Over the years, I’ve had the privilege of having many people tell me about their romantic partners. Something I’ve noticed is that when things aren’t that great (or aren’t actually as great as they’re making out), they go to great lengths to emphasise certain characteristics and qualities. One acquaintance said at least thirty times in a recent forty-five-minute conversation that her guy was “great”, “nice” and “really not that bad once you get to know him.” While I’m sure a part of her was hoping to create a positive perception of him, my spidey sense and too much experience of this told me it’s Those Who Doth Protest Too Much.
The more you have to go to the trouble of saying something about yourself or another person, the less real it sounds. In fact, the more you emphasise a characteristic or quality, the more it begins to sound like convincing and justification. But who are you trying to convince? Them or you?
Probably the most popular examples of Those Who Doth Protest Too Much are people who keep telling you that they’re ‘honest’, ‘nice’, or even that all of their exes are ‘psychos’.
I’m going to tell you straight: I’ve never come across someone who goes on about how honest they are that’s actually trustworthy.
The more they say it, the less likely I am to put my handbag down around them or trust them with anything of importance. I’ve had dates tell me they’re “really honest” several times and all I thought was “I wasn’t thinking you weren’t until you felt the need to advertise it!”
You’re supposed to be a decent human being. The least you can do is show up with the bare basics of some integrity and be a respectful, trustworthy and caring person.
People who are genuinely nice don’t keep telling you that they’re nice. They just act nice. It’s not even necessarily that they’re shady, but what you learn about them is that instead of being authentic, that it’s very important to them to convince others of who they are. They don’t believe in themselves enough to feel that you’ll ‘get’ them without giving you regular intermissions to push their wares.
An old colleague of mine would tell stories about exes and each one was written off as a ‘psycho’. He was protesting too much! What he was advertising was that he was deluded about the reasons for the breakup and disrespectful. Either that or he was advertising that he had poor taste in women and was playing the victim.
I’m sure many are generous and giving but they’re often overgivers who have hidden expectations and need to get something back. These people are acting nicer than they feel and are often motivated to give because they feel they have to in order to feel worthy. And then to validate that worthiness, they need external confirmation from a third party that they’re doing good. Or…they just like preening like a peacock.
Another interesting area of Those Who Doth Protest Too Much is post breakup. Now, it’s not about villanising a person. However, you do know that you can call a spade a spade? Or talk about things that in retrospect you now recognise as unhealthy or at the very least as strong indicators of why you weren’t compatible, without saying “They were a good person though” or even “But they weren’t as bad as [insert someone who you have no problem saying how shady they were]”? The more you stress how much of a good person someone was or how they weren’t as bad as so-and-so, the less believable it is. And, invariably, it’s not that this person’s a villain but that you aren’t at the point where you’re ready to accept that, irrespective of who they are, you didn’t feel good.
It’s also important to remind yourself that you’re not Judge Judy, God or a higher power. You don’t get to determine for the universe whether someone is ‘bad’. All you need to worry about is judging the situation that has (or had) you in it.
They’re the worst protestors with something to hide. It may be nothing out of the ordinary other than that they’re not this exaggerated version of themselves that they’re putting across. But often it’s duplicity.
Several years ago, I was friendly with a couple who had been together for nearly a decade and married about for about a year. I kid you not when I say that every time I saw this guy in a social setting, he would stride around the room saying “I love my wife!”. Loudly. The first few times he said it, I didn’t pay much attention, although I did wonder why he was so declare-y. But after hearing it numerous times over a few months, I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was definitely up to no good. And he wasn’t. A few months later, it all came out that he was cheating with at least two other women, living part time with one of them, and handy with his fists.
Unless we’re networking for business purposes, we don’t need to go around pitching ourselves (or others). It’s also important to recognise that, to be fair, when you have the verbal trots about someone it’s because you have a vested interest.
Often you’re not ‘done’ yet, and it may even be that you’ve carefully constructed your reality of things so it’s becomes imperative to get everyone else on side.
