I’ve recently had the highly disconcerting experience of someone pulling a ‘switcheroo’ in a situation where they were in the wrong, but by the time they finished with their crazy-making attempts, they had positioned themselves as the victim. I know I’m not alone in this experience because I’ve heard from so many people who’ve wondered:
I’ve said many times that life is a journey and it’s not a case of building up your self-esteem and then case closed. Life will throw things your way that put what you’ve been learning to the test, ultimately reminding you of who you are and valuable lessons you’ve previously learned. Because I hear from so many of you who are still disorientated after having someone effectively pull a switcheroo and project their shadiness onto you, I wanted to share what I’ve learned.
Or you will become one in the blink of an eye if you trigger their victim role reflexes.
Regardless of whether or not you want to be the victim, in their mind, there is only one victim and one ego.
When you express feelings, thoughts, and opinions that don’t chime with their agenda, or you don’t do things ‘their way’, they feel under threat. They will then cut you down and do whatever they need in order to reestablish their status quo.
You see the ‘switcheroo’ in full effect when you say or show that they’ve overstepped your boundaries.
With more reasonable people, you can have a discussion and not be afraid of it turning into When Sharks Attack. You can say, “What did you mean by that?” without receiving an onslaught of character assassination. With someone whose comfort zone is ‘victim’, asserting your boundaries is seen as disrespecting theirs, even though they have little or no respect for yours.
In the time it takes for this person to respond (it could be as little as seconds) to your asserting boundaries, you are temporarily in what they regard as their role (the victim). Even though they might deny recognising that there’s an issue, what they do recognise, on some level, are the same things they would constitute as being over the line with them. Or they might recognise it because it’s not the first time they’ve been at this juncture.
Instead of discussing, arguing even, apologising, clarifying or whatever, their next and subsequent responses are about becoming the victim again. Possibly through what they consider their best lines of defense: guilting and attacking. The tone will change, possibly gradually or dramatically. They might claim you’ve ‘misunderstood‘, that you’re ‘oversensitive‘, ‘needy‘ or whatever. Yet they either don’t seek to explain what they meant or what they say and do next compounds the original boundary bust. Of course, if you point this out, they’ll also say you’re still misunderstanding or that you’re attacking them.
If you try to defend yourself, even respectfully, you are ‘wrong’, ‘difficult’ and ‘provoking’ their behaviour and other such guff.
The crazy-maker might accuse you of having ‘anger management issues’ while shouting at or even physically attacking you.
If you’re talking normally, they keep saying you’re “angry”, and, eventually, after they’ve found the right ‘insult code’, you do get angry. And you’re still ‘wrong’. In the meantime, they may choose to be matter of fact in their insults without shouting. In turn, they’ll claim that they’re not insulting you and that you’re, yep, oversensitive.
If you try to back away, they might accuse you of trying to ‘make [them] look bad’. It might even be seen as an admission of guilt.
Whatever you’ve said about or to them becomes what you’re now guilty of.
Whatever they’re saying and doing also becomes what you’re responsible for.
Anything they say is the truth and voicing an opinion. Everything you say is lies and distortion. If you repeat what they say, that’s also a lie and distortion. Am I making you crazy yet?
For extra effect, especially if you’re related or they’ve known you for a while, or they’re just petty anyway, they start Bringing Up Old Shit. Family, in particular, like bringing in everything but the kitchen sink.
The only thing you really can do is get off the phone or away from the situation as fast as you can, preferably while saying as little as possible. It doesn’t matter what you say. The crazy-maker’s already made up the ending in their mind. You’re just a prop in their drama.
It’s very easy to fall into the trap of attempting to make sense out of nonsense. Believe me, I’ve been ensnared in that trap many a time, often as a child.
Don’t try to make sense out of nonsense.
I don’t ask why it’s going to hurt if a car runs me down. Instead, I don’t step into oncoming traffic, and I try to be streetwise.
If a car’s coming towards me, and the driver is someone I know, and they’re not slowing down and driving straight at me, I’ll be damned if I’m going to stand there asking “Why are you running me down?”. This will be all while they’re revving their engine at me and telling me it’s my fault they’re behind the wheel and driving at me when they’ve had more than enough time and chances to stop and back away. They’re running me down. What more do I need to know?
None of the behaviour of someone who pulls this crazy-making bullshit on you is normal. Oh, it might seem normal if you’ve grown up around this carry-on or become acclimatised to it with someone, but it isn’t, and it sure as hell won’t feel like it.
What I can tell you with no equivocations is: it’s not about you.
Now get the hell out of dodge.
Your thoughts?
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Wow. You must have written this article about my ex! Who unfortunately, lives two apartment doors down from me. Thanks again for some kick *ss insight! HB
The one line that resonated with me the most was “You’re just a prop in their drama.”
OMG…isn’t that the truth?
Had the month from hell walking away from someone who did everything to cause conflict, all the while playing the biggest victim…even to the extent where they put insults upon themselves in my name: “You probably think I’m a total b&&tard”, for example.
Well, I don’t think they’re a b&&&&&d. I think they’re a gutless selfish wonder who is determined to be a victim in everything so that they never have to take responsibility for anything whatsoever and, more importantly, so they will never have to change when it’s always someone else’s fault.
The best part was that, while they were playing the poor victim, they started seeing someone else behind my back. I’m not surprised. I never engaged or participated in the bashing of their ex. This new person is quite happy to ex-bash as they have apparently similar divorce baggage. This new person enables their butt in a way that I would never and could never.
Does it hurt any less that I can understand what happened? Yes and no. It’s always painful to be lied to and disrespected. However, it makes it a lot easier to keep away when you realise that you’ve just had one hell of a lucky escape.
Even better, they’ve re-written history to make me the one who pursued them (perhaps the ultimate in crazy-making behaviour). Can’t tell you how tempted I was to share the semi-nude photographs and love poems sent to me. If I was childish and vindictive, I would have repaid their breach of trust with my own. I wonder if they will ever truly understand how lucky they are that I would never do something like that no matter how hurt and angry I was.
Luckily the only right thing and sane thing to do is to leave the craziness behind and keep on walking without looking back…
Bermiegirl,
I just love your whole response.
That thing where someone will put words in your mouth when THEY have done something hurtful, like when your ex would say, “You probably think I’m a total bastard.” Thats what a victim does because they know they probably are, but if they say it first, put it on you, they can have their self fulfilling prophecy reaffirmed and go on being a total bastard, poor them they just can’t help how they are. It’s not your fault, but you have to live with the pain of how you were treated AND wonder at the same time if you should have tried to prop them up, helped them feel better. WTF?? They see the Florence’s in us and use the fact that we do have decentness in us, which they are lacking! Do you know how many times the ex-AC called me nice in this weird half compliment half insult like I was just always going to be ok because I’m “nice” but again, it felt like a diss? They just get to keep on being their poor selves.
I also love that you put into words what I’ve been feeling a lot of, and that is do I feel better understanding what is going on? Like you say, Yes and No. I think for me, more understanding has led to more confidence, more me having my own back, and THAT has helped me feel better. I won’t ever NOT feel the lowest I’ve felt in my whole life remembering all he lied to be about, used me for, deceived me, that will always hurt. And, it sounds like you, I know he has told and will continue to spin his whole tale of me and what happened between us to other people. When I feel the fire of anger in me knowing that, I have to tell myself, you know what really happened, you left for the real reasons, and he knows it too, but he is the one that will have to walk this earth knowing he is nothing but a liar.
These two responses sums up EVERYTHING I’ve been through. In fact, I think they have helped me come full circle in my own struggles and have showed me the truth of the situation I’ve been trying to heal from. It truly was never about me, or any of us on BR. Gawd I hope this has FINALLY sunk into my thick head!!
With my bus driver situation, those buses have video and audio hooked up all over them. I don’t have enough fingers, toes, limbs, and other extremities to count how many times he called me every derogatory name and accused me of unspeakable acts, in front of his entire company in an indirect way. What I didn’t realize at the time was that he was projecting his own image onto me to make himself feel better about who he is. Well, all of that went down on camera, right? What he discovered ‘off-camera’ when no one but God was looking, was totally the opposite of what he accused me of. And I have no doubt that he bragged his untrue bullshit to everyone and their brother in his company, possibly even his girlfriend to save his own ass from being kicked out into the street.
NCC, your line “I know he has told and will continue to spin his whole tale of me and what happened between us to other people. When I feel the fire of anger in me knowing that, I have to tell myself, you know what really happened, you left for the real reasons, and he knows it too, but he is the one that will have to walk this earth knowing he is nothing but a liar” has helped me put everything in perspective and has helped me answer my own question about ‘where’s his karma?’ Perhaps him walking this earth knowing the real truth of what happened and the knowledge that he really is nothing but a lowlife who doesn’t deserve to breath the same air as me is his karma.
He’s retired now, but I know he still keeps in touch with his company in some way. Not to be paranoid, but I feel I still have to watch my back when I’m riding the bus (again, video/audio). There is this new bus driver on my route who exhibits similar stuff and makes similar comments that this other jerk used to do to get me hooked. I TOTALLY see the signs, but this guy, I have to admit, is a little different in that he has never slagged off his wife like the other guy did to his girlfriend (to gain sympathy and an ego stroke), freely talks about the life he’s lived (NOTHING like the other AC. He’s actually lived a very good exciting life), flirts friendly but is never ever over the top like the other guy, and truly seems like a decent human being, talks about the church he and his wife go to, that sort of thing. We trade stories, ideas, he’s even given me his card with his and his wife’s number on it. My spidey senses have been feeling around the situation and I’ve not felt anything creepy, but I’m still on my guard, recognize ‘iffy’ behavior, not going to get sucked into anything. It could be perfectly innocent. But after my experience, I’m more aware of things, plus, going back to trying not to be paranoid yet watching my back, you never know who knows who in this company, who’s been talking to whom, who has seen/heard certain video/audio and is watching things now. The AC’s girlfriend also worked for this company. The old bus driver may in fact be trying to bait me to prove himself right and me the ‘little lying slut’ as it were. LOL Again, not going to be paranoid at all, just cautious, and living in complete joy that I know the truth about the situation, about who I am as a woman/person, and about the fact that I’m always one step ahead of everyone and can outsmart their Sherlock Holmes bullshit any day. This experience, though has made me a little more cautious and aware of bullshit than I used to be, has not changed my friendly personality in any way shape or form. They can watch all the video they want. I’m going to show them the truth, and the beauty of it is, all I have to do is be myself. The truth will prevail.
Uh huh. Bring it…
Great article! Great timing…I needed it today…I just read another one today about gaslighting…
http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-you-are-not-“crazy”/
That is what this is…apparently there is a great movie about this…I would rent it but it would make me feel CCCRRAAAAZYYY indeed 🙂
This is a great movie and very enlightening. I watched it after a particular crazy-making relationship almost drove me to a nervous breakdown…
Yes, Kelly! That is a FANTASTIC article and I thought of it immediately when I read the above post.I dated a man who absolutely did this to me. He’d stand me up or ignore my texts and I’d end up apologizing to him! (apparently for misunderstanding the unspoken agreement of having common courtesy!)
This post couldn’t have come at a more perfect time as I have been strongly resisting the urge to go right back to this guy. Much time has lapsed but he’s in my thoughts a lot all of a sudden. This post reminded me to stay strong!
My ex too.. Crazy making, for sure! Thanks, Nat for making me realise I’m 100% normal with no anger management issues to take care of. He had me wondering for a while ..
WELL SAID! I always try to get away from a conversation if this “dance” is going on. I usually just tell someone that I refuse to dance their dance and end the conversation.
Of course then, I’m accused of being a biotch but so be it. In some people’s eyes they can do no wrong and you’re the enemy no matter what. I’ve given up caring about people like that. Let them live in their own little drama.
Starshine,
“I always try to get away from a conversation if this “dance” is going on. I usually just tell someone that I refuse to dance their dance and end the conversation.”
Yep, and it feel so good! I told my father that I did not want to go on this rollarcoaster with him when he tried to talk to me the next day. He responded by saying, “well most normal families talk out these problems.” Yet another back handed victim response. Yet another affirmation that with him, no one is allowed to have boundaries if it makes him feel awkward or foolish. It takes so much just to walk away and not engage, even more to process the years of attempts at crazy making and grieve what is lost, and also what never was, the fantasy. Like you say, everyone is the enemy, no matter what.
in the wise words of someone on this site eons ago…”don’t dance the fandango blindfolded on a unicycle for ANYONE”
let these “men” be their own court jesters.
Do you have a camera on my back. You said it just as it is. Is it the food these people eat that gives them the right to be rude, disrespectful and obnoxious all in one breath. I was blown away by a egomaniac earlier today and to be truthful she left me speechless. Just glad i don’t have to work with her. Will try to stay far from those demons! Thanks for the blog.
I read just about every article you publish and almost always find at least something in each one that is helpful to me. But THIS. So good. Thank you!
I just wonder Where the Heck MEN learn this behavior? I have ZERO tolerance for it…and that is NO LIE. Just say No to Mind Fuc_ery!!
Often times when I read you I have this feeling that you are inside my mind XD
And yet it feels great to learn that even though as a human I do make mistakes, not always I’m the “problem carrier”.
Since I left behind this hideous unavailable assclown I had I cant but smile, breathe & exhale peace and quietness and enjoy how good it feels to be with myself… so much better than spending one more second of my life with an energy vampire… too bad I didnt realize this earlier, right? Whatever… it´s the past and Im glad I finally found a honeymoon with myslef, it really is priceless
omg nat!
this reminds me of a huge row me and an ex had. we had ended because he did not want to be sexually exclusive and i prefer to be. a year after the break up, which was amicable, we were still “friends” but not really regularly seeing each other. i ran into him at a party and a mutual friend was leaving town the next day so he invited a few folks for afterparty drinks at his place. when i got there all the girls except our mutual friend were girls who i know he has slept with recently or before me, and if he had told me that i wouldn’t have come.it felt very haremy. one was an ex flatmate i met while i was dating him who he hooked up after we broke up with .she threw a hissy tantrum one time when i came to see him(platonic, we listened to records) that relationship exploded til she moved out of the flat and out of the country! she was in town “visiting” the new girl flatmate, another was an on/off fwb from before me who really loathed me when i dated him and was always cold and curt with me. i made a joke and calmly told him that this get-together was awkward as hell and was turning into the congress of women he has slept with and i was out. i thought he’d laugh ,honestly. i just thought it was a funny situation i didn’t need to be in at 4am and that i wouldnt have willingly come to if i knew who would be there. i did not yell at him for inviting me to most awkward party ever, nor did i pout , or act jealous in any way, i merely made a joke and opted for home.but no he did not laugh even a lil, the tone changed so suddenly, he snapped at me about how it’s only three women and hardly a congress and i need to stop being so judgmental. he yelled that i had catholic guilt that i was projecting onto him about his sex life because i have not slept with as many ppl and dont hook up randomly and he was sick of it. firstly, i’m not even religious so wtf? i was so lost. just because i broke things off with him because he wanted to sleep with other people didnt mean i judged him, we had broken up amicably over tea, both agreed we wanted different things and over a year ago! and now he was turning it into my religious fanaticism. and you’re right, there was no arguing with him so i just left. no point talking to a crazy person. so yeah that whole friends with an ex situation didn’t pan out.
Spot on! I’m going through this sh*t right now. Mine stems from trust issues “If you trust too much you can’t tell fact from fiction,if you didn’t trust somewhat, you wouldn’t know if your perception is down to paranoia” + power issues!
Too much projection going on, one cannot see the wood for the trees! Bravo Nathalie
A well-timed post. I went on a date with a man that went nicely. A few days after the date he texted me saying I was a tease, with a smiley face. I was offended, and said so. He replied that he thought I was attractive and not being able to kiss or hold me felt like a tease, which he liked, then went on to tell me he was joking, was a light-hearted guy, never created drama and I should to know that (after one date?!).
I said that sounded like he had carte blanch to say whatever he wanted and I had to suck it up even if it offended me; that I didn’t have the right to be my own person with my own likes and dislikes and I found the lack of apology poor form.
He did eventually apologise and said he didn’t mean to offend me…..then told me I must have trust issues. After one date he knows all about me. Puh-leze.
I went overseas for 3 weeks; when I returned he texted and said he’d love to see me when I was ready (didn’t ask if I wanted to see him). I replied that I didn’t think we were compatible and got a stream of texts about him being too tall/old/broken then a random switch to telling me he was at a job expo looking for work. I wished him luck, he replied that he was lucky. Ummmm…ok!
I deleted his number pronto.
You’ve described my ex narcissistic personality disordered partner to a tee. Three years of that was way more than enough crazy making shit.
Just recently had something happen with me and what’s new with me is now I think, Hey, despite what you’re going through and what you want, etc., you disregarded and hurt my feelings. And guess what, my feelings matter and that just ain’t cool with me anymore.” It’s nice to be on my side for a change. It’s amazing the difference in the other party as well.
Wow, how timely is this for me. My ex-fiance and I broke up about 2 weeks ago. I’d invited him out for his birthday to a lovely restaurant- one of the nicest in the city and he’d initially accepted. Things were not going well overall and then he refused to go because it wasn’t good enough for him. Believe me, this is a terrific and popular restaurant. That did it and we broke up. After I told him how much planning I had done, his sole response was “sorry for the inconvenience”! Not sorry because he’d really hurt me and dissed me! Only “sorry for the inconvenience!” Then today he emails me he’s “wounded.” What about the wonderful, expensive dinner I’d invited him to and he refused to go because it wasn’t good enough for him? He is the only person who has been hurt? Jerk! And he has also notified me twice about all his dates. I do not believe him- he is just trying to mess with my mind. We’d been engaged for about 8 or 9 months and about 4 or 5 weeks ago he changed dramatically.
Amazing how heartless he’d become. I’d sacrificed and bought him a very expensive diamond ring for Christmas. Meant nothing to him. When we broke up he actually wanted to keep it. I told him NO WAY and he finally gave it back. I’d spent much more on gifts for him than he ever spent on me. (My teensy engagement ring had been a big disappointment but I never said anything as I would NEVER have wanted to hurt HIS feelings. I am not that shallow!)
I have learned my lesson. If you are too loving, kind, generous, and thoughtful, you get pooped on!
Maybe I’ll get over feeling like that someday but not for a while!
Mary,
Im terribly sorry to hear that – that is so very awful and insensitive. So he broke up because the restaurant was not good enough for him???? WHAT?!
