but it happens.
You’re just out of this, so there is this process called “cognitive dissonance” the “she’s good/she’s bad” conflicted feeling. As I read, a few things struck me. First of all, this woman was NOT what you thought she was. Or perhaps what you wanted her to be. Secondly when you go from one relationship to the next, without a breather, and I mean a LOOOOONG breather in between to look at your OWN issues, you are asking for trouble, albeit in fact inviting it. It’s just dragging your baggage into something that appears novel, yet the same dysfunctions play out. Perhaps in this case, the rejection and perceived abandonment are familiar?
Dating after this is not a healthy sign of “moving on” and is not what is meant for YOU to become a healthier man that doesn’t choose this type of woman.
Take some down time. SERIOUS down time and look at yourself. Deal with the rejection and the feelings that you are dealing with. There is “stuff” that underlies all of this and it’s self esteem related. Her actions and behaviors had nothing to do with you. It’s her, however your having jumped in feet first and being taken in on fast forward didn’t allow time for a relationship to be built in the first place. A true healthy relationship is not built on love bombing fantasy. Something is wrong when someone can attach to you fast because it means they will detach just as quickly, but there is also something amiss within you that creates a dependence in such a short time. Most people do not go into these relationshits without a vulnerability or as healthy people. These people target you for a reason. YOUR job is to find out WHAT that reason is. Dating right now or getting into another relationship right away seems a bit of repetition compulsion on your part.
Being alone isn’t a bad thing. Perhaps you have the opportunity to be one of those healthy men that DOES take the time to become healthier and to fix your picker! If you are capable of love, and of care, you’re a GEM. I know too many men who are not these days. Some day, some woman is going to be REALLY lucky to have you in her life, but you need to fix you first before that can happen. We can’t choose healthy if we are not.
While you hurt like hell (I know..), it makes it worse when you amp it up by looking at her face book, text her or whatever. CLEARLY this woman is not about truth right now. When we “freak out” after having been duped, we run the danger of looking like a stalker psycho, even if we are not.
Part of letting her go means just that.
Challenge yourself to go completely no contact with her, this means even INDIRECT of any sort.
Secondly, swear off dating for awhile. A LONG while to get yourself together. Therapy might even be good in helping you to figure out how you got sucked into this, or rather why you chose it. If you don’t fix it, you’ll keep repeating the lessons until you learn them.
Best wishes.
Thanks soooo much K, I know you are right about everything you wrote.
She wasn’t what I wanted her to be, honestly if I stop playing games with myself I knew early on that we weren’t a good fit and I was nervous about so many things… she was clearly worried about her agenda and life so much more than mine. She used words so much more than actions to let me know how she really felt about me – I honestly started to feel like I was just a cog she was trying to fit into her life so she could take on the appearance of being a “settled down” family oriented person to please others she was trying to please (parents, etc). Yes, in the beginning it was absolutely amazing and I fell in love with the idea of it all (I tend to do that, but have been trying to change)… but to me her true self came out after we spent that weekend with her parents and her mom wasnt accepting of her any more with me than she was without me. Her mom even went so far as to tell her that she was just with me so I could play dad to her kids, and told her her kids were going to hate her for it… her mom is just a bitter, mean, person and she breaks down my ex sooo badly :(.
I have issues too, you are so right. I didnt jump in this time but was led in much too easily and let her grow to be part of my life as fast as she wanted me to be… but whereas I dont give up and let go of anything easy, especially once my heart is in it, she let go just as quick as she latched on and now I have to go through the painful process of disconnecting myself from her… I dont understand how love and caring can just vanish and turn into indifference so fast, its beyond me… but I know it probably wasnt real – it was to her Im sure but wasnt really what I thought it was.