Take the acquaintance I mentioned at the beginning. This guy’s like a bull in a china shop when it comes to boundaries and has been physically and verbally abusive. She thinks she can change him by telling him about himself periodically, cutting contact and then giving him another chance. When she told me that I and her various friends and family have him all wrong, I said, “Okay then, tell me three good things about him.” After a minute of ums and waiting, we both laughed.
I get it. Sometimes we’re really eager for our friends and family to like the person that we love. However, you have to wonder:
1) why you have to keep emphasising certain things,
2) why you can’t just let people see for themselves, and
3) who you’re really trying to convince?
Stop ‘advertising’ and just ‘be’ or let things be.
If you have to advertise someone else, let it be a warning to you that you don’t trust enough in these people’s judgement or even the ‘subject of the ad’ for these people to figure it out themselves or for the person in question to demonstrate it themselves. It’s also safe to say that when you’re genuinely happy with someone, you have a happy life that reflects this with happy experiences to talk about that would illustrate this person without you having to say “They’re a nice person, you know!”
The best way to convey the person you are is to be the person you are, living congruently with your values and doing things authentically as a natural extension of living your life in a way that makes you feel happy and good. Stop advertising and start living.
Your thoughts?
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As usual, dead on the money with this one. When someone says “trust me”, I run hide the good silverware.
Hi Nat
I hope you and your family are well 🙂 I still read your posts and the blogs and thought this one was so pertinent to me thesedays. I’ve met and been dating (for 7 months now, YIPPEE) a lovely, grounded and rounded, happy, fun, loving, comittment-healthy man and notice that I dont have to give the ‘low down’ on him all the time. When folk ask after me and him I find myself just simply saying ‘yeh, its all really nice’. I now see how simple life is when intimate relationships are healthy, there’s no big dramas to report on and try to explain my way out of all the time.
Forever in your debt Nat, and of course to all the readers and writers.
Big hug…..Kim X
Two things I learned when I was introduced to people at large;
People who are really nice straight away are always the ones with very nasty suprises waiting for you – the warmer and more charming, the nastier that suprise. The people who are in no rush to gain your trust, respect or love have a lot more to offer you providing you are worth it. This is why they don’t need to get in early, get what they can before the illusion they have created dissipates and you clock on to who they really are and what motivates them.
Secondly, the most dangerous people (physically) are, 99 times out of 100 the least likely to act ‘Alpha’, ‘bad’, ‘hard’ or troublesome – because they have learnt the hard way that with great power comes great responsibility and they have nothing to prove.
I have observed this after a lifetime of being around criminals, professional fighters and some of the strongest men (athletes) in England.
Strength, Health and Wisdom…
@Willybone I agree with you “People who are really nice straight away are always the ones with very nasty surprises waiting for you – the warmer and more charming, the nastier that surprise. The people who are in no rush to gain your trust, respect or love have a lot more to offer you providing you are worth it.”
People who are really nice straight away are always the ones with very nasty suprises waiting for you – the warmer and more charming, the nastier that suprise.
^^I am not too sure I agree with this. I think it ultimately depends on your idea and concept of what nice is. Some people are just pleasant and naturally friendly, but maybe you are referring to the ones who go out of their way to do nice things?? Like they are trying too hard? I do agree if someone is way too nice at the beginning, chances are they could be fake .
We all want to make good first impressions.
Yeah with you on this Samantha…you can still give benefit of the doubt because lots of people are genuinely friendly. I am however wary of over justification..’ I like to treat women well, am a gentleman,a trustworthy person, etc etc ad nauseum. Somehow, somewhere the red flag rises for me now.
Always the question.. What are their actions showing, consistently,week by week.
“I like to treat women well, am a gentleman,a trustworthy person, etc etc ad nauseum. Somehow, somewhere the red flag rises for me now”.