How long had you been together? And he has told you about dating other women–did I get this right?
Hi PurpleLily,
We’d been together over a year and a half and engaged about 8 months. Actually the birthday dinner debacle was the icing on the cake. I’d actually given back his ring about 3 weeks before but hadn’t completely cut things off- my mistake! Yes, he’s had a date or two since I game him back the ring but I really don’t care. They are welcome to my discard! I am really the one who finally broke it off because of the dinner thing but he still emails me daily like nothing happened. Got an email this morning telling me he misses me! He had previously backed out of doing two things that were extremely important to me- one was a concert I’d been looking forward to for many months- and suddenly when we went out we could ONLY go where he wanted to go. This happened over the last two months which is why I returned his ring. It is amazing how he changed over time.
I have a very clear conscience about being very good to him and very thoughtful concerning him. I suspect he began to take me for granted and now he’s finding it isn’t so easy to find someone else who might be right for him. He even took a date to a place we used to go and came home and immediately emailed me about what a great time they had- how adolescent and immature!
I’ve had one date that was pretty much of a bomb and I am pretty sure this other guy is going to ask me out but I really need a break. I have noticed though that my ex is on “Match” HOURS every day. Most of the men I have ever know seem to be desperate to get back in a relationship after a breakup. Women, I believe, are much more independent.
Sorry if this is all a mishmash but it has been really upsetting for a while and a real emotional roller coaster but it is getting much better within the last few days.
Mary why on earth are you accepting this idiots emails? block him! Do you need to know who/where he is dating? Nope. It sounds as though you have acquitted yourself really well in difficult cirumstances. Just be grateful you didn’t marry the creep and move on, working on yourself.
Build up your self esteem again by spending time with friends who value you, be kind to yourself, do what YOU want to do.
And stop cyberstalking him on Match etc. Block him every which way you can. Honestly it is the only way to recover.
Hey Tabitha, when are you conducting the masterclass in BEING A BADASS NO-SHIT-TAKING MOFO. You. Are. Formidable.x
And btw, if a guy got back into the dating circuit immediately after breaking off an engagement this would be a red flag to me. I know many guys act like that, but to me this kind of behavior screams “EU”.
ha! I wish! I still have my wobbles. I am good at dishing out the advice but less good at consistently having positive thoughts myself. I haven’t contacted him though so all is well. I even met a potential new fella!!! How is it going with yours (if you can tie it into the topic?) Otherwise Nat will have to oblige us by posting a new topic about how to get back into dating using your newly found BR knowledge so we can go wild!!!
Mary, you gave HIM an engagement ring? Is that what people do nowadays, give the man a diamond ring??
I must be really out of it…
Usually all your posts relate to my ex. But since I’m getting over that I am realising other toxic relaltionships in my life. This is my mum down to a T. Nothing is good enough for her and I am a constant disappointment.
Religion is a very big thing for my parents and if I’m with someone who isn’t the same religion/speaks the same language then I am selfish.
I have to focus on my own happiness and not let it bother me because it affects my relationships with others.
How can you do this to us? Your children are going to be confused. Why don’t you listen to us and make us happy? It’s all about them.
By the way I’m 27 and I still can’t believe how controlling they are. It drives me crazy.
Downunder, (and hello if you are from Oz too!)
I thought the same thing when I read this “Whaaaat? When did Nat meet my DAD??” My dad is the same and controlling to the nth degree. Im 29 and even a few months ago when I visited him, we had a massive fight because he was trying to control me leaving the house and meeting my friends (yes, Im 29..he knows that too).
I fought back and argued until he got that I was not allowing him to walk all over me. My mum (the doormat of the century) even said that it was because I disagreed with him and didnt seek his “permission”. BLAH!
I completely get where you are coming from. I dont know why parents do this. It has however been the highlight and lowlight of my lives – Ive been most broken hearted and low because of them but also learnt the most number of lessons. Post-BR, I have tightened my boundaries and made it very clear that they cannot cross this line.
I hope you are able to gather your strength and do the same – there will be a lot of emotional blackmail they throw your way (selfish, unkind, disrespectful etc) but stay strong.
Yes I have been on the end of similar crazy making behaviour, when someone says and does something that crosses my boundaries but then viola somehow it’s forgotten about or minimised and I’m overreacting or similar. Also stories chopping and changing, admitting something and then later denying that admission so that you are left wondering…did I imagine that? Am I going crazy. It’s a total head-f*%k!
Hi Truthjoybeauty… you have the same middle name of my oldest and dearest friend!
I am at work now, but I will comment when I get home. Have just experienced this yesterday… still in shock….
“When you express feelings, thoughts, and opinions that don’t chime with their agenda or you don’t do things ‘their way’, they feel under threat and will cut you down and do whatever they need to in order to reestablish their status quo.”
Myself and another of my colleagues (now quit) has been enduring the double standards of our receptionist, who is a dutiful personal assistant to the highly paid staff and a sultry, half arsed excuse for a receptionist to those of us at the bottom of the pay scale. I have been asserting myself lately (picking her up on her non-committal replies, phone messages that are ‘forgotten’ and stating she is being sarcastic when she is). This has taken much effort as I am not used to being assertive with her.
In response, she upped her sarcastic comments to an intolerable level and ensured paperwork was not available until the last minute. I went to her said I had noticed she had been snappy of late and asked if I had done something to upset her. I was told I was undermining her with patronising comments about the way she does things and that she does not take well to people (me) being a smart arse. I said I had found her sarcastic lately and she denied it.
Unbelievable!! Now the work environment sucks while I continue to be professional while wanting to slap her. Any advice???? Oh, she is related to my boss.
“When you express feelings, thoughts, and opinions that don’t chime with their agenda or you don’t do things ‘their way’, they feel under threat and will cut you down and do whatever they need to in order to reestablish their status quo.”
Bingo. Ever since the last interaction with Dad since I’ve decided to go low contact/working on NC….I’ve asked myself, “did I REALLY DO something terrible and I totally deserved his outburst and reaction?” BR gave me the strength, and the knowledge that I had every right, to say this to him…He had gone into comparing me to his friends’ daughters who more stable than me and seemed to be well, better than me as he put it. I told him, “wait, if you have valid concerns with how I’ve treated YOU, I am willing to listen to that. But I REFUSE to be compared to ANYONE. I’m not down for that.” His response? “I don’t CARE what you are DOWN for.” Wow.
I’ve been put down by him my whole life ANYTIME I stepped up to his BS and he is a grown man of retirement age and still the victim who apparently has been mistreated by me since before I can even remember. I can honestly say I have always been tried to be respectful and mature with it as well, I don’t call him names, but as we know, I was trying to have a reasonable discussion with an unreasonable man. Automatic victim. Not allowed to question that.
Venting here a lot so want to say that this has felt like a lifelong mind-F, gas lighting, whatever, so thank you Natalie and BR friends for sharing and supporting. I’m not perfect but hey, maybe I’m not all those things I’ve been called either.
Re-Reading my comment I wonder too, and think yes is the answer, that when my dad would get angry about me questioning his behavior, (even when it was before I learned not to if I wanted to avoid being verbally abused and it was rather innocent), was he projecting on me his feelings of inadequacy that he learned because his father was emotionally and verbally abusive to him, he perceives most people to be criticizing him, and most things feel like a threat to him, even when it’s not always the case? I’ve always felt sad for my Dad that he was treated this way, but also rather sad is that he never took the time to really try and change, I know he had moment’s of “clarity” but it always went back to the same old same old, and he just continued the cycle of abuse.
The EUAC does this all the time. When I was thinking of being friends with him again, he did something, I called him on it and received this treatment. Fortunately, with my recently-found BR knowledge and the self-esteem I’ve built up over the past few months, I knew he was the one with the problem and realized we could never be friends because he doesn’t know what it means to be a friend. Me being his friend would mean returning to the narcissistic harem, and I refuse to do that.
NML, thank you so much for this website and the wisdom it provides. 🙂
Thanks for this. This describes to a “t” a falling-out which I had with a work colleague and platonic friend in March. I made the mistake, once he made it clear that he was not going to apologize for humiliating me in front of my friends, of getting very angry and using profanity to underscore my outrage. He took that as all the proof he needed to become the victim. I’m not giving all the facts here, but the situation is story book. We work as freelancers together, and, ironically, have a reputation as being a fantastic team. This is, in part, because I have allowed him to feel like the superior talent in our collaborations, and he has never felt threatened by me… until I called him out in March. Anyway, after he unleashed three consecutive e-mails of bile, going into his paranoid story of how I had been untrustworthy for months (huh?) I let it drop, and have been in the platonic equivalent of “no contact” since that fateful day. I avoid social situations where he is present, and am thankful that we do not have a freelance-gig together in the books until the fall. However, at some point, we are going to have to confront each other. The old me, in the interest of keeping the peace, would have done whatever to smooth things out, but I do not know what the new me, who does not let people deride and insult me in front of others, will do if I never get acknowledgment that he acted poorly. Has anyone ever braved through a similar situation? I know that I will never get this apology from him, but I know that I can’t avoid him forever, especially when our work picks up again.
Amanda
Think ‘implacable courtesy’, it works a treat and you never get into the drama. Keeps it all professional and unemotional, no matter what you feel.
Keeping things professional and unemotional can be the best thing to do when there are witnesses (because it tends to make the OTHER, less calm person look bad). Anyway, in my experience constant “professional and unemotional” behavior can also mean “constantly acting like a doormat”. It’s a tricky thing. Sometimes a strategically placed tantrum is the only way to get your message across (if this is possible at ALL).
Amanda, if I were you I would also consider looking for another business partner. Apparently he has taken advantage of you for quite a long time. Don’t rely on him too much.
Thanks, I took the risk in expressing my hurt feelings exactly so that he would know that I wasn’t going to be a doormat this time around. I regret my use of profanity, but I otherwise kept my remarks succinct. For every two paragraphs of unedited bile he sent my way, I had a short, five-word response, shutting him down. I let him have the last word, and I walked away. I’ve also worked hard to not process about this with the colleagues and friends whom we have in common. This fellow has a reputation for being a diva, but I don’t want to be involved with propagating that. Let other people find out, on their own, that he’s not worth the genius he brings to the table. I guess that I fear that breaking up our professional team means that other people are going to ask questions. It also really sucks to back out of the professional opportunities our group has, just to avoid working with him.
I had dinner with a mutual friend who had an 8-month standoff with this crazy man a couple of years ago. My friend advised that after a few more months pass, I approach him, take charge, assert that we put the fight behind us and repair our professional relationship. Assert with silence that the personal relationship is over. We’ll see. The mutual friend is a man, and I think that my crazy friend is misogynist enough to only take that kind of direction from another man.
Natalie,
Seems like you are channeling this wisdom & I sure appreciate that you are sharing it with us ! This makes so much sense, and this ” Victim Bully” is someone I’ve experienced. I’m living my own life and won’t ever do this type of sick relationship again. I have ZERO tolerance for ‘repair-Job’ men who come into my life.!
Ha! You met my Ex husband too! When I finally left my marriage, I really felt like I was insane.
He was Irrational and unreasonable and continues to be so to this day.. “the never ing divorce” especially regarding our child.
“Anything you say is lies and distortion. If you repeat what they say, that’s also a lie and distortion…
.
If you so much as attempt to refer to anything from as little as five minutes before, you’re petty and Bringing Up Old Sh*t.”
The above characterized my Ex to a T: Thanks to him, I have learned to detect these behaviors much sooner.
There is really no way to communicate with an irrational person, so I do not. Since I have learned to not engage my Ex in discussions regarding expenses or our son, ( seems to only consider himself in these matters and I am always wrong or behaving badly), my life has become so much more peaceful.
I don’t know what I am doing wrong in raising such a great kid and make sure my kid has a roof over his head… 😉
People like this are keen from the offset to put their problems in your lap and if you’re not careful you end up wearing them all like a heavy horrible coat! I walked away so many times from my ex and felt great every time. At the end up he told me I hadn’t been caring enough to help him and this was the reason that he thought there was nothing left for him but suicide. I backed away but worried so much about him and felt so guilty that I gave in and phoned to check he was ok. He drained me for weeks talking about his problems being down to him not getting a football trophy when he was 9 and all the while telling me my new business was nonsense. I called counselors for him looked up websites on depression until one day he told me he wasn’t going to see me again, if he had a more supportive girlfriend then maybe his problems would clear up!! Ladies, don’t take on the crazy, I couldn’t agree more. xx
What an amazing post! Recently have been trying to understand why my “friend” hurt me very deeply/crossed my explicit boundaries (playing on every aspect of my personality that he knows is vulnerable), then when I called him on his behavior, he turned it around to make me the ‘bad guy’ and then proceeded (invoking that tired, stupid “over-sensitive” clause, sheesh, who still SAYS that??) to try to punish me for my honest inquiry by going silent in a very pouty way for over two weeks. Of course, he is still “punishing” me so self-righteously that he hasn’t even noticed that I am no longer around, lol! Wonder when he will figure out that the “punishee” has walked away from the punisher! Thank you so much for bringing this out, just incredible insights, and very timely, very courageous-making! 😉
This is the story of my ex husband and most guys I’ve dated since. The way they have the nerve to turn everything around and always make me feel like the bad guy.
The ex husbands best trick:
He’d drive home drunk every night from work.
In the morning, before I went to work, I’d tell (NOT yell, though to hear him say it, I was screaming like a Banshee) him that driving home drunk was really bad.
Then that would make him sad/depressed.
Then he couldn’t go to work, because he was so sad.
Because he is a high-end waiter, no work=no money for the day.
When he didn’t bring home any money, we couldn’t pay the bills.
Ergo, it was my fault we were broke.
And the circle would continue day after day.
I will no longer tolerate this kind of stuff. I have a supervisor who is notorious for this kind of behavior, I avoid her like the plague and remind myself that EVERYTHING she says is complete bullshit. It’s such a passive aggressive way to be. Blech.
OMG – that’s my old ex-AC!!! He always played the victim. No matter the issue/problem it was always someone else, usually one of his 3 ex wives, AND he always used to say how ‘angry’ I was! And I would think to myself “I’m not angry, I’m just trying to tell you how I feel”. In his mind I was never allowed to feel anything buy admiration for him. He used to call his house “the house of freedom”….under my breath I would say “This is the house of CRAZY”. The night I last saw him and left permanently, I had gone over to his house to talk with him and let him know what I needed from the relationship. I said I needed to hear that he loved me (at least once in a while) and that he appreciated what I did for him. His comment to me was “Why are you attacking me?” I told him I wasn’t attacking him, that I was trying to let him know what I needed, because (and here is where I excuse his behavior) if I didn’t tell him what I needed how would he know? When I left the ‘house of crazy’, it was good and bad. I had a feeling of elation, and a feeling of dread. I never thought I could get along with out him. But guess what? I CAN GET ALONG WITHOUT HIM, and much better! Yes, it’s been difficult and there are times when I have thought maybe I should have given him another chance. But like someone said “when someone shows you who they are, believe them and move on”. I’m still healing, still working on my self-esteem and I still get depressed over it once in awhile. But, all in all, this is the best thing I have ever done. And this was an 18 year on and off relationship. 2012 was an intense year of being on and off….however, with the help of a few really good friends and Baggage Reclaim, I’ve finally realized that the past years are gone and cannot be recaptured, but I can move forward to something better. And I am! Yeah for me!!!!!
unfortunately, this describes my mother to a T. Hard to get out of dodge with family, can’t really break up with them. So, what you say is best, this isn’t about me. I’ve been dealing with this one my entire life, and still dealing with it. Problem is it doesn’t help not having a partner who has my back, like my sister does. I’ve had to fight this battle all alone, friends have listened and been there. I’ve forever wanted to create my own family to have a buffer from the family of origin, but it hasn;t happened yet. This type of abuse is a spiritual journey all onto itself. I’m still on it.
After going through this for four years with an ex and twisting myself in unnatural ways to ‘be better’ in is eyes, I have no tolerance for this kind of crap anymore, from anyone. I had to go complete NC and get some distance to gain perspective before I was able to see how messed up and emotionally abusive HE was. I wasn’t crazy. I watched my Mom go through this at the hands of my Dad, who was the master of manipulation, when I was a kid. No wonder I thought it was normal. It never ‘felt’ okay though. Now I check in with how “I” feel more than what someone says about me. Life is good now that I have my own back. Thanks to finding BR.
Natalie,
Girrrrrrrl.
I’m misty-eyed at the pure poetry that is this post. Sister knows what’s UP.
I could say many, many things here, as I’ve had MUCH experience with these “pseudo-victims” who bully others. I’ll try to condense it.
First, Natalie, you’re right. In these instances, it’s all about manipulation. These folks are the quintessential wolves in sheep’s clothing. But make no mistake: those teeth are SHARP under all that soft, warm wool.
I once read somewhere about a con-artist who admitted that the best way to con people is to make them pity you (a.k.a, play at being homeless, down on your luck, what have you…)because when a person pities you, they are in a very vulnerable state and it’s actually the PITIED person who has the upper hand. Manipulators count on this. Let’s not make it so easy for them, ya’ll.
Second, some recommended reading for anyone interested:
“Dealing with Manipulative People” by George Simon
“Who’s Pulling Your Strings?” by Harriet Braiker
“Toxic People” by Lillian Glass
Hope this helps. Nat, stellar post. Really. Well done, lady.
Bermiegirl you posted:
“Even better, they’ve re-written history to make me the one who pursued them (perhaps the ultimate in crazy-making behaviour). Can’t tell you how tempted I was to share the semi-nude photographs and love poems sent to me. If I was childish and vindictive, I would have repaid their breach of trust with my own.”
On a certain level I agree with this statement. And perhaps the reason for my dilemma. Anyone who would like to respond to my dilemma is welcome plus Bermiegirl, the situation is such that my ex did this as well but in response to the child neglect investigation that I launched on him as a result of allowing his child to be constipated for 4 months after which time the child passed blood and the mother took her to ER. That was 2 months ago and neither parent has to this day taken her to the specialist that the ER doctor referred her to in order to find out the real cause of the constipation. The child is still taking laxatives and enemas but nobody is getting to the bottom of the cause. The investigator bought his story that I was a jealous ex gf and told the investigator that he did take the child to the doctor. She didn’t properly investigate. She simply took his word for it not asking for the doctor’s information or following up and closed the case. Since that time I’ve received from him several emails proclaiming his love for me which have either been ignored or responded to in the manner of “leave me alone.” I am entertaining the thought of reopening the case but submitting these emails to the investigator’s squad leader. The thing that is holding me back is the “being petty” thing. The thing that has me confused is it’s a child’s health at stake….any advice? Anyone? Thank you.