I know I have something self esteem related that makes me do this… I have been to alot of counseling and therapy awhile back when I was looking at my past relationships and wanted to see if there was something I could do better. All they really ever told me was that I was pretty well adjusted for the things I have been through in my life, but I do attach quickly and when I face rejection it is always double rejection because of not growing up with a mom. I know I need to find a way to cope with things better, but at least I have done a good job of keeping my boundaries (even though they are pretty damn far back in the sand lol sigh). She is the first one I ever actually told that things werent going to work for me like they were. I told her I needed to be able to feel close and loved consistently by the person I am with – I know myself enough to know that I need that in my life. I even offered to break up first as much as it hurt, because I saw the writing on the wall and I knew deep down I didnt feel good about our relationship.. but as you read I backed down and agreed to go back to dating instead, and then within 2 weeks she turned the tables on me. I rationalized her new behavior that she was still messed up about what happened at her parents a couple months before and this was not who she really was.. I kept telling myself she was the person I met back in January/February and this person was someone who needed help getting back there and finding herself again. Thats why I decided to keep going and promised her I wouldnt leave… I think now though I was wrong and the person now is who she really is. She doesnt even care anymore only a month or so later… just lip service and shes sorry but shes moved on. If it was real that could not happen I am sure. I guess I should just tell myself it was a fun ride while it lasted and was good while it was good, it felt so good to feel like I was the center of her whole world, and I loved her and her kids so much… and now I have to say thats all it was was a fantasy, a ride, and she is on to her next whirlwind and “having fun” and I am left to pick up the pieces and you are right, try to fix what is wrong with me that lets me get so attached to “too good to be true” and needing to always have someone else in my life to make me feel good about myself.. any tips on that would be most welcome!! I know I am a pretty decent guy and I have alot of good qualities… its just something deeper that I need to get in touch with I guess so I dont get my heart ripped out like this ever again. But at least I learned no more quick relationships, ever.
I am dating now, and youre right maybe its a bad idea.. but I get so lonely here alone and honestly get so down thinking about her that I just need to get out of the house and be around people. I havent tried to jump into anything – but you are right with my heart like this I am probably just leading people on who are ready for something more than dinner and a drink and a good conversation and sharing a smile. I think maybe I am just mad because I see shes out having a great time and I am not… hey I can do that too sort of thing. But its not like thats paying her back or anything lol, she doesnt even care or is concerned with me in the slightest, except how she looks in all of this to others. I guess she was honest with me though so I cant fault her for that – it was over in her head and she told me it was over.. just wish she wouldve left all the crap out about always loving me and the maybes and the just need time alone for right now.. that was all bs. I dont think she can be alone honestly.. she at least needs someone to make her feel good about herself, hence her “having fun and not being involved in anything serious.”
Sorry, rambling now. I will never contact her again on my own you have my word, and I have cut all the indirect crap too and will stick with it.. I know its like sticking my hand in the deep fryer. And she did accuse me of stalking her, following her, etc etc, until i finally told her I saw a pic on my newsfeed from her friends page.. and then she said she felt “violated” because I went to her friend and was accusing her of seeing other people.. I will give her that and like I said I should not have done it. She didnt have to lie to me though, and still hold it to the bitter end. She says shes not seeing anyone, but then asks me if I am following her? C’mon, if you are so worried about it then you must be seeing other people and just didnt want to look bad to others. I was in the wrong though, and it set me back alot more.. now its only been 11 days since Ive cut contact and not another week like it was before I saw that picture.
I think I will go back to see my therapist again, just to be able to help work through this… and will try my best to get over her and move on, better than before. The sad thing is I know if she called me today I would be back with her, and I know full well it wouldnt work then either, because nothing has changed :(. She wont call though so I dont have to worry… shes dropped me as fast as she pulled me in, and just as completely.
Thanks sooo much K, it all rings very true..
Bob72:
First, welcome to BR. I’m very sorry for what brought you here. You’ll find a lot of support, genuine understanding and empathy, and help with healing from this debacle you’ve just experienced.
Second, you’ve asked for “tips” and seem to be begging for answers. You also are in the beginning stages of this grieving process and I see a lot of romanticizing of this relationship and of her.