And so it should, Lynda! My last (epiphany) ex texted the following to me less than one week after our first date: “If you ever have a bad day and need someone to be there for you do just call and I will try to be there. I like to be as supportive in a relationship as I can and every now and then I am the one who needs someone to be there for me”. It was a totally unsolicited statement, and he reiterated it later when we spoke on the phone and said much the same thing again during the first few weeks we were seeing each other. Week by week and month by month during the year-long relationship that followed, the opposite increasingly proved to be the truth as he moaned on and on to me about his numerous misfortunes and stresses but accused me of not being “up” enough for him when I mentioned a couple of small problems of my own. When anyone Doth Protest Too Much about something, especially if it seems to come out of nowhere, in my experience it certainly is a red flag worth noting.
Hey Radio…our stories so similar!Are you sure you don’t talk with a Scottish accent…?
My guy would say ‘As I ‘ve told you once before there is no malice in me…’ and ‘I can sometimes say things that may hurt or be misconstrued but there is no malice in me…..’
His verbal abuse of me was the worst I had ever
experienced in my life, apart from at the hands of my Mum.
I have worked the bulk of my life , sometimes in fairly senior roles and for the first time was experiencing having to work to a supply/short term contract. In short I could lose my job at any time. One of his last insults to me was that’ I was a failure in life,at work…that I couldn’t hold down my job, etc. He repeated this. Then he said ‘You are a failure… I am a success’ This abuse would go on for hours…
In relation to the article, at the beginning of our relationship…he ‘bigged’ me up, seemed so supportive. He had however told his friends that I came from a posh area in the city where I live rather than where I actually come from.. I , what I was, was not enough for him.
What is helping me, as well as this site is my own reflective reading Bancroft’s Book ‘Why does he do that’ looks at verbal abuse from the emphasis of the woman caught up in a relationship with a verbally abusive partner.
The private/public split of these men is really chilling, they often have public personas to maintain and at the beginning I think I fell for that. Another line from the book I remember was something like’ An incisive mind coupled with insecurity makes for a very dangerous man’.
I have this in perspective, (I think), most days… I know I am hardworking, deserving of happiness and peace and flawed. I will be wary of someone who hoists me on(and off) the pedestal, at whim. Great to get your comment again Radio. I appreciate you.
Awesome. As I’ve said to all these yahoos, “Why can’t we just BE??” Still working on my picker. Its getting there.
I can’t even quote a part of this post in my reply. You explained every aspect of this topic so well it’s packed with powerful insights. I’m in awe of your ‘hot writing streak’!
You go Nat!! I’m soaking it up and feeling refreshed and thankful. 😀
Hits home with me! I married at age 19, which was almost 29 years ago. Still married but struggling. I didn’t know who I was, so knowing how to ‘just be’ wasn’t even on my radar yet. Recently I’ve been striving to be more authentic because I know it will lead to happiness much faster than avoidance and denial. Your last paragraph makes a nice affirmation. Thanks Nat! 🙂
Oh yes, I recognise THAT. I met my ex at 22, and even then didn’t know the real me, largely as a result of a terribly over-controlling mother. When I finally started to develop the confidence to be myself, I slowly realised that my then-husband had MANY characteristics I was always explaining away – “he’s jet-lagged” “he’s over-tired” etc (he was actually a borderline alcoholic) Three years ago I decided I’d had enough and I left him (I was replaced pretty quickly) Since then I’ve had a few casual relationships, but am gradually getting clearer boundaries so it’s easier to spot when things aren’t right, instead of being grateful for dating just about anyone and then having to justify it somehow. It’s only taken me to reach 50 before working this out!