Biggest takeaway from this post, and from just leaving a crazy maker: NO MORE HAVING TO THINK THE WORST. About him or myself.
The past few months have been thoughts like these: I don’t think he’s telling the truth. Can I really trust him? I’ll never get to the real reason. Did he really mean x, or will the answer change tomorrow? Is he right, am I remembering inaccurately? I know that’s not what he said the last time we talked about this.
He said I had a tendency to INTERROGATE. Darned right. Because he rarely gave consistent responses. It was like nailing down jello.
I made a list of the benefits of leaving: no more having to think the worst was #1.
I love ‘If you repeat what they say, that’s also a lie and distortion.’ (my ex!!!) and the bit about how anything you bring up older than 5 mins is ‘living in the past’ or ‘dont you remember any of the good stuff?’. If you bring up something they said that you didnt like and then they say ‘its always about you isnt it’- yes, when its about me, its about me. Lets make it about me this one time!
We all need a sense of humor and perspective! I can’t imagine (i hope!) putting up with anyone’s bs anymore. Aint no one got time for that.
I’m also struck by how with my good friends I can not even imagine any such situations. Cannot. Thats because they are good people. You have to learn to recognize those people.
I like Natalie’s breaking down of this situation – people who do crazy-making need to be the victim and they need to be right. By calling them out on something, you have messed up their world view. cognitive dissonance. They need to re-instate their feeling of normalcy so they start mindfuggery. Brrrr.
My suggestions: with people like this, dont bother telling them something they did was problematic for you. They will not only deny, but will call you ‘aggressive’, pout, and point out the imagined bad things you did to OTHER people (!!).
With clear cases of this, remember thats its not you, its them. At the same time, I worry about overdoing this – we’re none of us perfect, and should be mindful of what we’re bringing to situations (maybe by just engaging, or maybe doing some crazy stuff of our own).
My ex did this too, whenever I brought up something that was bothering me, I was making everything about me. When he first met me he said I made him want to be a better man. Thing is, he’s incapable of it. I had certain standards and boundaries and instead of rising to them, he cut me down to his level. My self esteem has been in the toilet for three years. Now I see his behavior was unacceptable. My behavior was normal, but I second guessed it because I cared about his opinion.
You’ve done it again, Natalie! This is an AMAZINGLY accurate article that almost describes exactly what I went through recently with my Mr. Unavailable just a few months ago, when he “attacked” me on the subway (verbally) and tried to twist EVERYTHING around about our relationship (or lack there of). You just got everything right… how our “relationship” started with him being the “victim,” and then him turning it around on me when he felt I “overstepped my bounds.” Sometimes it’s almost like you are there…
Wow this post really resonated with me, after a 3-yr r’ship with an assclown who constantly played the victim role, I was made to question my own damn sanity…and I ended up constantly dismissing my feelings for the sake of “peace”… Awful! Even when HE DID WRONG and crossed boundaries… It was always flipped onto me, and deflected and I ended up apologizing! Imagine that? I can look back and laugh at it now, but at the time I was a mess. A total head-f**k of a time, trying to understand why he was doing it… Like there was some logical explination for his foolishness!… Your comment “If a car is coming towards me and the driver is someone I know and they’re not slowing down and driving straight at me, I’ll be damned if I’m going to stand there asking “Why are you running me down?” … That says it all, and now I look back I wish I’d see this post only a year ago, may have saved me a few tears but such is life…To anyone in the situation now, FOLLOW ur own instincts! If something doesn’t feel right it isn’t right and don’t let some damn “victim-hunter” make you feel otherwise!! Ix
Thank you. I am dealing with the nonsense as I write this. It’s so hard to try and understand someone who is always the “victim”. It gets old and hopefully we can all recognize these responses and stop feeding the monster. Xo
Great post, Natalie! And very timely. We need to focus on the one person we can control and understand–ourselves lol Everything else is a waste of time. Thanks so much for continuing to share your wisdom and insights to empower others.
DITTO this…
“The only thing you really can do is get off the phone or away from the situation as fast as you can, preferably while saying as little as possible because it doesn’t matter what you say – the ending of this is already made up in their mind. You’re just a prop in their drama.”
Once I was able to see and accept this type of behavior for what it was…NONSENSE…the sooner I was able to ‘get the hell out of dodge.’ and maintain my sanity.
Thanks for another great post Nat 🙂
Just read this again in the cold light of day, and it’s truly powerful stuff, brings me close to tears – of elation (that I’ve escaped) and of relief (that I wasn’t the crazy, argumentative but job my ex made me out to be).. Who needs therapy when you have this site – you’re doing an amazing job, Nat – thanks 🙂
Thanks Natalie, this could not have come at a better moment. Was told a couple of days ago that I was a bitch. Not even in an argument, just like that, in a cold blooded way because I dared to ask him to bear with me a couple of minutes so I could finish an email (he just wanted my attention, he hates if I do anything other than concentrate purely on him) I got really upset about this and said that it was not okay to call me that. His response? Getting angry and yelling that I was a f…ing foreigner and that I had better accept that in his country (the UK, where we live) this was totally normal and if I didn’t like it I should get the f..ck out and that he has had it with foreigners trying to tell him how to behave in his own country.
And I still haven’t got the guts to leave him. I do wonder if I am indeed crazy…
I am foreigner living in UK and my ex husband was English, he never talked to me in this manner…Your boyfriend’s behaviour is not acceptable, please do something about it! All the best x
Totally, utterly and completely unacceptable for anyone to ever say such a thing to you. In the UK or anywhere else. This is a no-brainer. This is an instance of someone showing you who they are – and it’s a really ugly sight. Run, don’t walk from this misogynist.
dedele,
This sounds scary to me, super aggressive and abusive. If he’s willing to go to that level over you asking him to be patient for a moment, what else is he capable of? Please don’t stick around to find out.
dedele,
Are you dependent on this psychopath? Do you have other friends nearby? Have you been able to talk to anyone in RL (not just on BR, where you get real support, but no one who can be accountable to you)? I’m worried about you. This guy is abusive, and if you are visiting the UK, and are dependent on him for home, finances, visa, etc, then you are all the more vulnerable. I hope that you have someone in RL to talk to!
Dedele,
Please consider very seriously leaving this man. He is abusive and my guess is, it won’t be long before the abuse becomes worse. That you stay there with him tells him you are willing to put up with his abuse. He is controlling and angry. Just leave now and think later. You are at risk of much more harm in my opinion. Please go
This EXACTLY describes a former colleague of mine! She’d go on and on at me in an aggressive way until I snapped and stood up for myself. Then she’d say I was ‘always so over sensitive’. Even when I’d repeat exactly what she said she’d claim she never said it. I used to walk away and she’d follow me!
I wish I’d seen this article at the time, she always made me feel terrible! It’s true, it’s totally their shit and you should not engage.
I was always told bullshit baffles brains,even more so by my ex. He continually pulled out non sensical arguments like ‘the philosophy of truth’to stop me in my tracks when the relationship breaks down. The sad thing is that if you’re in a crumby relationship too long you can start playing the victim card in life as it has such a big effect on one’s sense of self.
I was able to walk away from these ‘nonsense’ relationships and rebuild who I am & my personal boundaries thanks to you Natalie. Thank you for teaching me not to waste time trying to understand the content of the male equivalent of fast food- over processed, cheap,full of unnecessary ingredients, little shelf life and always dissapointing. Don’t ever go back to a Mr Unavailable – like fast food they rely on advertising misleading projections of themselves so that they can keep a foot in the door of your life. Don’t attempt to make sense out of nonsense. Your time on this earth is too valuable!!!
Grace1 I love this analogy. Spot on!
Natalie, you are spot on again, thank you!
“Don’t try to make sense out of nonsense”…what you described in your post, so similar of my situation with AC 2, who I gave first/last chance. He made me feel guilty and he was a “victim” who was misunderstood blah blah blah!
Ha.. OK, he can stay a victim, it is NOT MY CONCERN anymore, I am too busy doing my own things:)
It’s 2am where I am. I just woke up in the middle of the night smh at an exchange w a woman like this this past weekend and my attempt to rebuff earlier this evening. (Posters have been localizing this to men… It’s not just men!)
Anyway, being a reflective person I naturally check myself. Somehow ppl like this have no need for that check or their perspective is so skewed it all makes sense to them. This by no means requires me to agree to their version of events or continue to go along for the trip.
Thanks Nat for the sanity check/ confirmation. I’m pulling the emergency stop cord on this runaway train…(n I’m going back to sleep!)
Mumble mumble losing sleep over crazy mumble mumble keep your crazy to yourself mumble. Nighty night y’all.
2fearce,
Damn straight it’s not just men. As a matter of fact, I’ve had this problem more with females in my life than males. Of course, that’s just my personal experience talking, for whatever that’s worth in the grand scheme of things.
I hope you had a good restful sleep and didn’t waste any more moments staring at the ceiling for this chick. Don’t enter the “land of crazy.” It’s not a nice place.
Perfect timing to receive this! Thanks NML! My EUM ex dumped me when I fell pregnant, and hooked up with another gf straight away… reset button! He ignored me for 2 months, when I sent him updates on the baby. He showed zero interest (hasn’t asked once how the baby is) in me or his unborn offspring.
Finally when I got him to come to the ultrasound scan, he smelled of booze, took cannabis in the hospital toilets and even offered me some as if he was proud of it (!), and all he was worried about was telling the new gf that I was pregnant as he’d avoided doing so for the 6 weeks they’d been together. He couldn’t care less about hearing the baby’s heartbeat and seeing our little one on the monitor for the first time.
Thanks to this blog, I put down my boundary after that. His behaviour was causing so much stress for me and the little one. I let him go mentally, said it wasn’t a good idea to meet up again, and went no contact, feeling better and calmer than I have done for a couple of months.
Three weeks later (yesterday) he’s now sending me an angry email saying there are things he needs to say and points to needs to make about “all this” but “in the nicest possible way” and we have to meet up, or it’ll get worse the longer we leave it. I can feel my stress levels rising – but I realise now this is all about HIM and his trying to control the situation / not taking responsibility / playing the victim. THANK YOU for this article.
Oh, and the other thing, is all the communication (except the ultrasound appointment) has been via text and email – he never once called me during our 5 month relationship.
I am sorry my child won’t have a better dad, but I don’t expect him to be around anyway.
Heya bump
Take it from someone who knows – being a single mother is hard but it’s a helluva lot easier than being a single mother AND having to deal with some self-centred arse as a sideline. You’re doing the right thing and marvellous thing (one of the many) about having a baby is that it really focuses your mind on what you DON’T want in a man.
If you do meet up with him, for whatever reason (and it’s a difficult and sticky position to be in with the whole parenthood business) then always always make sure that there is someone else with you, on YOUR side. I really wish that in my situation I’d refused to deal with him alone and always had the support of someone with a lower bullsh!t tolerance there as backup.
And rally everyone you know to make a fuss of you while you have the baby.
meandthebump,
Good for you for going no contact for you and your “bump” (love that :)). It shows that you are aware that now more than ever you need to keep yourself undisturbed and in peace as much as possible.
By the way, another poster on here, Yoghurt, is in the same situation as you. Have you read her stellar comments in the past? If not, it might be helpful to you to go through past posts and read her comments. She has a lot of good suggestions. 🙂
All the best to you and the bambina/bambino. 🙂
Jinx!
Aw, love you rev xx Moving house atm and no internet but I’ll be back…!
Credit where it’s due, love. 🙂
Thanks Yoghurt and Revolution. I searched for some of Yoghurt’s previous postings – so sorry to read your circumstances too – but they’ll help me prepare mentally to be strong. I think in the bigger scheme of things, I am fortunate to have found out my ex’s true colours well before the baby is born, so I can plan to do this on my own with family and real friends.
It is amazing how my situation has shone a spotlight on the worst character of my EUM ex(we actually had a previous preg and miscarriage just 10 days before this conception, so this is a freak conception and a miracle baby – the lack of care my EUM showed me during the miscarriage showed his true nature, while I was in agony, he just sent me a “how’re you?” text, no phonecall, no care. He dumped me immediately after the m/c, not caring I was pregnant again). I am at least thankful to see how he behaved under pressure, so I can let go of the fantasy and betting on potential I was holding on to. He emails about being friends, I guess so he can feel better about himself, but his lack of involvement and concern and his immaturity and residual anger towards me in the first part of this pregnancy are so alien to the concept of friendship, I have become stronger and seen his behaviour for what it is. Rather than be jealous of the girl he replaced me with, I am sure he’s exhibiting the same EU behaviour and so I can leave them to it and recognise that he is the one who’ll miss out on the joy of his first-born child – thank god I don’t have to give him parental responsibility on the birth certificate, I am grateful for small mercies!x
meandthebump;
such a cute name. Thank goodness it’s not “meandtheBUM” because if you were with this guy, that is what your life would be. You sound very sweet and amazingly calm and brave for the crap you going through with him. He sounds like a disgusting nightmare and not someone you want around your child. It is sad, and eventually you child may want him in his or her life and wonder about why Dad isn’t around. If he isn’t be sure to always let that little angel know…it’s not their fault. Best of luck to you bump. 🙂
Thank you NCC for your kind words x
lol
You just described the ex-wife of 16 years of marriage and the last girl friend I had.
Professionals estimate 20% of the population can be diagnosed as insane. Some say that figure is too low. I found because I grew up in a dysfunctional home, I will take a lot of crap others would naturally run from. I am learning to run though.
Thanks Nat. Love your work. Your blogs allow people to see that it isn’t only them. Others have had this happen to them too.
Holy shit, only 20%??
🙂
Well, even if only 4% are personality disordered, I’m sure each of them drives at least five others crazy! Even if I’m being only half-serious here I think there is some truth to this.
In my own family of origin there was not one single sane person to be found, as far as I can remember (except for my aunt who went NC as well I think). I think this is no surprise with (I think) three narcissists in the family. I believe that the narcissists’ craziness rubs off on anybody who stays around voluntarily for an extended period of time.
Of course there might be other types of “insanity” as well (which are related neither to narcissists nor to their victims).
I think I actually know most of that 20%… 🙂
Gosh this brought back thoughts of the ex eum/narc who brought me here. The first time we slept together was about 2 months after we met. At this point I was still on a pedestal, he had never met anyone like me, couldn’t believe how perfect I was, yada yada. The next day we had a lovely day together, and I must have made some comment about how I would see him in about a week, when I was to accompany him to one of his many hospital appts. Well, on his way home, he texted me saying it was a good job he wasn;t oversensitive after what I had said to him.
I was totally perplexed and called him, really worried that I had upset him and anxious to put it right.He came up with all this BS about how we had just taken our relationship to the next level and how discarded he felt after our intimacy when I said I would just “See ya next week.” It was just mind boggling because he made it sound like I had rolled over, lit a fag and asked him to get out. In fact we had spent a lovely day together, walking on the beach, having lunch out etc etc. I didn’t get it at the time, but this was just the beginning of him gaslighting me and making various things I sad that were honestly as normal as hell, offensive or upsetting to him.He wanted to create the drama and make himself the victim. I always ended up apologizing but secretly thinking “what the hell?” I was crazy about this man and would never have said anything to annoy him. I thought he was the bees knees. Unfortunately so did he!
Tabitha, it brought up many memories for me too from when I dated AC number one.
I hated having to comb through every single action looking for clues as to why he had taken such offence to what I had done. Usually nothing or something so minute you would never have guessed in a million years which could have caused such offence to them.
It is an awful, horrible way to live.
I remember one time absolutely begging to be told what I had done wrong you’d have thought I’d deliberately run over his dog, but no it was because when we had dinner with his friends I hadn’t spoken enough and joined in a particular conversation, errrr hello you were talking about people I didn’t know and had never met.
I once had a boyfriend who practically had me drawn and quartered because I hadn’t given him a surprise party for his birthday. Honestly, he had NEVER even told me wanted one, he figured I would just “know” because he had left his address book out so I would get the “hint” to contact all his friends. I prepared a really lovely dinner just for the two of us, which he sulked through with a face like a thundercloud. And I remember how I groveled and begged for his forgiveness. This was 25 years ago, but I still cringe at the thought. UGH! Thank God I wasn’t with this guy for long. Never again!
Another fantastic, helpful and relevant article…and enjoy reading everyones responses too….filled with great insight …..And I am not sure why, but the right article is always up here at the right time. Funny how life works like that 🙂
Ive had to learn again and again that it is all about opting out of those little dramas again..and slaying the dragon while it is small and seeing nonsense for what it is and how they do it to meet a need.
I have recently had a friend who is a “certified victim”.he is good at it, had many years of practice..To him, it is everyone elses fault but his own, even the fact that he weighs over 220kilos is everyone else’s fault rather than the fact he chooses to eat so much in response to his victimised thinking where he doesnt want to see his part in many situations. And He chooses a whole bunch of friends around him who support him in staying that way and give him a whole lot of “Oh poor you’s” and after seeing them he feels better and goes..”Oh poor me”
However at times He gets annoyed talking with me because I try to understand and point out the good things and how he can make things ok in his life..but he doesnt want to hear that. I found overall I have had to keep my distance or it can be easy to be dragged down rather than stay in a self-responsibility consciousness…
However recently i have asked him to stop calling and texting me altogether (due to him continually overstepping my boundaries) and when he does call all he does is talk about himself and it is only when it suits him.But it took a bit of a shake up up for me to see that I needed to step away further from this dynamic and receiving any nonsense.
I recently went into emergency (hospital 5 times) and as dramatic as it sounds and it felt scary at the time, i feel certain we are all able to heal ourselves.. and any imbalance is an opportunity to see where our thinking may not be self-loving or where our energy could be made more whole..) When I was in hospital my friend knew about it and was nowhere to be seen, and my being unwell was just an inconvenience to him and something else for him to feel “victimized ” about…He was happier avoiding me and saying “my friend may die, poor me,look what shes doing to me, I better go and eat more food”.And when I was laying in the hospital feeling scared about what was happening yet getting a random call here and there from him when it was suitable to him and he only wanted to talk about himself..did not feel ok to me anymore.