SPOILER ALERT: I am going to give you the straight dope. It WILL come off as very harsh and you may feel beat up. Please know I am not trying to attack you, or hurt you or in any way add to your pain. I’m telling it to you straight, because I wish someone had told ME the real deal with these types of relationships. It may have saved me years of repeating the dysfunctional cycle and trying to destroy myself.
That said, if you’re still reading, here goes:
1) “She wasn’t what I wanted her to be, honestly if I stop playing games with myself I knew early on that we weren’t a good fit and I was nervous about so many things…”
Lesson #1: You are aware that YOU ignored the red flags she was throwing up. LISTEN to your gut…always! I don’t know a single soul who listened, really listened, to their gut and lived to regret it. If it helps, I like to think of my “gut,” my “intuition” as God (it could be the universe, your most cherished true friend, whatever you want to call it)whispering in my ear. It’s God telling me, trust yourself La Pintura, YOU know something is rotten here. In other words…Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!!!!
The point is, when we DON’T listen to and trust ourselves, we get into loads of trouble that hurts like hell and makes everything even worse!
2) “Yes, in the beginning it was absolutely amazing and I fell in love with the idea of it all (I tend to do that, but have been trying to change)… but to me her true self came out after we spent that weekend with her parents and her mom wasnt accepting of her any more with me than she was without me.”
OK, the important thing here is you Identified that you are truly susceptible to fantasy and fairy tale thinking. YOU prefer illusion to reality. It’s REALLY time to change that because it is a TRAP. This makes you emotionally unavailable as well. And it leads to victim thinking.
How to stop this…talk to your therapist and read Natalie’s articles. ALL OF THEM. They explain the dynamics in a clear, concise, easy to “get” way. They offer concrete, common sense advice on HOW to change these things. More so than any therapy ever provided me. Therapy, for me, was great for digging out all of the core issues I was lugging around and needlessly clinging to in order to avoid my life. But it really fell short in teaching me HOW to change these patterns and dynamics and stinking thinking. BR give you the HOW!
3) “I didnt jump in this time but was led in much too easily and let her grow to be part of my life as fast as she wanted me to be…”
Um, yes, YOU DID jump in! YOU volunteered! We all, everyone using this site, did. By saying SHE led you, you are playing the victim; putting ALL of the blame on her and NOT taking responsibility for YOUR actions. That is Lesson #2: To be authentic, you’ve got to walk your walk and talk your talk. Stop hiding from yourself, own your stuff. The good, the bad AND the ugly.
4)”I dont understand how love and caring can just vanish and turn into indifference so fast, its beyond me…”
Because it was neither love nor caring! By calling it love and caring, you’re giving her way too much credit.
This is going to hurt: the truth of the matter is, she used you. She didn’t love you and she didn’t care. Not because YOU aren’t worthy or deserving of it, but because SHE is totally, completely, absolutely incapable of either loving or caring about ANYONE!!! This is probably the hardest part to wrap your head around.
It has NOTHING to do with YOU. It DOESN’T define YOUR value, your worth, your lovability. It SAYS EVERYTHING about her. I don’t care if she’s been horribly hurt, damaged or is mentally and emotionally disordered. There are tons of people with those problems who still manage to be kind, loving and caring and do not run around using people. The truth is, she knows exactly what she is doing. She CHOOSES to do it. Because frankly, she’s a callous, user. A cruel, taker. In short, not worthy of you!
5) “I do attach quickly and when I face rejection it is always double rejection because of not growing up with a mom.”
Good news!!! You’ve identified YOUR core issue. The thing inside that YOU need to make peace with, accept and deal with, heal so YOU stop replaying this hurt out in your romantic relationships. You do realize that YOU ARE re-creating this original hurt by picking the people you pick, don’t you?
HOW do you stop this? Awareness is the first step and you’ve done that. READ, READ, READ. Start seeing your therapist again. Tell your therapist you need concrete instructions on how to break this cycle, how to come to acceptance, how to build your self-esteem and how to change the beliefs you hold about love, worthiness, abandonment, etc.
Journal. Write down your feelings, all of them. Get brutally honest with yourself about what beliefs you carry are really false and which ones do accurately reflect who you are and who you want to be. Write down your values, you’ll need this for the future. Stop playing games with yourself. Stop avoiding yourself and your problems by looking to outside sources to make you feel loved and worthy. YOU have to give it to yourself. Become your own best friend…not your own wost enemy. Own your actions, own your good and your bad. Nurture yourself. Look inside to fill the hole in your heart and the empty place in your soul that misses your mother. Forgive her and forgive yourself.
It’s not easy. In fact it’s damn hard and sometimes sickeningly so. But it is WORTH IT, because YOU are WORTH IT.
6)Stop blaming her parents and what happened when you guys were at their house. THAT dynamic has been going on long before you came along and will most likely continue until they all die. This is where she learned her helplessness and manipulation techniques. This is HERS to deal with, if SHE chooses to do so.
You are also trying to control and play rescuer to the damsel in distress. It’s frankly, none of your business. How about leaving her to mind her crap and you rescue yourself instead??? If you do that, you won’t need people like this to focus on and rescue, because YOU’LL be healthy, with a great, amazing, healthy woman and actually LIVING a beautiful, fulfilling life. You will no longer be slogging through chaos and drama because it makes you “seem” to be living. Hmm, which one will you choose?
7) “I guess I should just tell myself it was a fun ride while it lasted and was good while it was good…”
How about you DON’T tell yourself that? How about you quit avoiding yourself instead and look at this for what it REALLY IS…A HUGE GIFT AND THE OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE?
These relationships continue to repeat over and over and over again until WE get the message. It’s ME…I need to wake up and deal with REALITY! Stop focusing on her. OK, yeah, she’s royally messed up, is not a very nice person and screwed you over to satisfy her own hidden agenda. WHO THE F CARES??? Let her be. Walk away from the Assclownette and let her deal with her own sorry self. YOU CAN’T FIX HER! YOU CAN ONLY FIX YOURSELF.
YOUR JOB, is to deal with YOU! This happened because YOU needed it to happen. This is YOUR chance, Bob. Take it, with both hands. Give yourself the gift of healing and being truly happy!!!! To do that, you need to FOCUS on YOURSELF. She’s history. Wish her well and be done with it. When you get healthy, you’ll wonder what the hell you ever saw in her anyway.
8)”I am dating now, and youre right maybe its a bad idea.. but I get so lonely here alone and honestly get so down thinking about her that I just need to get out of the house and be around people.”
Maybe it’s a bad idea??? YOU THINK??? It’s a disaster in the making. A) It’s leading on some unsuspecting woman who thinks she’s on a real date with the possibility of a relationship somewhere down the road. That’s really no different than what your ex did to you.
B) You’re avoiding your pain, you’re avoiding looking at yourself and you’re avoiding dealing with the reality that YOU have some major work and healing to do.
If you’re lonely, go out with friends…and not to pick up on women. Go to the movies, go hiking, whatever floats your boat. But DO NOT date until you have dealt with yourself. It’s not fair to you or the women.
9) “The sad thing is I know if she called me today I would be back with her, and I know full well it wouldnt work then either, because nothing has changed…”
Go No contact. There is an article here about how to do it and why. Think of it as your retreat, you’re safe place to go so you can grieve this without ripping the scab off of the wounds if you do talk to her. And be prepared, she might very well contact you. These people have a weird need to call or text the ex’s…especially when they sense that you’re getting better and getting over them.
Have I overwhelmed and royally pissed you off yet? I hope you read this…over and over. The main message is…focus on you. Stay here and read everything. Talk with your therapist. Comment on the articles here. Ask questions. We are ALL in the same boat here. Some are just further along than others. The point is: YOU DESERVE A WOMAN WHO IS HEALTHY, AVAILABLE AND ACTUALLY KNOWS WHAT LOVE IS AND IS CAPABLE OF SHARING IT WITH YOU. This woman you wrote about, she’s NOT that. She very likely never will be that. For anyone. Instead of looking at this as a tragedy, be grateful it happened and look at it as the first step towards having the life YOU want, richly deserve and were always destined to have!