SOmetimes it takes shake ups in life to clean more of my own path up.And make new choices. And I feel we all deserve an equal friendships. Sure these are times of more give and take but overall it is still healthy. And I need to keep pulling myself in line with the boundaries…He complained how much money it would cost him to drive to the hospital..yet he was driving around to spend time with other friends (he has plenty of money so it was an excuse)
. I let him know to please not call me and give me space but he has ignored what I have asked 5 times and continues to do as he wants and keeps acting like we are friends and calling and texting and playing “Mr nice guy ” (giving crumbs )as though I was just “ill” and having “a moment” when I asked him to please not call me …. and my only solution now has been to ignore the phone and stay calm with understanding as to why he does it.
.
overall..it made me remember what I learned on here that our actions teach our boundaries..ANd I need to keep pulling myself in line and remembering the 12 basic boundaries for all relationships and to not be harsh on myself for making mistakes at times…and whatever nonsense anyone can twist and turn things into or put onto us… that ultimatly our actions teach what we will or not tolerate…with a forgiving heart. And how it is loving for us to not allow others hurt or neglect us in anyway. And everything is a learning experience to grow stronger in our own self love and ability to be loving. This was a good article to remember to step back and see the truth of a matter and act with self love, grounded in what feels good for us.
Thank you for the great article…and the wonderful responses.
Best wishes
This is perfect timing for me right now ….. And after 3 years of being on receiving end of *€*$*€ – I changed my number – do it everyone it’s the only way! thx Natalie xxx
Pretty good stuff Natalie – as always! The physical aspect of any relationship can become intoxicating. In the midst of that, it’s difficult to focus on the fact that the guy is not treating you well. I love your analogy to “crumbs”. That really keeps me striving for the best in life.
Thumbs up for you Natalie…so brilliant
It’s like you have been a fly on the wall in my life, another amazing article that helps me realise I’m not no 22 crazy psycho ex! Its true of my ex husband and ex AC, no matter what you say and how you say it you will ALWAYS be wrong, it’s really not worth the effort or losing your sanity, just walk away!
@ mendthebump; I had the same with my exAC, when he found out I was pregnant he told me to cut it out like you would blades of grass!!! And yet to my utter disbelif when I lost the baby and he started emailing and saying how sorry he was etc, I beleived him and took him back, he didn’t change, he just got worse, I had given him a green light to continue in his shady behaviour. Walking away was the best thing I could have done for myself, we all deserve to be loved fully not in the half hearted way these guys have to offer. I am a single mum and yes, its hard but you can do it and it will make you stronger! Get a good support network around you, make use of your family,friends, this is when you will need them the most. Sending you mental hugs x
Thanks Sammie! Great to hear you’ve made it work and being a good mum. I feel so loved by family and friends, who’ve all consistently said I’m better off without him. It’s been a learning curve to understand what the mind games and switcheroos really are, that it’s not something I can fix or feel guilty about. Now I just got to think of my little one, and focus the love on him/her
This article resonates with me on so many levels. It reminds me of my Ass Clown ex, but I have discovered that friends can be just as big an Ass Clown. My ‘friend’ — friend is in air quotes because I’m starting to redefine what our friendship is with his latest attempts at playing victim and making me the bad guy for his feelings of inadequacies that had been in existence longer than I have been in his life.
Natalie, you neglected to mention the ‘victims’ callous response to you when you do say ‘no’ or let them know that you won’t fall for their childish, temper tantrums in the form of the ever popular, ‘passive aggressive’ behaviour. This includes, ignoring all of your text messages/voicemails/emails/air messages/messages by pigeon, etc. and when you call them on it, it is met with a casual response of, “oh, I was busy” and my favourite, “you should know why I’m mad at you”. Really?
My friend has gone as far as delete me off his Facebook list without my knowledge because I had somehow done him wrong for not chasing after him fast enough after an argument that he started and chose to run away from in the first place.
Why am I friends with him, some of you may ask? Well, we have common friends and I will see him regardless, but I’ve certainly learned to keep him at bay and only choose to
see him when there are get together with friends.
Thanks NML for your years of dedication to the site. You have helped me re-introduce me to self-esteem and values – my 2 best friends 🙂
Mike
OMG this is my ex husband to a “T” and this is one of the reasons we are not married anymore. He could be 100% wrong and I could be 100% right and somehow he would manage to turn it around and make me the one in the wrong.Or you would try to argue your point and no matter what you said you couln’t win with him so you would get so frustrated you would give up even though you knew you were right.I don’t know how many times we went through this drill til I finally gave up and withdrew emotionally because I knew trying to talk to him rationally was a losing battle. So in essence I stopped talking to him altogether and whenever he asked what was wrong i gave him my “pat” answer, “nothing.” Of course after we got divorced he turned it on me and said one of the reasons we got divorced was because I wouldnt communicate with him. Really? Like you ever listened to what I had to say? If you really want to know how bad it was, one time when I was trying to express my opinion he even went so far to to put his hand over my mouth to keep me from talking and another time he acted like an infantile making “LALALLAlLa” sounds to sound me out. I cringe when I think of the stuff I put up with from him. I’m a grown woman and he treated me like a child. What really hurts is that my daughter was exposed to all this growing up. I just pray to God she doesn’t think that’s how men are suppose to treat women. I finally got brave and chose to keep my sanity what little I had left and opt out of the toxic marriage. I really feel sorry for his next victim. But maybe they will have a backbone and not back down from him. I was a spineless jellyfish who was afraid of him cus he would get right in my face and intimidate me and he knew I was scared of him. But like my daughter says, what’s the worst thing he can do to you-hit you? It only hurts for a little while. Yeah the physical pain may hurt temporarily but the internal scars will be there forever. Ladies trust me on this-someone who acts like this is not normal-run run run as fast and as far away as you can.
Hi Buff. Sorry to say but your daughter is probably to young to know and understand that physical abuse only escalates. He can progress to killing you, and that only takes one time. I’m very glad you got out and will no longer be exposing her to his excessively disrespectful treatment of you. You must reinforce to her regularly that that was not normal. Hopeful her view of marriage won’t be too distorted. All the best, Tink
Hey Tink acutually my daughter just turned 18 so she knows what is going on. I made her promise me that she wont marry anyone like her dad. Another gem he used to pull on me was blaming me for his vile reactions to my wanting to discuss things by telling me “I was poking the snake” and therefore was the cause of his irrational assine vile behavior. It was always my fault. And apolgize-never. I never once heard him admit he was wrong. It was always somoneelse’s fault that he acted the way the did. well i hate to tell you but you reap what you sow but he could never see that. He was always the “victim”. Poor me blah blah blah. It gets old after a while. He was the most toxic person I have ever known. He has no idea what a loving respectful relationship is . It’s always all about him. I have always summed him up as a selfish, self-centererd SOB!My daughter has a pretty good head on her shoulders and we talk all the time about what is acceptable and what is not and the poor thing says she never wants to get married and she doesn’t have a boyfriend because she is afraid to trust men. She knows their words and actions don’t match just from watching and listening to her dad. Instead of being an example for her he’s been a detriment. she even told me that at 54 he’s most immature and infantile than her-that’s pretty bad. But i guess some men never grow up. We ladies need to be vigilant and be strong together and get away and stay away from these toxic toxic people. Be strong.
Buff,
My daughter is in a marriage that just doesn’t work. They both are afraid of leaving the other. It’s a mutual dependency I don’t understand. My grandson who is now 16 yrs old has been exposed to their fights (verbal and physical), long periods of not speaking, etc. ever since he can remember. Even though my daughter has the talks with him and reinforces that this is not what a healthy marriage is supposed to be, he has stated repeatedly that he is never getting married. It’s so painful because he is such a good kid and everyone loves him. I’m hoping he will change eventually. But when kids witness constant fighting amongst their parents it is going to impact them negatively and we don’t know how much until it is too late to steer them in another direction. Thanks for sharing. Yes, we ladies need to be strong. We have too much to deal with without being mistreated by an AC husband, boyfriend, etc.
My my….I have spent the last three weeks getting pity party text and emails from the AC about how he’s in depression, practicing celibacy, going to spend more time alone and with his kids, and what an awful person he is….blah, blah. I spent 3 hours at his house one night watching him sit at a table sighing and giving sad, puppy dog looks, yet wouldn’t tell me what was troubling him. It was like watching paint dry! And the reason he couldn’t “talk about it” is because I’m pretty sure there was nothing to talk about. My guess is that he tangled with the wrong girl and she told him what she thought about him. It probably made him feel bad about himself for…oh let’s see…a minute or two. Then he remembered he could use it to his benefit, which he did with me.
I tried to be the caring friend because I still think he considers me special. Well…shouldn’t I have known better.
When I told him that he has always been proud of not being monogamous, he was immediately defensive that I used the word “proud.” And when I told him that I used to pass another girl on the road that he had just slept with when I was on my way to his house to spend the night. His response “Did you find that degrading?” And then the next day he called and said “I think you are in a weak moment. You still need me. And I am so sorry that you had to experience passing another lover of mine on the road. I am not a nice person.”
I just want to throw up when I think of what I allow him to do. And I want to throw up because I don’t know how to let go.
I know…same old story from me. It is crazy-making….he always comes out looking like the victim and has a way of making everyone say “poor guy…he’s so nice.”
Nancy – your guy sounds sadistic. Any normal person would react to the idea that a loved one had felt “degraded” (his word) by their behaviour with horror.
There are people out there who are amused by the suffering of others. Get away from this man. He shames you in order to keep you from walking.
Catching up on BR from the Peg, MB. Finally, this is my ex-roomie described! One time I said to her, after she’d cut me down with a short, withering sentence (always for me expressing myself with anything other than her positivity) and I took a short pause of feeling shamed and confused, “That was pretty rude.” And she responded with, “Yes, you were pretty rude.”
So many times she had me wondering whether I knew how to behave properly.
Another time, when I called her out on having snuck around and lied to me, she turned it around immediately that I was ‘insensitive’ and ‘should know’ that she didn’t want to hang out with me and it was ‘rude’ of me to put her on the spot by reminding her that she had in fact invited me to hang out. Apparently I should have known she was insincere, i.e., to her, “just being polite.”
Really, the way Natalie describes it, this behaviour isn’t much more than a grown-up version of “I know you are but what am I?”!
Great post NML. As usual, you’ve articulated so well what so many of us experience everyday. One question though: I’ve had the crazy-making experience several times with my EUM and I finally passed my humiliation threshold and dumped him. Normally, his reaction has been exactly what you described in your post. But the last time, his reaction was quite different. Instead of turning the argument back on me and becoming the victim, he got quiet and had a disturbingly blank look on his face – with no expression but with wide, non-blinking eyes staring right at me. It was almost like I was his mommy and he was a 5 year old caught with his hand in the cookie jar. This highly articulate, successful, wealthy businessman was speechless. When I asked him if he denied anything I’d accused him of, he said no. When I asked if he had anything to say, his response was only “What am I supposed to say?”
My question to you is this: Have you ever seen an EUM just clam up like I’ve described? In a way, it might be a form of morphing into victimhood in that he immediately took on the personna of a small child. Truth be told, I feel he’s got Borderline Personality Disorder traits and quite possibly hasn’t matured emotionally beyond the 5 year old stage.
I’d love to have your comments on the EUM who turns ‘silent victim’ when confronted with his crazy-making. (By the way, his version of crazy-making was hooking up with other women and making up bald-faced lies to me to explain his absences. Sheeesssss……)
Thanks!!!
PS: I’m in day 2 of ‘no-contact’ with him and feeling fairly strong, thanks in part to your posts. You’re the best!
I’ve seen that before. Privately I think of it as the “reptile look.” It’s that moment when the EUM’s eyes go blank and it’s like there’s nothing in there to talk to, any more than you could communicate with a lizard or a turtle. Quite chilling to observe.
Diamondgirl, I’ve experienced that wide-eyed, non-blinking, expressionless response from a truly deranged abusive ex from many years ago. It was when I was at the end of my rope, done trying, and on my way out the door after a crazy-making year or so, long past my humiliation threshold. I remember thinking, ah gottcha finally. I’m not the crazy one, you are…I probably said something like that!
There’s simply no way to make sense of pathological nonsense as Nat suggests. That’s the role of a therapist, not a girlfriend, wife, partner or friend. Who cares what that deer in the headlights look means. It’s probably nothing more than straight up denial and they have hit their mental delete button. Which again turns it back to you IF you spend time trying to analyze HIM and his erratic, pathological, nonsensical responses.
Stay strong Diamondgirl. Whatever you do, stay NC, and block the MF ASAP. Get as far away from him mentally, physically, and emotionally as quickly as possible. Every day away will start to become like a breath of fresh air.
My narc mother does this. It is her reptile/snake look. She is as toxic as a venomous snake. It makes me feel sick to look at her like that.
Yep, I’ve seen it too. It is like a reptile defense tactic, freeze, and just see what happens, I think. And yeah, I definitely agree about the emotional immaturity and perhaps it is them reverting to some emotional state of childhood.
Both of my exes would get the eerie silent stare when confronted with facts about their behaviour and I never knew how to react, it really is unnerving.
@Diamond: I think it can depend on the person as well – the person I knew was sort of a very functional AC. A few times I caught him at it. I think the AC situation works as long as you are hooked – the moment you step out of it, the situation dissolves. Laugh, have a sense of humor and he would never get to you – unfortunately after being with someone like this for a while you lose your perspective. Humor becomes bitter so it too stops working.
When I had the experience, I think the AC (or maybe the passive-aggressive gaslighter might be most accurate – is that an AC?) said two things within 5 mins of each other which were totally contradictory (and both of which accused me of the same thing with different interpretations – I dont remember exactly but it was along the lines of – ‘you think x of me, so you are bad’ and then ‘you think x of me, so you are right’). And I pointed it out to him – and for once he didnt play dumb or accuse me of being too analytical or whatever. It immediately broke the tension and he became almost sheepish and he said ‘youre right, I’m bs-ing’.
They are AC, but some part of them is human too – after all, their friends often think they are human.
And btw, we’re missing the point of the post – dont try to make sense out of nonsense!!! Him clamming up = who the f cares!! Does he treat you nice? Does he make you happy? No? Moving along then…You’ve dumped him, now you need to relearn how to deal with yourself without all the stress of him, and how to recognize AC behavior without being hooked…
I’m not so sure this shows their “human” side. I’ve been exposed to a lot of weird behavior by personality disordered people. I think that’s inavoidable if you grow up with a narcissistic mother. Anyway, I think they wear a particular “mask” with each of their victims, but sometimes they forget which mask to wear with whom. This is what creates those “WTF” moments. Sometimes they totally seem to forget which role to play and this might lead to that wide-eyed, non-blinking, expressionless response (according to my personal theory). Yeah, there is truly something “off” with their brains, and I think it gets worse with age, but unfortunately that doesn’t make them any less toxic.
In the end it is irrelevant whether they clam up or throw tantrums. They are toxic. Full stop.
Your are right on both fronts. You are right about the ACs having a “Matrix” moment, forgetting which mask to wear, and you are right that it is not our job to figure this out. The last time I spent any significant time with the exMM, I invested too much in trying to figure out if he was seeing someone new. He said contradictory things. After spending way too much time trying to make sense of the contradictions, and even having tortured thoughts of “if he’s lying to me, then that means he still cares about my feelings”, I realized, wait a minute. he is still lying to me. That’s crap behavior. My real friends don’t lie to me. My real friends don’t act in ways that could hurt me, which would lead them to want to lie. Time to move on.
@purplelily
Yes I’m from Oz 🙂 and so happy I have found this website. It started off as me desperately trying to find a way to get over my ex about a year ago but as the fog has lifted I’m seeing problems with other relationships and I know I need to change something as I am the common denominator in these failed relationships.
The worst thing is now that I am back home with them (temporarily) but they beg and beg for me to stay so they can keep a foot in my life. I moved out when I was 21 and they have guilted me into coming back home so many times promising me things would be different and they would allow me my freedom. Plus financially I was struggling after an ex eum and they took this to their advantage and that they would “look after me” (control me)
Needless to say that hasn’t happen. Things are fine for a few months and then they can’t help up and they start again. I know I need to put my money where my mouth is and stay away for good it’s not good for my self esteem.
Thanks for your encouragement and yes it is hard breaking and it has been hard but lessons have been learnt along the way – I think they just have a hard time letting go but we must carry on with our own lives and do what makes us happy.
Nat thank you, you have inspired me to change my life I’m not there yet but i’m learning
Wow, this article fits my ex-husband perfectly!He is very manipulative and pullls this kind of stuff on me whenever he doesn’t get what he wants…even at the expense of our daughter, which is just sad.
This was my past dating relationships in a nutshell. The same men, just different faces…
For instance, now that I am dating healthy men years later and after a lot of healing, with my new boyfriend – I was scared to bring up something that was bothering me because of my past experiences, thinking that he may turn things around on me, make me feel like I was the crazy one, etc… but what a world of a difference. He actually sought to understand and honor my feelings and want to make things work. Now that I know that he does respect my feelings and thoughts, I won’t hesistate next time to talk to him if need be.
Hi Gina. I know exactly what you mean. I’ve been reluctant to say certain things to my boyfriend also. Not stuff that is/was bothering me but just opinions. We are both very talkative and we’re both more opinionated than not. And, I haven’t much experience with crazy-makers, but I think you can feel that way when you’re not used to feeling valued for who you are. IMO, a relationship that is viable permits mutual verbal expression. We should not feel as though we have to censor our views and communication.
It’s a strange and wonderful feeling, isn’t it, to actually date a man who listens and tries to see your point of view after dating men who only care about their own. I’m experiencing the same think right now. Even though I know he’s difference it’s just a knee jerk reaction to keep my feeings to myself.
With crazy-making people, they are the only ones who win. It’s a losing battle for you, the non-crazy-maker. Just get the hell out of dodge. Been there, done that, getting much better at recognising it & running like Forrest.
Great article. I couldn’t have put it better myself. This is a stunt that people with borderline personality disorder pull on the regular. I had the unfortunate past friendship with a woman who did this alot with not only me but others. Needless to say she lost a lot of friendships including mine because of her shenanigans. You so hit the mail on the head with everything you said ! Bravo!
Has she been diagnosed this by a psychiatrist, clinical psychologist or any other mental health professional?
Revolution,
I got back to sleep n it was gd sleep too (the kind where u wake up w wrinkles/ welts on ur face n arms lol).
I wasn’t trying to go to crazy land… I wasn’t even planning to visit! Crazy enuf tho I find myself missing my interactions w her…yeah, I really gotta get out more!
Anybody know where the sane, actively working on making themselves better ppl hang out??? I seem to kp missing the meeting… train…. bus… whatever it is I kp missing it.
They hang out on BR!!! Seriously, if you want to meet people who are up for working on themselves then taking up some kind of study is a good place to start. It builds your self esteem and enables you to meet a mix of people you wouldn’t otherwise meet in an environment where there are no overwhelming expectations. Even if there is nobody there you fancy, there may be someone who becomes a friend, or who has a relative or friend that might be up your street.
I couldn’t agree more with Tabitha, 2fearce. Look for people who have a pattern of taking responsibility for themselves and their life choices.
Glad to hear you had “wrinkle-making” sleep, lol. That cracked me up because I totally know what you’re talking about. 🙂
My ex tried to make me think I was insecure and ridiculous because after a year of dating I discovered he was developing and maintaining “friendships”, (texting, emailing) with women he met on line at the same time I met him…”There was never any romantic interest in them on my part. You should trust me.” When I told him that was totally unacceptable to me, he did not try to make me feel better or reassure me. He simply said, “I need to rethink things. Take care.” That was six months ago. I did not contact him one time. He knows through his sister that I am and have been in a relationship for awhile now. He said, “I want to be respectful of your relationship (then why are you calling me????) But I hope that if you break up you will call me.” I said, well, that’s very flattering, but when I started dating you, you knew what I was looking for. I’m looking for a man who doesn’t want to live without me. I’m looking for the man who doesn’t even want to try living without me. I said, you knew that. He goes, “to be honest I thought you would fight a little harder for me.” I didn’t say a word when he told me to “take care.” I just let him go. I said, well, honestly, I don’t want to be with someone who needs their mind changed about wanting to be in a relationship with me….that’s not what i want. He was being totally selfish and looking for more ego strokes just like he was getting from his harem. I told him when we broke up i had no intention of being part of a cheerleading squad, even if i was the captain. I missed him at first. As soon as one of my friends wanted to fix me up, I said yes, even though I was still sad. I powered through it and I am much better off. He’s the one who’s sorry. Just like I knew he would be. They don’t seem to “get” that when they want to “take time to think” that you get to do the same thing. And they never think what you realize is going to be that you are better off without them.
dcd568,
Love what you wrote. I wish more of us could be as direct in voicing what we want AND STICK TO IT. I applaud your refusal to accept crumbs.
Thank you Tinkerbell. I have gained 100% of my strength and wisdom from this site and Rori Raye’s site as well. Even if it takes me a little longer to do what I know I need to do in order to be happy and find a great relationship, I will do it. And I find that with each “not quite right” relationship it takes me a little less time to get out because I am actually practicing what Nat and Rori preach. I do not intend to go backwards.
Ha! Sounds familiar.
A man I was in a long term relationship with was constantly texting with a female friend from real life.
While he was overseas for work, she sent him pictures of herself in provocative stances and tank tops and stuff. I found the pictures later. When I confronted him, I got a response very similar to yours – all about my self esteem, my lack of maturity and understanding, and that it is my fault I will never forgive him for these things.
My ex was a colonel in the US Army and was getting deployed for a year (which ended up being changed and he was not deployed)….No way was I going to share what little time he had to email with ANYONE else. FTS…
Had I known he was “innocently” texting and emailing with ANYONE else, I would have ended it right then. He knew that. I said, if you didn’t think you were doing anything wrong, why didn’t you tell me you were doing it?….no response. He knew what he was doing was shady…he knew I would not accept it and he basically lied by omission. I’m not having that kind of relationship. He knew from the very beginning that I was not a person who shared my man in any way shape or form. I told him that in the beginning with those very words.
“I don’t want to be with someone who needs their mind changed about wanting to be in a relationship with me.”
That was an amazing comeback, dcd568!
I hate it when they make these gestures that go clearly in one direction – for example: disappearing, putting distance, going cold, whatever – and when you react consistently (that is: leave them well alone) they come later claiming you should have “fought harder” or made more contact or shown more “interest”, etc. If they want more attention from you, why not ask for it directly, instead of resorting to contradictory messages? How am I to know what goes on inside your head? It’s nonsense, and you are right in refusing to engage in further nonsense!
I had a guy tell me I was too guarded and he could never tell how I felt or if wanted to spend time with him, so I clarified and said I liked him and wanted to spend more time with him. He did a turn around and said he felt crowded. I felt set up. With some people, you can’t win.
I knew what was going on in his head when I found this information out and put two and two together…he was keeping these “internet connections” interested in case anything happened to us. If it did, he had a bunch of lines in the “prospect pond” and all he had to do was pull one out….Not on my watch…
ick. They want to be “fought over” but they won’t for something themselves. Little boys.
Awesome!!! I am amazed at how perfectly you handled his half assed interest and playing games trying to get you to fall on your knees before him. He would’ve turned you into a spineless doormat if he was able to, that was just the first step. You stood up, moved along and powered through it and you even got the pleasure of telling him all about himself in a respectful yet very eye opening and matter of fact way.. good for you!!
I want to be you lol… take care and best of luck to you in your new relationship! You definitely have what it takes to be in something good for you 🙂
Thanks Bob72. He was a colonel in the US Army…not used to being told what was going to happen…used to being the “teller.” He was so indignant when I told him I wasn’t going to tolerate this behavior.
After about a month of dating, we both agreed to be mutually exclusive and that we wanted to see if our relationship would lead to marriage. That is what I’m looking for. That’s what we BOTH said we were looking for. I am 49 years old, so is he. I conducted myself with integrity throughout the entire relationship. There is nothing I would have changed about my behavior. The only thing I would have done differently is that had I known what he was doing, I would have left sooner. I felt deceived and disrespected.
He had been divorced for only a year when we started dating after being married for 25 years. I told him I wondered if it was a good idea to get involved with him because I was pretty sure he had some emotional work to do. He assured me he had done the work, he had dated enough women since his divorce to know exactly what he wanted and I was that person. He convinced me and I think himself as well. I should have listened to my instinct. A couple of months in he got “confused” as to if wanted to date only me….I said well, I hate that you feel that way, but if you want to date other women, you are free to do. I will not be seeing you anymore though. I do not share. I also told him that I have been single for a long time and that the most important thing dating showed me was what I did NOT want in a man. I told him he would end up hurting people and being hurt, but that I thought he should go on and experience it for himself. I said, after you’ve been out there awhile, you’ll be back. But guess, what I may not be available. He did not let me go at that time. We had ups and downs throughout…him pushing and pulling, wanting to see what he was missing on the other side….
A year later we break up, six months later “I made a mistake. I’ve been on dates, but haven’t found anyone I want a relationship with. I know you are in a relationship and I want to be respectful…(so not true…you regret losing me and you want me to know it. Mind F…ery is not respectful) so if it doesn’t work out, please call me.”
By the way, after he told me to take care, I immediately defriended him on Facebook and deleted his number from my phone. I couldn’t stand seeing his “I’m at the gym working hard. Let’s roll” updates every day. And where I used to be so proud of him when he Facebooked about how proud he was to be in the Army and how patriotic he was seemed self-serving and like he was just trying to get ego strokes from women.
I don’t want a man who is so insecure he uses the Army as a front for attention.
Trying to make sense out of nonsense made me go to Australia from U.K..Four times..True.
Ouch 🙁
Dear Natalie,
Thank you for the post! I’m not sure if this is on topic or not, but I’m wondering if you would be willing to consider writing a post on generational conflicts. This has been an issue I’ve been researching quite a bit, recently, as I feel like I’ve been dealing with the same sorts of generational issues over and again, both in my professional and personal life.
It seems like despite my most sincere attempts to get on with people older than I am, I keep running into the same sorts of power struggles with anyone over the age of thirty-five.
For example, my parents and I live in the same small town I grew up in. We’ve historically had a very good relationship, but recently we’ve been having a power struggle over their house (the house I grew up in.) I believe this relates to your topic of crazy-making … it seems like every week my parents have a new rule on when I’m allowed to call/come over, i.e., I’m only allowed to come over after I call first, but two days later, I’m only allowed to come over after I’ve been invited. Recently, they’ve banned me from the house except for practical purposes, such as bringing my laundry over or doing yard work in their gardens. I should add that for the bulk of our twenty-five year relationship, we’ve been exceptionally close, but now that I’ve had some personal and professional achievements, we seem to be engaged in this power struggle. It may seem like a minor detail, but to me, it’s very stressful, as I love and respect my parents and want to regain a cordial relationship with them.
I also think this may have been an issue for me in my past relationships. I usually date men significantly older than myself (by about five-to-ten years) and I wonder if generational issues may have played a role in the deterioration of my last relationship (he was thirty-four and previously married; I was twenty-four).
I believe these generational conflicts may have played out in my professional life as well. At twenty-five, I’m chronologically young, but I’ve worked hard all my life and have achieved something of a career by now. My last professional position was a significant management role and I’m frequently applauded for being nice, polite, and easy to work with. Yet, when I assert myself at work, express justifiable anger or frustration with a coworker or colleague, or perform at an above-average level, I feel that I’m frequently subjected to gas-lighting or crazy-making behavior. Victim-mentality is something I try to avoid, however, I wonder if generational conflict may be playing a role in these scenarios. It’s happened that I’ve had to leave jobs I’ve otherwise enjoyed because the issue with a coworker or manager did not get resolved. It seems like, both personally and professionally, age and seniority seem to take precedence and win out over interpersonal skill or quality work product. Any insights would be much appreciated.
FTOR
Perhaps your parents are putting some boundaries in place – although you grew up there it is their home, now, not yours. Perhaps you should stop taking your laundry home?
As for work conflicts, It may be your managers being unreasonable but if the same issues keep recurring then perhaps you should reconsider your approach and review your interpersonal skills.
One thing to bear in mind, if you get involved in a conflict of some kind, is to consider whether this ONE issue is worth it. Think long term, think strategic. Do you want to be the person who flounces off in a huff every time things don’t go her way, or the person who smiles enigmatically, work hard to implement what’s been decided and continues to be creative and resourceful? You may lose the battle but win longer term.
I have to admit I have a strong cadre of friends that kp me sane but none live in my city or even anywhere close so I spend my time mostly alone. I do enjoy my own company mind u but I also want a partnership and affection that they can’t provide.
When I find women I think have what I need, I find out they are either horribly broken, unwilling to do the work to heal, unaware of their issues, have fidelity issues and/or are assholes. Or most recently all of the above.
I really don’t expect perfection…. but who knew “normal” was so hard to find??
Ironically, the at work AC criticized me last week for a. being down and sad, b. not wanting his help on a committee I chair, c. publically speaking my mind about what it is like to be an older educated woman in this town (ironically at a meeting dealing with how to recruit more women), and d. that I deal with stress/sadness by heading solo into the backcountry. I really wanted to scream “f@#$head, YOU are the reason why I feel this way!” Duh, you treat someone who really cared about you whom you gave the illusion of caring about in turn in a horribly disrespectful and humiliating way, you won’t stay away from her, you make work related promises you have zero intention of keeping, and then have the unmitigated gall to criticize her for being an unhappy camper. Tomorrow is the last day of the semester, I should not have to deal with him till August. Unfortunately, I will be at a meeting with his latest victim next week and will have to answer difficult questions about why I won’t be socializing with the group afterward and generally avoiding her at the meeting the next day. She was a friend who probably does not know what occurred between AC and I. I am soo grateful for BR and all of you here in electron-land. There is also an older, good looking guy that is on this committee that I am chair and although it is nice to converse with him on enviro issues, thanks to BR, I am seeing the same red flags, the same sense of unease that I felt w/ the AC. Something else is going on in his life that he is not being up front about. Ironically, he and AC met last week at a forum we all presented at.
Noquay, can you say you would love to go out after but you have to take one of your critters to the vet?
Keep your spidey senses on potential AC number 2. It is hard to know if we are being over vigilant sometimes isn’t it? I met someone interesting at work recently but I am using BR 100% and slowing my roll. Stopping the fantasising and letting him unfold.
Good luck next week. And enjoy your AC free summer!
Please try not to consider going out with anyone from work or who you might have to work with on a daily basis. I know its hard to meet people elsewhere when most of our adult lives are spent doing work related stuff, but unless you actually get married and live happily ever after, most of us on here – me included – don’t have the proper state of mind to be able to deal with things not working out with someone you will end up seeing all the time. And thats even if everything ended ok lol. If there was any bad crap bappening I couldn’t even imagine how hard it would be to get over. Just be damn sure you can handle the fallout IF things don’t work out.
There’s lots of good people in the world who dont work with you too lol.. and you can use BR just as well out there too and watch, wait, and see what happens.
Sorry, I should have explained myself properly. I met him whilst at work but I do not work with him and will never work with him. I am a college lecturer and he is one of my students (adult I hasten to add) I will be seeing him once a week for the next six weeks in an environment where I know I cannot possibly flirt with him as I would never be that unprofessional. So I get to watch him operating with a group of other students, unfolding in front of me. I think it is pretty ideal myself! It will probably all come to nothing anyway but I thought it is such a controlled environment it would be good practice for my BR knowledge/skills.
Tabitha! He’s one of your students??? Please, oh please, do not, do NOT get involved with one of your students!
To say you’re not completely unprofessional is to say that you’re just a little bit pregnant. I’m sorry for being harsh but look at the reality–HE’S YOUR STUDENT. You could get fired even if he is an adult. It is 100% unprofessional. Don’t worry about his unfolding. Worry about his grades and his comprehension of the materials and subject matter.
Well Tabitha, the good thing is you two develop a relationship in six weeks fast and furiously, (although you should not rush it) you won’t have to continue seeing him if it doesn’t work out. The two of you would be meeting on an uneven teacher student level, so it matters what his career work is. I hope it works for you, but don’t expect too much until he proves to you that you should. Keep us posted. Hugs.
Tabitha, he is not your work colleague-he is your boss. he pays tuition, you perform a service to teach him knowledge and skill to advance his life.
You have power over each other,
not emotional but economic. Be
very careful this is work related. Students and their professors, teachers, mentors, mother figures, father figures a power dynamic to be aware of. Remember our friend Lilly, and me, who could tell you tells about the math professor.
No guys don’t worry, I would not have any contact with him outside of the classroom whilst he is my student. If he is interested it would be easy for him to ask for my number so he could ask for my advice about blah blah blah…. I won’t be pushing my number on him or anything. It is usual for the students and lecturers to go for drinks (no alcohol for me) at the end of the course, when it is completely over, so I will see if he asks for my number then, no biggie. What I was trying to explain, and obviously haven’t made a good job of, is that it is interesting to be in a position where you can observe someone and watch them unfold like this. I have been asked out twice before by male students, after the course was over. One came back whilst I was packing up on the last day, and another used my college email address to contact me. I turned them both down, and I may end up turning this guy down too, even if he is interested, because I may not like what I see as the weeks go on.
Tabitha. Please don’t get involved with someone at work. Very bad idea. Look elsewhere.
Noquay. This is not the first time you’ve mentioned having to see the AC come August. WHY!!!??? Can’t you avoid him? There are few things in life that we absolutely HAVE TO DO. Maybe this should be one of them?
“Am I going crazy?” That’s exactly what I thought when I called some assclown on their BS and they went mental telling me I was the demanding, insensitive, irrational one.
I nearly went crazy and it hurt like hell. How these people are so blind/unconscious about their own actions and life? It is just beyond me.
I do however thank him for this painful lesson. I’ve moved on.
I dated my ex a year and a half. He broke up with me. Said he couldn’t take it all on, but cared about me and loved me so much. It was a huge stuggle, but I stayed friends with him for a year after the break up. During this time (dating and friendship) we had amazing chemistry and lots of similar interests and had fun together. We never consumated our relationship. I noticed we had silly misunderstandings, but lately they became more frequent and I really started to pay attention to the arguments. It all came back to him not really hearing what I said. He made many assumptions and would tell me I’m inferring things. I was trying to make sense out of it all, thinking maybe if I just listen closer or think things through before I open my mouth then the misunderstandings/petty arguments will go away then like a light bulb I realized no matter what I did or what I said he would always question my decisions and opinions, but completely rationalize the hurtful words he’d use and he would never take blame and then he would go one step farther and tell me I was drama, always had to be right, oversensitive…a few days ago I finally stood up for myself and told him I’m happier alone then trying to make the friendship work. I told him he sabotaged everything because of his commitment phobic ways and he is a fool to push away the real deal. He told me I was codependent for staying in as long as I did and said I need serious psychological counseling for my serious issues and told me to stop all contact now! That was a few days ago and I haven’t contacted him. I feel like the things he did and said were projecting his fears and issues as mine…then I read this article. What amazing timing because it feels so good to know I’m not alone and I’m not crazy! Now to greive and move forward and find someone who’s crazy about me and not crazy making me!
Wendy this is a classic! It is exactly as Natalie says. THEY judge YOU for putting up with their rinky dink BS.
You know what you should do? Take his advice and go totally NC. Put all the work you were putting into him and this fake relationshit/friendshit into yourself. Build your self esteem back up and do what you want to do. In a drama free/ambiguity free life. Doesn’t that sound better than the long fog you have been in trying to analyse his behaviour and second guessing yourself? And block him cos he will be back when he runs out of supply/attention elsewhere.
YES. Go totally NC especially when he has told you to do it!
Wow, Natalie!!! Thank you so much!!!
You articulated perfectly the situation with my (now former) roommate! This was a toxic relationship that I couldn’t get out of due to financial reasons and now (thanks to friends) I am free!!! This post blows my mind! Were you there taking notes during our arguments?? She did exactly what you wrote–act as if I were the crazy, out-of-control “problem” roommate when I would get frustrated with yet another accusation while she would insult and disrespect me quite calmly, matter-of-factly, condescendingly. The roommate was nice to me for a few weeks and even said, “I want you to be happy, Rosie. I’ve been nicer to you lately. Have you noticed?” I guess she forgot that she admitted this because a week later she said that I was misunderstanding her and taking things too personally. Once when I was choking on a gigantic mineral supplement, I choked it out into the sink. Roommate asked what happened and I explained. Her response? “Be sure to clean the sink because that’s where we (her daughter and she) put our food.” So…I guess next time I was to clean the sink before calling 9-1-1 when choking??
I did have self-doubts thinking that maybe I am misunderstanding her and maybe I am oversensitive…but when I was at a friend’s house helping her do dishes, I almost dropped a plastic cup and got nervous thinking I was going to be reprimanded and my friend said, “Rosie, relax! It’s just a cup. Why are you so nervous?”