Hope I haven’t scared you away. Hugs.
La Pintura Bella,
Okay, I know that comment was directed to Bob, but I just wanted to say: that was freakin’ AWESOME.
I need a cigarette. 😉
Yes, it was awesome and thank you sooo much for the insight. I know I have some major work to do or for some reason I will keep walking around with a flag on my head that tells me and everyone else that its ok to get into these ridiculously lopsided relationships. And believe me I am past the point where I am defending her actions in my head… I know she was completely incapable of the love she proclaimed for me and all of it was only in her head and just as quickly popped out once she got whatever she needed to feel from it. My only issue is battling my heart about the whole affair – part of me still wants to believe she tried her best and just couldnt make it work for reasons outside of her control. I guess thats what makes me still hang on to love for her as well… but I know like I know anything her words and her ideas were all just “future faking” and “fast forwarding” because she was caught up in the moment and liked what she was getting. She is simply too shallow to sustain something like that for very long and I saw it from a mile away.. but thought I could turn the ship around lol sigh. Thats the truth I see now. I shouldve broke up with her the day she told me she needed space and stuck to it instead of backing down because she was crying so much and saying the meaningless words.. she just didnt want to be rejected and wanted it to be her decision on her terms, just like everything else in the relationship looking back.
The morning I was talking to her best friend I told her I felt sorry for her – that she has never really loved someone, to the point of meeting them halfway and laying it all on the line. She talks a good game, quickly, and honestly I no longer believe this is the first time she has done this.. maybe she hasnt brought anyone into her family and around her kids before but I am willing to bet she has come on way too strong and said I love you way too easily to many people before me, and probably after me now too. She told me when we were first together that I felt so different to her.. that she always met a guy, hooked up with him, and then didnt want anything to do with them afterwards. She said I was the only one she ever liked laying next to in my arms and not freaking out when we were close, sleeping on my chest etc… I am thinking where it might be true because we did it for 8 months, I bet she has done or said something to that effect with every guy she has ever been involved with. I do feel sorry for her – and I dont want that. Thats not what I am looking for. I need real.
Reading here has helped me more with my attachment issue and helped me deal with this rejection more than my therapist ever has you are right. My therapist told me what was wrong, but c’mon duh I knew that already just by reading up myself she just gave me the proffessional diagnosis. I have usually healed my heart by diving into a new relationship – not good I know – and have never taken the time to really heal from a hurt because the pain just feels so severe to me. Even this time, I signed up for an online dating site because my head was telling me “its over, she has moved on, you need to get back on that horse and move on too.” I know now its the wrong answer, and I am going to torch some other poor soul in the process if I dont get it together first. I dont want to make anyone ever feel like I do now. I am about even in doing the breaking up and being on the receiving end – I havent had a ton of relationships in my life as I was with the same person from the time I was 19 until I was 30… but when I think back on it all I have never ever given credit for where it is due to a womans bad behavior.. another little epiphany that I need to figure out why I make excuses for everyone – well not everyone just women. And I have ended a couple relationships myself, but made great effort to remain amiable with them and I can say that I am still good friends (just friends, no sexual overtones or anything else) with everyone I have ever had a relationship with, save this last one. I may need to change this dynamic too because that might not be the reality of how things should work.
I have been totally no contact since last monday when we had our little text argument.. I will not ever talk to her again and am not going to snoop around and try to find out what she is up to whatsoever.. I really dont want to know because I know through the last couple weeks it just hurts more every single time – she doesn’t care and I need to stop trying to see if she does. Hopefully if and when she ever tries to look me up again I will be strong and just not answer, or hopefully be more whole of a person and in something truly wonderful and even, and real…
Thanks again, sorry I keep going on and on but I am so glad I came across this place. It is helping, and it keeps me sane when I feel like climbing the walls.
Hugs back.. to all of you
YAY! YAY! YAY! YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think you are on your way to becoming whole and finding the most awesome love of your life…YOU…to be soon followed by a wonderful, amazing, totally kick-ass woman who will be the perfect match for you!
And a HUGE shout out to Natalie who is the Guardian Angel who is helping us all become who we were always meant to be!
Thank you Rev! I think all of my hard work on myself is FINALLY starting to fall into place and is STICKING! I just had to write because I soooo wish I’d been told this stuff myself.
I think I need a cigarette too! LOL
@Bob sounds like you have alot going on. I guess there will be many more men coming out the closet on baggage reclaim. I meant that from being honest and open and sharing some of the same feelings and situations that we women share here. I am sure when women read your comment they are mouth wide opened “thinking” WTH really??
Wow I never knew men were capable of coming to this site. I am sure alot of them have read stories relating to them and some even about themselves. *yikes* Good to know that we are not alone.
thanks again Bella… I am going to give it a HUGE try, and regardless I am going to do things different from now on. Nothing fast and “too easy” ever again, either by me jumping in with both feet trying to make a miracle happen or by being invited in with empty promises and proclamations. If I’ve learned nothing else here at all (which I have learned ALOT more) I’ve learned that kind of relationship isn’t real or sustainable.
Awakened, I hope and wish as many women on here who need it can read my story – at the very least maybe get a guys perspective on what happens through these kinds of things. I need to tell you right up front though that I am by no means perfect and thats the crappy truth – I just didn’t see it until coming here and reading trying to heal my hurt from the tables being turned on me. I have ended a relationship in my life that looking back there was really nothing wrong, just the usual ups and downs, and the woman I was with had real, not fantasy, love for me… but it was I who was “emotionally unavailable”… the sad truth is that there was nothing to save her from and no feeling for me like I had to “prove myself” by moving heaven and earth for them so the feeling inside me died. I see it now, and honestly I just had the same thing done to me. She didn’t actually go to the point I do of really moving heaven and earth, but did so with all her professions of love, wanting to have me around her at all times, integrating me in her life, etc.. once I was all in she either a) freaked out because she had second thoughts or b) proved to herself that she had me (subconsciously or not) and her feelings died, just like mine did before.You have no idea how bad I feel about this now, even with my heart broken for my most previous ex.. and honestly if I didn’t feel so bad about ruining her life I would try to look her back up and make amends. I know she is with someone else now though, and hopefully happy and being treated well, and that is the most I can do. I am not “fixed,” at least not yet, so my destiny lies somewhere else. Like K said, I need to fix my picker first lol, and I also need to stop thinking love is having to prove myself to an emotionally shallow or unavailable woman – I get validation from this and I guess deep down it makes me feel like I have proven myself to people in my life who no longer are even here or matter anymore – all the way back to my absent mom growing up. I need to break the cycle, and recognize that someone can love me naturally for just exactly who I am, and fast forwarding or moving heaven and earth are signs that what it is isnt real – and will end in yet another disaster. Slow, steady, sure, and growing closer over time are signs of a “good” healthy relationship – and I should not have to “prove myself” or even have someone else prove themselves to me for that to happen. Of course you give your all – hell I always do on the surface – but the partner gives their all too, but we both need to save some of ourselves for us. It really is true, you have to love yourself first before you can really love anyone else, otherwise you don’t know whats ok to give or receive and you are just throwing bombs around.