Oh, fun times. Yes, I am sooo glad to be out of that crazy-making mess!
Rosie,
People like that are devils in disguise. They can make you perpetually nervous even when you’re not around them. I’m glad that you’re out of there.
Thank you, Tinkerbell. 🙂 Yes, my friend (the one I helped do dishes) said the same thing as you, almost word for word. This friend, who has had similar experiences in the past, is the one who told me to stop making excuses for these people, just call evil by its name.
She’s a good friend. Keep her, flush him.
By the end of it. I certainly felt like I was crazy. I even remember her looking at me and asking “are you alright?” I had to pause and think about it. Then I realized NO I’m not alright because I literately can’t follow your conversations any longer. I chucked it all up to stress she was going through but in retrospect it feels more like she was just keeping my mind busy with constantly adjusting to her stories. Literately keeping me off balance to buy time to finish her agenda. I think its one thing to tell a white lie… It’s a whole other game to play mind games with someone to the point where you question each others sanity. It’s such a well played game that we get sucked into the cycle of believing and emphasizing with the real crazy ones, THEM. Everyday the stories changed and I typical response was 1. That’s not what I really meant or 2. I thought you knew what I meant. 3. You just don’t understand me. I’m not sure we really get each other.
OMG… Clarity Clarity Clarity is starting to hit me like a rock.
51 days NC
I have to echo all the “wow, Nat: it’s just like you’re in my head” comments. I just wanted to thank you for this post and just about every one you’ve ever written, but certainly the ones you have published this year. They have kept me from going completely insane and succumbing to the nasty desire to beat myself into a figurative pulp for what was essentially a non-relationship going bad. Bloody hell, I was not blameless, but I was not the chameleon standing under the neon bulb, changing colours whenever the wind shifted direction or the moon was in Venus or whatever.
Should I accept it was very normal and healthy to get frustrated (even, gasp, angry) at pitiful crumbs tossed at me and then hastily grabbed back, lather, repeat, rinse? You bet I should! Of course, expressing this frustration was a big no-no and soon the instigator became the victim and I became the nasty, angry bully. Bull-s to that, I say. “Misunderstanding” and “attacking”: spot on, Nat: two of the last words spat out at me by the instigator-turned-victim.
Boundaries and calling a red flag a damned red flag are things I’m furiously working on now. It’s one thing to be “crazy-made” by an alcoholic parent, but be damned if I let anyone sober do that to me again.
Keep up the great work, Nat; they are keeping me and many others on the straight and narrow and keeping my fingers off the keyboard/phone to break N/C.
Top post for me. Thanks Natalie. There’s a bully in my life and I lost sleep last night over her controlling behaviour and blame game. I woke up feeling upset, furious and totally crazy. Lucky I have good enough self esteem. And she’s moving away in the next year (neighbour). This article gave me a boost. Thanks again.
One of the last things I said to the abusive ex was “You’ve changed me, I don’t know who I am anymore.” I said this while I was sobbing, breaking down, and finally reaching the point I knew I could not continue in the madness. He hugged me and listened. He actually seemed like he heard me, really heard me this time, and the crazy making stopped for a moment, which was what I wanted more than anything. For him to understand that he was hurting me. It felt like a break through. The next day we had an argument over his phone ringing and him hiding it so I wouldn’t see who called ( he had cheated on me in the past ). He punched me in the face, knocking me to the ground. We were camping at the time so I couldn’t just leave so I locked myself in the car overnight. Next day he denied it even happened, then hinted that I had asked for it, and the crazy making started again. This was the exact moment I had reached the point of no return. This is when a switch in me turned and the glimmer of ‘hope’ that kept me invested died. Once I decided I had to save myself, I went NC, moved so he couldn’t find me, and never looked back. All the crazy making and insults over four years had changed me though and it took a while to heal and come out of survival mode. A part of me changed permanently from this experience, like that little part of me that got lost just shut down. It’s been almost three years now and I feel no pain when I think of him or see him. It sucks that it had to happen the way it did but the lesson from it had purpose. I had allowed this man to terrorize me and break me down. Yep….I ALLOWED it. I was the victim in this, but I kept myself a victim. When I was in it, I couldn’t see beyond the crazy making and the confusion and hurt to know that all I had to do was stop accepting it. I lost a small part of myself as a result, but through the healing I also found a powerful voice in me that I never knew I had. I never understood how women can stay in abusive situations until it happened to me. The crazy making makes you doubt yourself so much that you never feel like you’re on solid footing and you don’t trust your own perceptions. You lose sight of reality and get lost.
Selkie your post made me cry because I relate to everything you wrote. I was working just today to move out of that headspace that I pretty much feel like i’m in 100% of the time now (if I allow it), where I feel I can’t even grasp the smallest memory of what it used to feel like to be me, the me who had some hope left. Those memories are buried deep but I know they are there, because I felt it today, and get pretty emotional when I remember what used to bring me joy, before I knew the pain of the AC experience. Don’t know if it’s being cheated on or what…but I guess it IS that, and everything that comes along with being cheated on, that has left me in this space. I used to tell the AC, “just because you SAY the sky ISN’T blue, doesn’t mean it’s not!!!!” I would SEE texts on his phone from women he was sleeping with behind my back, and he would tell me I didn’t see anything. He never wrote this and he never wrote that. This might sound like a no-brainer to someone reading this, like, “um duh why would you even question what you saw with your own eyes?” It’s what happens when you are so tied up in all the damage from why you are a Fallback Girl in the first place, coupled with your attachment to EUMs and EUM/ACs, plus their crazy-making behavior!!! Just so awful.
It was the worst experience of my life, but also the catalyst for change. What I have learned is that I really need to have my own back and listen to ME. Shitty people will bump into me/you/us and try to get a foot hold, its inevitable as we go through life, but it’s important to trust our own perceptions and act. I knew underneath all the pain and confusion that things were terribly wrong. I voiced it may times but did nothing, I put it off. The leaving was one of the hardest things I ever did in my life, even though I was miserably unhappy with him and possibly even hated him by this point. I was terrified of the unknown ahead and the pain in front of me. I had at least endured the pain he was inflicting but wasn’t so sure about the pain of losing and rebuilding. Sounds backwards, but that was my mindset. Time and distance helps. You do find yourself again, new parts have grown, others have withered, and you may come out of it very changed. You do the best you can and keep your own heart in mind. I am happy again, even though I have lost some things. We keep moving forward and don’t let the past dictate us. It sounds cliche but I had to lose myself to find myself. I like who I am now, battle scars and all.
Selkie, I haven’t been in a long-term physically abusive relationship but I know someone who has. I don’t think it’s as simple as “I allowed it.” You probably spent much time afraid of leaving out of fear for your life. When you did leave there were probably surrounding circumstances that made it possible for you to, circumstances that weren’t present before, such as having a place to go, ‘fight or flight’ response changing strategies…anyway, you may be coming down too hard on yourself.
Hi Rosie.
I agree, there was nothing simple about it. It took me a long time after it ended (three years) to come to terms with what happened and get some clarity. I no longer beat myself up for the choices I made, but I do own them. I don’t have this simplistic view of what went down and just blame myself. But I do take responsibility for myself and there were many many glowing red flags that I ignored, very early on. Yes, I ignored them, my choice. I entered into this relationship with very little self esteem and didn’t make good choices. I have to own that so I can learn from it, and I have. I did not cause the abuse. I didn’t change a good man into an abuser, he was, and is, who he is all on his own. I don’t take any responsibility for his actions but it was necessary for me to take responsibility for my own. People say here all the time that we teach people how to treat us. I didn’t teach him how to be an abuser, or a liar, or a cheat, but I did teach him that I didn’t value myself enough to leave. I taught myself that to. It was eye opening for me to see how little I loved myself. That is what I accept. My part. I say this from the empowered voice inside me, not being hard on myself. No person deserves to be abused and should take any blame for the abuse, but they need to understand how they got there and learn so it never happens again.
Hi Selkie, I identify with everything you wrote and everything Natalie said in this post. I never understood how women stayed in abusive relationships until it happened to me. It was so subtle at first that I really thought he was right and I was crazy. This one didn’t outright punch me in the face, you poor dear. So sorry you experienced that. This exf**khead was much more subtle. I experienced true gaslighting. Just one quick gaslighting, crazy-making story: Once we moved into together, things went SOUTH fast. One day, I was doing laundry but the clothes were not drying. Swear to god, the clothes were not drying. When he came home and I reported that something was wrong with the dryer. He went bullistic and told me the clothes were dry. He called his father over who informed me that the clothes were dry. They weren’t. But I went through that self-doubt you and Nat describe. I was so lost. Even though I doubted whether the clothes were dry, when I knew they were not, I loaded up me and my daughters clothes and went to the dry cleaner. We had dry fresh clothes on Monday morning. I left his clothes in the dryer. Whoa did I catch hell and high water cos, guess what, his clothes were not dry! Now it was my fault the dryer wasn’t working. After 60 days of absolute gaslighting over so many things, I called the movers and left while he was at work.
Runner,
It’s amazing how they can plant the seed of self doubt. They water it, feed it, and watch it grow. I for one have a mental bottle of Round Up ( pesticide ) to spray on the little weed seeds that try to invade my beautiful garden.
The dryer Dude was a thistle weed in your garden. Now you have red peppers and other beautiful things that don’t poke. It’s sounds silly but our self esteem is like our garden. We have to cultivate it, water it, weed it and not neglect it. Weeds (jerks) are always around, but we just need to keep plucking and chucking them into the bin.
Ah Selkie, it’s funny you use a gardening analogy. That’s what I’ve been doing all day and I know Round Up well. How nice of you to remember my peppers. It’s so easy to see the difference between a weed and a cute little pepper plant in my garden. Our self-esteem is like our garden. I spent last spring rebuilding my soil, it was at the same time I was rebuilding me. I had peppers galore. This year, my soil and me were in much better shape. Thank you, you are right, gardens take a ton of work and so do we. If you don’t mind every time I chuck a weed into the bin, I’ll think of you as well as when I delete some random dude who pops up. I always think of the wonderful ladies and gents on BR when I’m out gardening. I appreciate the new vision with regards to weeds and crazy-making losers. Yup, they (weeds and jerks) are always around…I don’t attract crazy making idiots any more than I attract weeds…but now I know to chuck them.
Congratulations for binning the ex-crazy maker. You are an amazing inspiration.
Hi Selkie, I can only imagine how that experience has left you feeling. Glad to hear you’re out of there and healing, that you recognise what was going etc.
However, I respectfully disagree with this part:
“I was the victim in this, but I kept myself a victim.”
While people insist they might have stayed longer than their hindsight suggests to them they should have, I think it’s unfair to label self the victim. I believe that’s taking on the gaslighter’s/toxic persons perspective.
It’s one of the reasons I’m leary re much of the self-help bullshit out there that uses victimhood beliefs/language to essentially blame (women mostly) for these situations, when “they should have left” etc. Though some of it doesn’t directly state it, it still sends the same message. Sure, there are true victims out there. However I do not refer to them.
I’m sure everyone who has been through it knows that crazymaking can be so hard to recognise when one is in it. Some of it is so subtle that it’s really easy to not think ill of someone, especially if ones beliefs encourage one to think everyone is good until proven otherwise (the positive thinking cult of the day pretty much assures this by banning anything deemed “negative” etc). I fucking loathe the positive thinking cult, I really do – not because thinking positively per se is bad – because the beliefs etc involved are not actually that healthy when you really break it down, and I believe that via consequences it directly contributes to toxic, shitty outcomes.
E.g. You recognise shitty beliefs/behaviour in someone, discuss that with someone else who thinks you’re being negative – J.Bloggs couldn’t possibly be doing XYZ because they’re “such a good person, look, they donate money to charity – that means they MUST be a good person/have good intent” etc. What if that someone else is ignorant, believing themselves to be open-minded or an authorative source of info etc, when the reality is quite different?
Fuck, crazymaking happens so much – at work and in daily life – that it’s really no wonder it’s difficult to pinpoint it, in a relationshit or whatever. (Please excuse the french). In my job, not a day goes by where someone isn’t gaslighting the shit out of others; my job before that was no different. Some people just don’t realise they’re doing it, perhaps believing they’re operating from a place of “good intentions” or whatever etc. I’m kinda amazed the world doesn’t com-bust the amount of it that does go on – NOT helped by lack of awareness. My experience shows that most people will not agree with you when you suggest it is happening, thereby contributing to the gaslighting. I believe it’s pretty much encouraged by some of the beliefs aspired to today.
“When I was in it, I couldn’t see beyond the crazy making and the confusion and hurt to know that all I had to do was stop accepting it.”
That is why I do not think it’s useful to label self as victim. And unless people know what gaslighting is, experience it, I do not believe they are qualified to counsel those who have been through it; e.g. the wrong counselor will say and suggest things that I believe further add to the crazymaking.
There is abuse/gaslighting information available where you can read how the crazy making WILL make one re-act in ways that are DIRECTLY attributable to the crazy making; that ARE out of character. But people seldom suggest or admit this – a lot of self-help information encourages the victim mentality by more or less saying that.
Selkie – I refuse to accept that you’re a victim. What you wrote and how you said it suggests to me you are not. Not that what I think matters or should matter.
However – there are so many people (especially a lot of women) who are not aware gaslighting exists. People are encouraged to not think ill of others, thereby contributing to the problem. Gaslighting is subtle, and it does happen a lot. When it happens, the victim is only a victim in the sense it happened to them.
Yes one is responsible for oneself – however things like gaslighting are very hard to find out about and confirm.
Gaslighting, like most things, exists on a spectrum: ‘harmless’ to ‘harmful’. Who’s the judge of what constitutes harmless?
Remember: there are people out there who WILL learn Neuro-linguistic Programming techniques precisely in order to ‘win favour’ with others. Unless you are similarly trained, how would you know? And no – that’s not paranoia, it’s a reality. To deny it is to further gaslight 🙂 NLP is VERY popular – for a reason. Male pick up artists use the techniques, salespeople, managers, etc etc, whether they are aware of it or not.
I’m sure everyone already knows too, that there are also many many people who have been parented by toxic parents, who will likely repeat that behaviour unless they become self aware. My limited experience has shown there’s not a large population of self-aware. Much of what goes on is further normalised by everyday culture and other people – people who have also been fed toxic beliefs normalised by parents/culture/everything. Consider good intentions – there are many people who believe having good intentions is a valid reason to excuse their not-shitty-to-them behaviour.
This reply is way too long. The TL;DR version is a Dr. Timothy Leary quote: Think for yourself and question authority (authority being ANY source of information, friend or otherwise – where did that info come from? Why do they believe that? Does correlation imply causation?)
http://www.dosenation.com/listing.php?id=5001
“When I say think for yourself, I don’t mean think selfishly for yourself. I mean think independently.”
“If you’re going to think for yourself, you gotta learn to think clearly.”
“The point of the 20th century, you can argue, is to get us to accept knowledge, processing, and reality on screens.”
“To me, a computer is a thought processor.”
I thought I had changed one sentence however it doesn’t appear I did:
While people insist they might have stayed longer than their hindsight suggests to them they should have, I do not believe it’s useful to label self the victim. I believe that’s taking on the gaslighter’s/toxic persons perspective.
The reason I wanted to change that sentence, is because the use of the word “unfair” is now correlated with victimhood – because life is not meant to be fair etc.
And regardless of that word association, I believe that’s true – life is not fair; nor is it meant to be. Changing it to “I do not believe it’s useful” more accurately conveys what I wanted to say.
What if:
The concept of “victimhood” and its many facets, is something that was devised by abusers to (further) control outcomes?
🙂
RSJ,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I have lots of thoughts on how survivors of abuse are looked at, counseled, and thought of. For a long time I was embarrassed to admit it happened to me. I didn’t like being seen as a victim and it felt shameful. I was abused and yet I was the one who felt shame. I have been a very independent, free thinking person since I was a kid, so this new connotation of being a victim made me feel misunderstood and like I was a failure or had really messed up. I could literally see the way people looked at me when I did mention the abuse and crazy making ….they saw me as small and weak, inadequate, unable to cope and some looked at me like I was making it up, like I was looking for sympathy. I hated both. I didn’t like to be looked at as helpless and small or deranged enough to make stuff up for attention. so, I agree we need to be careful how we appoint and qualify the idea of being a victim. There can be a stigma and with the label, I agree. It can also encourage someone to stay in the feeling of being victimized if they latch on to status of being a victim…like they some how are less now because they became one and it makes them feel even worse about themselves. Like they are weak, and being labeled as a victim puts the stamp on it and says ‘see, if you hadn’t been weak and stood up for yourself this could of been avoided’. I know it appears that I am saying just that by saying I was a victim, let myself stay a victim and could of just stopped accepting it. The definition of victim is one who is harmed as a result of an event or action or who is tricked. Without all the stigma and shame and slant of opinion….I was that….harmed and tricked. I no longer feel shame in that. I agree that those who have not experienced it may not be able to understand what that means, or how damaging or insidious crazy making is. But this is about me and not what the world thinks of me or if they understand. I had to let go of that because it kept me from my own truths. I say I was a victim, because I was, but the term doesn’t define me as a person. It defined a circumstance. I think that is where we split on how we see things. I think empowerment is the key for recovery, rather than reinforcing victim status ( I think we agree on that) , but I feel admitting you were a victim of someone harming you is okay. I don’t feel like I have to avoid the word anymore. It’s a simple truth for me. I was a victim of abuse. I also no longer want to feel shame for saying I was a victim. It wasn’t my fault and there is no shame on me that I was harmed by someone. The shame is on him. It also empowers me to know I had the power in me all along to remove myself from the abuse, even though while in it I didn’t see that and it was complicated. I’m not simplifying it, but refuse the idea I was helpless to him. That depresses me like I am merely prey for men like him. I think it doesn’t help survivors to say they had no control over what happened to them. They did and do. It doesn’t make it their fault to say the say had choices. The fact that I had some control over my own life ( and didn’t exercise it) doesn’t shift the blame of the abuse in my direction at all but gives me hope and affirmation that I have the power to take care of myself, I have it within me. It isn’t something I have to go find, but rather learn to tap into it. I find that very empowering. Rather than feeling like I am a failure for not helping myself sooner, I take comfort that this kind of strength exists and existed in me and that it’s a matter of being able to find it when I need it. It is better than the alternative that I had no control. I can’t swallow that. I don’t disagree with you but feel different about my own personal truths and how I see myself. I don’t see myself being a victim as a self degrading, self limiting proclamation, rather a circumstance I endured and survived. I see the glass half full when I say it. I was a victim of abuse, and that is not a concept for me, it’s a very real thing. The ‘concept’ (unlike the definition) of victimhood is defined by the worlds opinion ( even the abusers opinion ) of it, like it’s some sort of condition. I am speaking from within myself and without the worlds definition dictating me. When I cared what others thought of me being a victim….it was then when I felt shamed. That is how the abuser won….as long as I was shamed by being a victim, he had me.