I had a bad time last night… right before we broke up, when we decided to go back to just dating and not seeing eachother every day, I bought tickets to a play for our mutual Christmas present to eachother. I asked her if she still wanted to go and she said yes so I got them. The plan was for us to go together and then spend the weekend just me and her.. well that was this weekend, and the show was last night. A week after I bought them she told me it was over, and at our last dinner together she offered to pay me for them but I told her to just keep them and go, as a last gift from me.. I told her she didnt know she was going to break up with me at the time and I bought them in good faith, and that as long as she didnt take another guy I would like her to go. I dont even know if she went or now, last I heard she was taking her girlfriend, but I felt sad that it was me and her that were supposed to be there, and she was so excited about going and spending the weekend just me and her – and it was a stinking week before she decided she didnt want me in her life anymore and now could give a crap about me.. just depressing. I didnt contact her though, nothing at all… and she of course didnt contact me so I made it through. I will never even know if she went or not as I am not going to try to snoop around. The truth is I only want to know if she went so I can tell myself maybe just maybe she thought of me when she was there or maybe it changed her mind a little about me… but its a stupid game and will lead to disaster and more hurt. I need to let her go, I guess it just takes time to get her out of my system. Of course she doesnt care and isnt thinking about me – if she was I wouldve heard from her. She’s “having fun and not being in anything serious” exactly what she said. It doesnt matter how great she thought it was or I thought it was, it wasnt real – even down to me changing her kids diapers lol, something I never thought I would do in my life as I have no kids of my own – it didnt really mean anything to her.
I remembered last night our talk when she said she needed space the one day… and we got into a discussion on what love is.. I defined what I thought love meant to me as best as I could, and asked her what she thought of when she thought of love… and she had no answer at all, could not even give me a vague idea of what it meant to her. All she said was she didnt know, but knew when she felt it. She told me to stop pressuring her and making her feel guity and that I was suffocating her. The the next Tuesday she “loved me more than she has loved any man and didnt want to lose me.” and I agreed to go back to dating. I shouldve finished it that day. The writing was on the wall from the beginning and I see that now – but even I could not argue with this last thing. I had to try to validate myself again though, get her to love me so I could love myself and feel like I was worthy of something that I shouldve had in me already – but she didnt even know what love was to her, and even it it was love would she even know it? She may never… I miss her, alot, and I did love her alot too, but I think I was just as misguided as she was. We were a match made in hell as it were lol.. I have to break the chain. I hope she finds herself too though, I know she wants more than shallow casual relationships and I know she is trying so hard to do what she thinks is right by her kids and herself… she just cant see. I know I cant try to help her though and I cant save her – I need to save myself.
Rambling again lol… anyway, again I am soooo thankful for the replies, Bella and K especially, and also anyone else who takes the time to read and write. I am getting over this hump. I think people attract what they are.. and I see I have been emotionally unavailable to good, pretty much whole women and overly available to ones who cant give me what I am looking for either. Its a pattern that I have to change.
Proof of an argument I had on here with some lass about men not having as much feelings, or as much ability as to women do to comminicate and more, You’ve shown them all in a major way -and thank you : )
We are not a seperate “Species” and they can be very communicable, emotional and REAL, thank you very much.
Bob:
You will get through this because you have what it takes…the will and desire to heal. I’m spiritual, I believe we are all connected and what I do can effect someone on the other side of the planet. I do believe in God, but am not religious. My relationship with God is mine and his.
That said, here is the absolute best definition of Love I’ve ever heard and ever will hear:
“Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends.”
As for your ex that WAS available and truly loved you, here is something to think about:
I received a message from my first love who was unfortunately EU at the time. He wrote me 25 years after we broke up to say he WAS truly sorry for treating me like crap all of those years ago and has regretted his behavior all of these years. He wasn’t sniffing around to get back together. It was heartfelt and genuine and did so much for me to receive that apology. You may want to contact her as long as it’s for her, not for you.
TTYL.
This is so true, and it’s actually hilarious because I got those exact same words from someone who I confronted on behavior that had bummed me out. “It is what it is.” Had I read this beforehand I would have asked, “What does that mean?” Not expecting a mature answer, but, I feel like now that I know what he’s doing more clearly, I can back out and let him reveal himself for what he is and what I am to him: backburner.
I don’t have time for “guessing games” and vague answers,or replies.. Give me a backbone and upfront honesty, ( Know what you want ) That is what I’m trying to be and give anymore.
Don’t see it very “manly” that is for sure.