One more thing. One of the things stifled in me was voicing how I felt. It’s hard for me to voice what I just did for fear of conflict. I feel so grateful for this blog and the opportunity to be open. I know what I feel may not be what someone else feels. I take it as an opportunity to learn by hearing others opinions. Thank you all for responding.
Sorry, more…..I also learned I had to be careful who I talked to this about. RSJ, you are right, some people did make it out to be my fault, subtly, by asking “why didn’t you just leave?” I had no real answer for them. Because I couldn’t? I asked myself the same thing a million times. In my hindsight, the idea that I could of done more to help myself actually helps me. It gives me hope in me instead of feeling more blame for it or like I let myself down. It’s like losing a big important race (loose analogy here)….you say to your dedicated self, I tried hard and did the best I could but now I know how to do better in the next race. It isn’t about how you failed it’s about how you move forward by recognizing where you could improve. In a word…..boundaries.
P.S. And believing in yourself.
Selkie– Oh, my gosh! You opened my eyes to my own jerky attitude that I didn’t know I had. Ouch! That hurts but the kind I need, ya know? I love what you wrote about how you were a victim of abuse, a victim of the circumstances, not a victim as a condition. This is what I needed correcting on without knowing it. Wow! Thank you so much, Selkie, for your thoughtful replies and patience. Oh, how ignorant I am but I’m learning.
Although I haven’t been in a long-term abusive relationship, I was stalked and attacked (not raped) by an ex-bf a long time ago for breaking up with him. I was taken off-guard and I don’t know why but I went back with him for one night and broke up with him the next day. My parents were abusive (Dad was physically, verbally abusive and Mom was emotionally abusive) and I haven’t been able to sustain any type of romantic relationship and I’ve pretty much given up on that. What I didn’t know that I now know thanks to you is that I did (past tense 😉 ) see victimhood as a condition. How condescending! I am so sorry, Selkie, and to all victims of abuse, including myself, for my condescending, jerky attitude!
I think I may have just had a breakthrough, don’t know yet, but, if I have, it’s because of you, Selkie.
selkie
It took me a while to realise this but I did not contribute to the ex abusing me, not even by staying. His decision, his choice, his action. I took responsibility for myself and left but that’s a separate matter. His. Mine.
It may seem like I’m splitting hairs but it helps me to have that bright line. I struggled with blaming myself, albeit obliquely, for some time.
If/when you meet a good person, there’s no crazymaking, but love, care and respect. It frees you to be loving, caring and respectful yourself. Much as we might try and mean well I’m not sure it’s possible to love a crazymaker. There just isn’t the possibility of having the right kind of interaction.
There’s so much we can experience and learn when we let these clowns go. BTW the illustration is hilarious!
Grace,
“There’s so much we can experience and learn when we let these clowns go.”
I agree 100%. Although I have a few fading scars, I am so much more centered and aware than I ever was. I made a choice to not struggle so hard and just trust myself more. Once you hit bottom, no where to go but up…as long as you keep moving forward.
I think that’s the key Grace and Selkie, we didn’t cause the abuse. These a-holes were abusive long before they happened into our lives. In my experience, I found it impossible to love or live with or be around a crazy-maker. The minute I smell gas, I run like hell. My past mistakes, among many, was to give the crazy idiot the time of day, then when I realized he was crazy, I thought I could cure him! Yup, that’s crazy!
I have recently discovered BR and I must say that every sigle post I have read so far resonates with me in so many ways. I have recently stepped out of a relationship with an EMU that was making me crazy. I’m not going to lie, I still feel a little crazy still, but reclaiming my power and saying I wont accept shady behaviour has given my self-esteem a boost, regardless of the pain that came along with it. Thank you Natalie for continuing to inspire us all to demand better for ourselves. I am 5 weeks N/C and going strong thanks to your blog and the wonderful community that follows you!
Hat’s off to you!
Stay strong MissJess. It feels crazy when you are in it and feels crazy, at first, when you get out. It’ll start feeling better and less crazy. I know it may be too soon however, it is never too soon to block him. Crazy narcs have a way of coming back like cockroaches after a nuclear thingy. Hats off to you. As soon as you can, BLOCK and DELETE…depending on your cell provider, blocks only last for 90 days. Then I guess, cell providers figure it is up to you to delete. Just an FYI.
About 5 years ago, I dated a guy like this. I consider myself to be quite a level headed, strong and independent women but I started questioning my own actions as he always made me feel like I had done something wrong, when he was at fault. Luckily, the penny dropped and I told him that I knew exactly what he was doing, his ‘switchroo’ tactics and after that conversation we parted ways but somehow I was too blame and a difficult person.
Good post Nat, I have been on the end of this psychotic behavior.My x called on wed said he wanted a relationship and on sat we were suppose to go out. Sat came and he got amnesia so I did cry and was upset and sent a text on sun asking what happened. He said that I was pushed him way back because of the text I sent asking what happened and I was being crazy for being upset.
I stepped in front of the car when I clearly seen him trying to run me down, thats my fault. I actually thought I was crazy, then I thought hey I been on Nc since feb, and he’s been calling me everyday. He is the one to come to my house unannouced several times.How am I crazy for expecting him to show action with his words, and how does that make me crazy that I expect someone would live up to their words or hope they would.
But I take fault for not moving out the way when
After my 9 year ordeal at the hands of a manipulative and cruel husband I read up about “gas lighting”. It seems that throughout history these mind bending techniques have been used by abusers to keep their victims in check. I did the Freedom Programme through my local domestic abuse group and it opened my eyes. What Natalie is describing formed the basis of most of the marriage. I have also come to realise that I was the verbal punch bag for other family members, so this role was one that I was used to fulfilling. I was perfect abuse fodder. I have had a year of counselling, my boundaries are now firmly in place and I feel that for the first time ever, I am finally me. This website has helped me a lot. Educating yourself about the dynamics of human relationships is important as it helps you understand what is normal and acceptable and what is most definitely not. I am not sure if I will have another relationship, but I am happy being single and finding out more about myself for the time being. I have started a college course and have got a place at uni in september. I feel so alive and happy. Thank you Natalie- you’ve helped me more than you’ll ever know.x
These comments are excellent!
This is exactly why I ended my last relationship. The great thing is that I spotted this before it escalated and got out immediately. That is totally down to Natalie’s wisdom which I gained reading and re-reading this blog. Thank you!
Please don’t listen to peoples bad judgements, they were not a good friend in the first place!! Especially when they play Psychiatrist 🙂 UNPLUG!!!
As I’ve said from a previous post… “Don’t let the b*st*rds grind you down”
“Please don’t listen to peoples bad judgements, they were not a good friend in the first place!! Especially when they play Psychiatrist”
Agree! You have no idea where their info or beliefs came from 🙂 Something that makes sense does not necessarily make it true.
I also suggest applying the same rule to qualified psychologists etc, who, unless they have direct experience of situations, or are trained in all facets of abuse etc, *can* end up doing more harm.
I recall years ago now someone mentioned to me they/someone they knew went to University to study psychology because they wanted to sort out their own mental health etc. Hearing that put a whole new spin on that industry, not to mention the fact the DSM is re-written and re-published to suit whatever/whoever of the day. It does seem that rather a lot of people study psychology for same/similar reasons. Or due to a Florence Nightingale complex 🙂
Tinkerbell
August is the start of the academic year and AC is a fellow proff. We start the semester with an all day workshop run by yours truly. I have looked for other jobs, worked with a realtor and a financial consultant this year and all told me in no uncertain terms that I would face serious debt and a trashed credit rating if I bail on my mortgage, do a below cost sale, and senior level academic jobs are scarce now. Not sure it is worth putting myself deliberately into debt and possibly an old age in poverty to avoid an AC is a good idea. Not only did he get to hurt me big time, he’d also have a hand in ruining the rest of my life. Spent a lot of this past year checking out all possible avenues and there just aren’t and good solutions right now.
Noquay: Of course, you are the only one who truly knows your options, and it is entirely up to you to make your choice! On the other hand I believe that the single biggest threat to our happiness, our health and our financial well being is a person who has abused us in the past and who still has influence on our life.
Noquay, this man has such control and power over your entire life. We’ve all been amazed by your character, education, accomplishments, your hammer wielding, bear chasing abilites. But this bear needs to be dealt with, so you can move on, either to another planet or in your cabin and be content. You seem to still be in the angry sad stage of grieving. The process is protracted for you because you have to have some
contact with him.And you have no close friends or family to confide in and give you support. Everyone in town seems to be a loser.
I suggest you take June and July and see a councilor, with the intent that you have 2 months to work on your inner bear that is eating you up.
Say you have a demon to face in 2 months and you want therapy of a sort and techniques to detach from the bear so that come August you can say
I’m finally beginning to feel better. I can manage this bear now.
Noquay, I’ve always followed your posts and want you to know that you have been an inspiration. I’m not in a small mountain town and there are no bears here. I do a lot of DYI but you are simply amazing girl. The former ex-abusive-gaslighting-motherf88ker is a proff colleague. I see him almost every day and have to attend meetings with him. I blank him totally. He is dirt. Yesterday I had to go to my mailbox and he was in the mail room. I hesitated and then walked right in and conducted my business. I did not acknowledge his presence even though he is as big as a bear and more menacing. It was like f**k you, you gaslighting narc. C’mon noquay…fight this…blank this bear. You are an amazing woman with a bright future. Shoot this bear with your best blanks!
Noquay, I always follow your posts as well because we have a lot in common. My ex was not only my boss for a time, but even after I went to work for another person in the organization, I still had to deal with seeing him or working on joint projects on a regular basis. I managed to limit all of this as much as humanly possible to just emails and a rare phone call. In 18 months, I managed to have NO non-work related conversation with him – no small talk, no chit-chat, no “Hi, how are ya”, nothing. I avoided him at all meetings and social gatherings. If he was on the right side of the room, I was on the left. If I had to pass him in the hall and it seemed too awkward to ignore him, I would give a brief nod and move on. In the beginning, he kept trying to engage me in conversation with a big smile, but eventually even he got the message and left me alone. It can be done! You can do this! Like Runner said, shoot this bear!!
If you want to move out of your limited town, don’t let fear stop you – but don’t consider it just to get away from this worthless creep who really isn’t that special. The ex was a big womanizer in this town too, but that’s only because this county has almost NO decent men, and he was fairly attractive by comparison – and there are a lot of terrific, quality, lonely women in the area. He could have his pick. In a richer social environment, he wouldn’t stand out at all. One of life’s unfair quirks! But not one that I’m going to let throw me, or influence my decisions. I urge you to cut him dead and DON’T give him that much power to affect you!
I am in my early 50’s and after not having a date (let alone a relationship) for over 1 1/2 years, I let down my guard and opened up to yet another idiot savant. After a blowup via TEXT (never phone calls…”timing” issues) I actually said “ADIOS”, goodbye. Then I spent TWO MONTHS agonizing over what was wrong with me, that I “chased off” yet another man? Even one that I knew in my gut was a player to the max, unable to commit, always said “you may be the one” etcetc. Then I panicked because this was the first guy I actually liked (up until this explosion from nowhere) but I also made sure I did no contact. It’s been hard. Then I got the “text” after 2 months saying that I could be a cool girl…what the ? It scared me that after all these years, I still choose to be involved with idiots. Therefore, I am now in counseling and am working on “what I want from men and dating”. gulp. scary stuff. Hang tough, ladies. We are worth self respect, dignity and being treated with respect.
This is a wonderful post – as they all are. Thanks, just thanks for this site. I have recently realized the difficulties caused by not fully understanding the difference between ‘explaining’ and ‘explaining away’. Or is this just a variation on the bullshit diet?
I haven’t posted for a while – I’ve certainly been reading. I hope this link helps too if its ok to post it.
This article and the one regarding ‘choppers’ really has helped me. I’m still in the situation as I’ve been drawn back in. Nothing has changed, nothing will. I just can’t seem to move from this. I always said I wouldn’t be in this situation and I couldn’t understand women who stayed. I understand it now and I feel guilt for judging. It’s so dam hard when you’ve involved with the sweet to mean to sweet behaviour. I will walk, I will find the strength. I will go nc, I just haven’t been able to yet.
I try so hard, I really do but then he contacts me again promising glitter and stars and love, the world and all that jazz and still…… Nothing……
Poppy,
I get it. It’s hard to let go of that hope that keeps us tangled, even if it’s a huge source of pain. You’ve heard the song ‘Hurts so Good’. Nothing good about it but you somehow feel you need it or can’t let go. In your heart you know you deserve better. Gently listen to yourself. I want to share a song that I listened to a lot when I was neck deep in what you’re going through. It gave me inspiration that I would find the strength to let go. I did eventually, and while it was hard to let go the death grip, when I did, slowly I found peace on the other side. Blocking and absolute NC were essential for me. Good luck, I support you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPrWLnDM5zc
Poppy, I’ve been there too and I understand. I never understood women who stayed until I was one. No judgments. YOU ARE NOT CRAZY. In fact, the minute you start feeling that craziness which may be reinforced by him telling you you are crazy, that is a red flag. I totally identified with Nat’s post on choppers too. It is insidious. Like Selkie says, it’s a death grip. You have to walk, run, block, and get out. There is no way to make sense of the pathological nonsense. It is pathological. There is no glitter, no stars. There is nothing. So, repeat after me…I AM NOT CRAZY. I AM NOT CRAZY…I MUST MOVE ON. Block. Lock your doors. Batton down your hatches. Trust me, there are guys out there who don’t do this shit. Repeat…I AM NOT CRAZY…
I am so glad I have your support. I’ve said before in previous posts that subconsciously I’m used to the drama and manipulation from an abusive childhood.
As it happens I left on Monday morning. I didn’t leave a note, I didn’t text or mail with an explanation. The night before I suffered with abuse physically, verbally and emotionally for the very last time. I tried to go then but he kept tipping my case over the floor, threw it in my stomach, cornered me and I now have a bruise on my arm that is enough for me now. I know how he works and he calms so it was easier to stay and wait for him to go to work the next morning. He will know why I did it. He was treating me badly and saying crazy stuff, being secretive and playing mind games so that I would walk. He even got his mum on the phone shouting and saying how bad I treat him right in front of me. Of course she sided with him saying ‘why is she like that? Why is her self esteem so low she thinks everybody is against her? I’ve never known my son to lie, I’ve never known my son to cheat, I’ve never known my son to be abusive and if he was it was just in self defence’. I just sat there as there was no point in defending myself or telling her what her son is really like behind closed doors. A pointless task. I didn’t care.
I’m not stupid and even if I have done what he wanted and left the main thing is I wanted to leave. I want to end this vicious, poisonous cycle that is crippling my growth and movement and the chance to have children and love in my life. He has someone else, he always has had a sideline and this time I care nothing about who he is with.
I actually feel ok, I have changed and I’m so much stronger than ever before when he has finished it or I have walked. The amount of times is embarrassing. I pray, it works, I feel supported and I know that when he said nobody loves me, my fanily hate me that he is wrong. I am no longer a victim to this and I am emotionless.
I know my faults and I know where I have gone wrong. I played detective and did some crazy stuff by looking through his phone etc. What Natalie has written is text book on every level with this man.
I’m not berating myself anymore, I’m not torturing myself over this. I really do forgive myself. This is about me now and I am no longer tangled opinion the hope and I AM NOT CRAZY.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for your support.
Congratulations Poppy. That cannot have been easy. So. Breathe. Don’t make any rash decisions, take your time to figure out what you want to do now. Just because you think he wanted you to leave doesn’t mean you aren’t gong to her from him. Promise yourself you will never answer his calls or texts. Block him if you can. Keep safe. Keep reading here. Keep away from him. Your life starts over again now.
Good for you Poppy. I’m glad you are in a safe place now. Tabitha is right. Breathe and take some time for you now. As soon as you can block him…remember the block only lasts for 90 days. It is going to be the last time you leave and you will never have to listen to his nonsense again. You are not crazy and you are not going back.
Treat yourself to something really nice today.
Thank you again. Yes, I hope I won’t hear from him. I have no ego now that needs feeding. When it ended previously I used to hope he would contact me again whilst in a state of disillusion with what was actually happening, blinded and just not seeing the truth. Right this minute and I know it’s early days I feel stronger than ever.
I am expecting the low moments and I have promised myself to come straight here. I never contact him anyway, I never have so I trust myself enough not to do that. If he contacts in any way around my blocking I will not reply. That, of course will be a first if I don’t because that is why I always ended up back in his arms by breaking no contact.
I know you will all keep me strong. Thank you again for letting me rely in you.
I couldn’t walk away from my mother till a certain age. Now, I can. Something has changed. Epiphany.
I went NC with my “mother” earlier this year, and I got this whole thing, the “oversensitive” remarks, the irrational lashing out when I calmly try to defend myself, accusations of not “letting it go” and finally silence when I invited her to both give me some help and prove her accusations of me having ASD were right. I don’t know if she is still doing this or if she has really let go as she said she has, but anyway, what you said has so much truth in it, thank you!
Transmission from the satellite heart.
I have been reading BR for a few months now. Back tracking to some of the other incredible articles as I thought myself crazy to feel and think as I have done in a ‘relationship’ I have experienced.
Now a long lignering breakup. Old tapes replaying at the worst of times of how I was made to be an overly-sensitive person with deep trust issues. I wore my heart on my sleeve. Tried to have open and honest communication only to have it reflected back to me as being insecure and a victim.
She could do and say as she pleased without any filter and when I would voice dissatisfaction at her attitude I was told to grow a thicker skin.
I was called out on my misgivings. I was humbled and apologised and was willing to talk through them and find a middle ground. I called her out on her misgivings and it was a huge debacle of
on how I am always finding fault with her and nothing is ever good enough.
Ever since the start of the ‘relationship’ the alarm bells were ringing but I was truly blinded by the future faking. I was a culprit too.
God knows there is more to it. The ridiculousness of the cyclic redundancy.
I have been placed on NC. Sad and hard lessons learned. Rather now.
In the words of Morrissey, “I am human and I need to be loved, just like everybody else does.”
Thank you so much for an insightful Blog.
Wiser, Runnergirl, and Simplepleasures
Sorry it has taken me soo long to reply:things get insane at the end of the semester.
You are right; I need to be rid of this bear once and for all! It would’ve been much easier if there were options other than near total alone-ness or trying to force, force, FORCE myself to be with folk that I have zero common values with or are unhealthy. You would think that a chick that can face grizz, go thru cancer totally alone, build her own damned buildings could force herself to simply no longer want meaningful human companionship and just write off ever being cared about again. I have done all that I can to see what my realistic options are so that I do not not wind up not only alone but having to live alone in some sterile apartment, in some place I do not want to be, still having to work well into old age because I made bad decisions in order to quickly escape my current situation. As of yesterday, I have resigned from the committee that forces me to be in contact with AC’s latest victim. Come next fall, I probably am going to have to tell AC to kindly stop volunteering for committees that he knows I am chairing, that we need to somehow decide who goes or does not go to the damned Christmas party, to avoid one another at lunch. Perhaps above all, to not shoot the messenger when she reports the situation of women in not only the town but on campus which, very ironically, affects HIS program the most. However, I understand that engaging a narc is an exercise in utter futility. Sorry to rant so much, I am sick of the sadness, sick of being told to accept nothing or to settle, sick of seeing bad folk positively thrive while feeling myself slowly die inside.
PS to Tabitha: nope I did not have to make up an excuse to not go out with Mr. Red Flags, I was signed up to run an ultramarathon the next day and did.
Noquay: Not all apartments are sterile… I can attest to this because I have lived in them for most of my adult life.
More importantly, after too much exposure to a toxic person our world might look way narrower than it actually is. I think we always have to keep this in mind!
That happened to me after all those years with my toxic (probably narcissistic) deputy team leader. I lost all interest in hobbies, travel, socializing and other outside activities because they seemed so pointless, given that they wouldn’t help me “fix” those issues I had with her… Likewise, I lost all my self-confidence regarding my job despite my stellar performance.
Ironically, that made the idea of quitting appear even MORE dreadful, because – as I used to think – what would I be without my job? After all, I had nothing else to look forward to (or so I believed).
At some point I hit rock bottom. I thought: I’m so worthless that if I quit this job I’m going to end up on welfare. No one else would hire me. But then I came to the conclusion: Better broke, on welfare, having to sell all my possessions, possibly even becoming a bag lady… than putting up with HER anymore. It occured to me that the things I feared MOST would be less bad than the horror I was going through.
This helped. Now that I’m going to start a new job (which is going to be a little bit less “glamorous” than the old one), and also after reporting her to management I’ve realized that I’m not worthless. There is hope. Also, my hobbies and other activities are worthwile even if they wouldn’t help with changing HER (nothing would!).
For years, I used to believe I couldn’t quit because
a) it would harm my career
b) I wouldn’t enjoy any other job as much as I used to enjoy this one
c) I would feel like a failure
Ironically, staying might have harmed my career more than anything else, I stopped enjoying work and I did feel like a failure BECAUSE I STAYED.
Elly B
Yep, even one toxic person in ones life can really ruin it, often for a long time.
Problem is, I am NOT a city person, though I actually grew up in a ghetto till age 10. As an adult, I have tried it and it was an abysmal failure. We, above all else, need to be our authentic selves; for me, that is farmer and serious woodswoman. Unfortunately I am the weird sort of woodswoman who reads tons of books, is actually considered quite cultured by others (at least here) avoids TV, bars, and truly cares about the environment. When I lived in a city (or even stay short term) I could not sleep due to the noise, felt trapped, could not wander alone at will due to safety issues, could not have critters, grow food, run trails, etc. I was literally hallucinating due to only getting 2-3 hours of sleep per night. Cannot live that way. If I left and lived in a city, I would also be doing so at about half my current salary (I would have to abandon caring for my Dad) and also would retire very poor, further limiting any chance at having a good relationship ever again. I have lived very poor throughout my life, Grew up in poverty, was malnourished.yep, and almost to the point of near-homelessness, Was in that very place just before this current job, I am far from a Capitalist greedhead, but I never want to go back there again. Actually most of my co workers are great (with one glaring exception), though I am burned out, I could at least limp along, being super productive till retirement, my real life is more important to me than career per se. If only I could force myself to no longer feel the need for another human being, at least for a while. Since I was outta town for a few meetings in ritzy skibunnyland, I took the time to meet with a financial advisor for a second opinion and the prognosis is much the same. Not good if I bail on the mortgage and just leave. Believe me, I have looked at all feasible options. Less than ten years ago, I had a wonderful hsuband that I had a very strong wmotion and intellectual attraction to, had a wonderful circle on non-work friends with whom I’d argue environmental and social issues with for hours on end, felt loved and respected by many, I widh I could have that life back but again, probably my option now is to learn to not feel.
You are right to stare down that grizzly narc ex Noquay. He isn’t worth wrecking your life over. I always wish I could wave a magic wand when I read your posts. I want to send in someone you can relate to as it all seems so unfair that you need to live somewhere where the dating pool is so unsuitable for you. An ultramarathon!!! Good grief! I am so full of admiration for you. I will keep sending thoughts to the universe for ex AC to be sent far far away, and for your own Bear Fighting, Eco Friendly, Critter Loving Prince Charming to visit your neck of the woods.
Tabitha
Send about a half dozen of those dudes as I ahve some fantastic kick a$$ female colleagues that are in much the same boat.
Thankx
“With someone whose comfort zone is victim, asserting your boundaries is seen as disrespecting theirs, even though they have little or no respect for yours.
They have high sensitivity for themselves, low sensitivity for others.’
I have had two substance-abusing stepmothers like this, and a father. You cannot reason with them. Any attempt you make to stick up for yourself is you being unreasonable, you being difficult and you being in the wrong. I look back at my time with them and seriously am impressed that I somehow managed to survive with my sense of logic and truth intact. But really how crazy making these types of people can be.
That is one reason why sometimes it can be hard at work; there are people like this out there. And if you grew up with this, it really hits home and freaks you out. I have someone like this on my team and just being in the room with her as she tries to weave her web…it gives me chills.
You are right DQ. That is exactly how my momster works. We have been NC since easter, at her instigtion since she blew up at me over nothing in front of the whole family. I took the unprecedented step of asking her calmly not to shout at me. Well that was an affront to her of course. I am not allowed boundaries and SHE is the victim. Apparently she is now playing the “Bewildered Old Lady” card. I am not engaging. I have been bitten by that venomous snake so many times my toxin levels are dangerously high. I have to withdraw for my own health and sanity. She can weave her web with someone else.She will never stop.
Tabitha: Maybe it helps you to hear what let to (forever!) NC with my narc momster about 10 years ago…
At a family function, she tried to talk me into eating some kind of food to which I was allergic (which she knew perfectly well). We argued for a while (with my father and grandmother acting as silent/passive witnesses) until I said: “Stop it, damn!” And then she fiercely reprimanded me for using a swear word with her (which I had never done before).
Afterwards, I was unable to function properly for several days. Most of the time I lay on my floor in my appartment, kicking and screaming. I started to realize that I was unable to EVER change her or to have a “normal” relationship with that woman. Back then it felt like my ultimate defeat. As if it was my fault that I felt unable to put up with her any longer! But it wasn’t. NC was the only viable path to self-respect and something like happiness.
Yeah, that incident sounds “smallish”, but then… She tried to talk me into endangering my health, and when I “stubbornly” (???) refused she reprimanded me as if I was some naughty, immature little child (I was an accomplished women in her late twenties back then). Shouldn’t a grown woman be allowed to chose her own food… especially if health issues are involved?
People often insinuated that it was due to my “immaturity” that I was unable to have a decent “adult” relationship with that creep. But then how immature was her own behavior???
What she did was totally crazy-making (and that was clearly her intention – that women wasn’t stupid, she held a postgraduate degree after all…).
Thanks for sharing EllyB. Momster has done everything she can my whole life to undermine my self esteem. She rejoices in my calamities and problems and is jealous and critical if I have any kind of success. Our society tells us we should revere our mothers, and going Nc with them is of course unthinkable and unjustifiable to most people. The thing is, her behaviour towards me has been unthinkable and unjustifiable. I have a daughter myself and we don’t agree on everything but I spend my time trying to build up her self esteem, not rip it down at every opportunity. Being NC with her is great but there is an undercurrent of “what will she do next.” I can guarantee it isn’t over.
This description of crazy-making behaviour does sound like textbook borderline personality disorder, as a few commenters have noted. If anyone reading this can relate to the descriptions above but has never heard of this serious mental illness, I heartily recommend further reading on the subject. My therapist recommended a book called “Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder” and it has changed my life for the better and given me a lot of strength and understanding I lacked before. (It has also changed the lives of about a million others, because it’s a bestseller — evidently a lot of people are affected by the crazy-makers in our society.) Like Natalie, it definitely discourages your attempting to “make sense of nonsense”, but it also can help you to understand WHY borderlines resort to nonsense, where their nonsense comes from, and why IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT. Then it offers strategies for helping you get on with your life as an empowered and wiser new you. Good luck to all, and yay for Baggage Reclaim for saving our butts time and time again!!! xxx
Phew Nat…it all makes so much sense! With the ex and family. …I just about did go crazy…serious. …but thank god through stepping back and being on my own for 3 mths I finally worked out all of the above for myself. Controlling? Bullying? Is that what these folks are? I have distanced myself from these peole and kept my dignity and life is sooo much better. It was so so hard at first as I felt like I was mad…I was told this several times, its so goooood to be free of all the ‘abuse’ . Thanks for a great post. X
@ Green Legs. .. yeah the two people I refer to in my previous post I defo would say personaliity disorder/narcissist. Dangerous individuals
This sounds so much like my ex. He blew hot and cold always. Even on my birthday, he picked a fight with me because I did not eat all of my food. I got full on the appetizer and bread. I walked on eggshells always afraid of what I would say/do to upset him next. When I tried to explain my feelings, he made everything out to be my fault. To the point where I would apologize for offending him or jumping to wrong conclusions. This was the most tumultuous year of my life. Always afraid of what was next. SMH at my myself!
Tales from my past relationship…
I think it has been over a year or two and I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that I put myself through this nonsense for a year. No matter how many BR posts I read, I still question myself and I’m afraid of getting into another relationship (shoot, even date or be approached by a guy). I’m taking it all one day at a time. I will admit that I’ve come a looooong way since then and learned soooo much about myself.
Omg that resonated so much with me! That’s exactly what its like. Thank you. When people like you put something out there like this as a frame of reference it helps people who are stuck in that situation, wondering what’s going on, feel a little less crazy.
This makes so much sense! Recently my neighbour’s gardener’s truck was blocking my driveway on Mother’s Day, and my guests were about to arrive. I went to the driver and asked her to move the truck, and she just went into a rant about not wanting to work on Sunday but her boyfriend (the gardener) injured his arm and couldn’t work for the last 5 days. When I suggested that this had nothing to do with the truck blocking my property she flipped out and called me selfish and psychotic. Finally the boyfriend got out of the truck (I didn’t know he was there) and threatened to sue me. He started taking photos and threatened to call the police. All because I asked them, calmly, to move the truck!
“If you respond with the irritation, anger, frustration, upset and other emotions and behaviours that situations like this can rightfully elicit, you are also ‘wrong’ and possibly accused of having anger management issues… while they’re shouting at or even physically attacking you.”
This was my AC’s mo. I was “verbally abusive” if I said “ouch”, got upset or angry with his outlandish behavior. One time I had a moment of clarity and told him to look up emotional abuse – that was him! LOL
Great article Nat – wished I had seen this earlier last month!!
I’m sorry for responding so late, but I just had to comment. I actually thought I was going crazy, but after reading this and several other articles on this (fantastic) site, I’ve realized that I’m not, really. I think I’m afflicted with the “talk & think too much” mindset, and my attempts to have constructive discussions with my significant other always backfire horrendously. He tells me my expectations are too high, that the things I ask him to try are too hard, and that his behavior is not bad — it’s just my perspective is skewed. The worst example of this was when he called me (and I’m embarrassed to admit this) the c-word, and then proceeded to defend himself over the course of several weeks until I gave up. We had a conversation today that began with me trying to be supportive and constructive, and ended with him exploding and cursing, and spitting my advice back in my face (not literally). That’s what drove me to finding this website. I don’t mean to sound dramatic; it just is such a relief to be able to get this all out, and to realize that I’m not the only one out there dealing with an “assclown.” Thank you so much for writing this!
I know this is mainly a women’s website but I’ve been finding this site useful. My girlfriend exhibits ALL of the behaviour of AC, Future Fakers and reset buttons…..it’s scary how she fits into these descriptions exactly. She has somehow beaten me down over the months and I now can see how she has been manipulating me to accept everything eg she lies about wanting to meet up and cancels and when I bring it up she uses the tactics above to make me angry so she has an excuse for cancelling and then I feel it’s my fault. I have my button of an ex-boyfriend that she knows everytime gets me angry(there’s a lot, lot worse as well but I’m not going into it).
It’s scary how these people wear you down to accept anything and I am now in the process of removing myself after 6 months but she got me hook, line and sinker and once she did everything changed. Without going into the full story I just can’t understand why anyone would be like this but they do make you question yourself in every single way. One minute deeply in love with you and the next day wanting to just be friends….it messes with you and these type of people (man or woman) should be put on a desert island and left to fend for themselves away from civilisation!!
I am currently in the throws of EXACTLY what this Crazy-Making article describes. It could not have been worded, nor defined better. It is very comforting, and reassuring to read this. I am not “crazy”. Thank you, Natalie. You have just helped someone through a very challenging night. Sincerely and Gratefully, Michael
To Simon and Mike, I think I speak for Nat and all the posters when we say you are very very welcome. I personally relish reading the views and experiences of men on this site.
I think it is important that we appreciate that AC behaviour is not dependent on gender. Stay with us. Once I started reading Natalies posts I just couldn’t stop! Every single one resonates and has helped me do the work on myself I badly needed to do.
We are all in a similar boat here, male or female, gay or straight. We are all a bit bewildered but recognising that we need to roll up our sleeves and get stuck in if we are to avoid getting burnt by relationshits repeatedly.
I appreciate that, Tabitha. It is kind of you to take the time to reply with your encouraging words, truly. Onward and upward!
Bewildered is such a good word. I love that song “Somebody I use to know” Esp the line “I don’t want to live that way…reading into every word you say” It really shook me up because I realized I felt that way far too often with my ex. I also realized I had to stay strong to thwart his attempts at getting me back into his web. This site has helped me so much with no contact and I know without it I would have gone right back into relationship insanity.
I have been an avid reader of this site for months. I can honestly say that thanks to the wisdom and clarity I have received from articles such as these, I was able to walk away from a situation that was emotionally draining and crazy making beyond belief.
My ex was a deceiver (possibly narcissistic) – laid on the charm, attention, flattery and affection from day 1. Fast forwarded the relationship for 3 months which prevented me from seriously weighing the red flags from the start – how “horrible” his ex was, how her family “treated him like sh*t,” how no one is ever there for him, how the people at work are bringing him down… Always the victim with everyone else to blame.
Eventually I was taken down from my pedestal when I *gasp* turned out to be human, with faults and needs of my own. Oh, and sadly without the ability to be a mind reader and know what he wanted without being asked. Suddenly I went from being idolized as his “savior” to being just like his ex and everyone else who disappointed him (a list too numerous to count). flattery and affection turned into stonewalling, avoidance, coldness, verbal attacks, and bringing up my past against me.
In the end I engaged in several weeks of tears, soul searching and racked my brain trying to figure this out – did I do something wrong? Was I not giving enough, etc. and so on. Nope. Like Natalie said, “If a car is coming towards me and the driver is someone I know and they’re not slowing down and driving straight at me, I’ll be damned if I’m going to stand there asking “Why are you running me down?” while they’re revving their engine at me and telling me it’s my fault that they’re behind the wheel and driving at me when they’ve had more than enough time and chances to stop and back away.”
I ran far away and my mental, emotional and physical health have finally returned. THANK YOU Natalie for all your wisdom and saving me from months maybe even a years worth of unnecessary drama and stress.
Thanks for the kind words everyone. I am still stuck in this relationship as it is very difficult to get away. It’s funny how looking from the outside in I know people would say to me just to dump her and move on but in reality when you are in this position it isn’t quite so easy.
I make excuses for her lying and I have called her out on her crazy making and she said it was because she didn’t want to hurt me and thinks I deserve better because. The thing is she has gone through a load of stuff in the past (not surprising considering how she has been to me) and I am a sucker for being the Prince Charming and she knows it so I get sucked right back in. Hate it
Hi Simon, I sympathise with you. I imagine you could be in a great deal of emotional pain. Unfortunately for you,if you know deep down in there that this post’s “bottom line” position is correct, then I think that you need to take your situation very seriously. There is no point in “calling out” someone on their crazy making behaviour. If your girl friend is a person who must always be in the position of ‘victim’ and you see her reflected back when you read this post, then you need to walk away. That is, if you want your life to be your own again so that you can one day be part of a relationship based on respect, care, trust and ultimately love. And yes, from the outside perspective, sooner rather than later.
p.s. you are not crazy
Thanks lizzp. You are right and it is time I get out of this toxic relationship as it isn’t doing me any good.
Dose of cold water gratefully accepted…
Simon
And adding to that I’m not pretending it will be easy but I am lucky to have a lot of friends and a good family plus I am moving soon so have a lot to focus on.
I absolutely loved this article.
I tried to rekindle a romance earlier in the year only to be constantly be met with the behaviour you describe above. Many times the A$$clown would cross my boundaries but act like the victim and bring up old $hit constantly. I was so confused about it all. As soon as I brought up old stuff though, it was a different story. No, I couldn’t talk about stuff from the past.
People like this need to be avoided and I love love love this part the best:
“Don’t try to make sense out of nonsense.”
Yes!! I put in so much time and energy into the previous A$$clown and I will never tolerate this behaviour from ANYONE ever again. It is anxiety-provoking and can be very detrimental.
I now look forward to a compatible person to form a healthy relationship with!
I love this site! 🙂