I will be 48 in February. At least we’re figuring it out now! 🙂
“Several years ago I was friendly with a couple who had been together for nearly a decade and married about for about a year. I kid you not when I say that every time I saw this guy in a social setting, he would stride around the room saying “I love my wife!” loudly. The first few times he said it, I didn’t pay too much attention although I did wonder why he was so declare-y, but after hearing it numerous times over a period of a few months, I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was definitely up to no good. And he wasn’t. A few months later, it all came out that he was cheating with at least two other women, living part time with one of them, and handy with his fists.”
this paragraph was so vivid to me, it speaks volumes. Thank you for this post, it’s enlightening! I felt a little teary eyed when i read the last line of this but… I cry easy, lol
thank you though. I’m finding your blog very insightful and a delightful read!
I fully agree that actions speak louder than words. I made the mistake of losing a good guy because he didn’t say the things I wanted to hear even though his actions showed he cared loud and clear. He would call me in the morning to see how I was doing, donated a big chunk of money to my charity, planned nice dates, but because he didn’t gush over me with words I let him go. Lesson learned.
@Feast to Famine wow thanks for posting that.
Feast to Famine, I too have let go of a good guy. He was just an easy to be with, non-drama queen type of guy. Being with him I felt good about myself and he respected my boundaries (the very few I had)….but I dumped coz I thought he had no ambition in life- how sad is that?
Feast To Famine, I wouldn’t be so hard on yourself. Just because someone is a good person doesn’t necessarily mean that they are right for us. If you think about it, men are supposed to do things like call, plan nice dates, be decent people, etc. He’s not the only man on earth that has good qualities, so if he wasn’t right for you, it’s okay. Sometimes it can seem like there are so few “good ones”, but I promise you, that’s just not true. *Big Hugs*
Plus, you can only act on what you need and know you need at the time. I had a solid, lovely boyfriend in my early 20s, but simply felt too young to settle down. I can be hard on myself for not holding onto someone who may (or may not) have suited me now or I can back myself for being honest about my strong feelings and needs at the time. At the time, you probably did need more verbal reassurances than he gave, and now you don’t…because you’ve grown up.
Feast
Actions do speak louder, but words are important too. There should be words AND actions, in alignment.
When my brother was going through a marital crisis I told him that he MUST reassure his wife, and tell her he loves her, cares for her, wants to stay married to her. Even though he was already putting a roof over their head, looking after the kids, taking them all on days out, being dependable. As Natasha says, husbands and fathers SHOULD do these things. The “extra” – the “romance” (for want of a better word) is important too.
I was with someone who was very consistent and dependable but never said he loved me, or reassured me, or even that I looked nice. I eventually assumed he wasn’t that bothered and was surprised at how upset he was when I broke up with him. I was EU myself, though,and I’m not sure that any amount of validation from him would have been enough. Looking back, he wasn’t a cold fish but he was not demonstrative owing to his own troubled past. Knowing what I know now I would handle it differently.
Conversely, I was with someone who used words to great effect (he was a writer). despite the love letters and the book he put me in – he still dumped me in a cafe after giving me a speech about one of his exes.
We all make mistakes. We all get another chance, I really believe that.
Feast… I was married in my twenties for thirteen years to a guy who was decent and emotionally available and non abusive. Yet I ended it, because he wasn’t tender or verbally romantic . I felt I needed more and I did. I still know I do.
I have a good, brother/sister relationship with him and we brought up a brilliant son. There were good times in my marriage but not enough. On that we were in agreement. The times you spend in sustained partnerships, however, are not wasted. Sometimes things end for true and reasonable reasons. You may have made the wrong decision, but don’t beat yourself up about making a decision based on how you felt.
“On the very shady side of this issue are the people who go out of their way to create a particular image of themselves – they’re the worst protestors with something to hide.”
Very true! I have an utter assclown of an ex that was a master at this one. Homeboy was even posting Facebook updates detailing what a great, altruistic human being he was. I mentioned this in another comment, but it’s so funny, it bears repeating – the day we officially rekindled, he posted “It’s all about the man in the mirror.” Please. The only thing this fool did with a mirror was admire himself. He had also insisted that he was volunteering at a hospital…errrrrrrr, he wasn’t.
Another great example of this was last year when I met a girl that a good friend of mine had recently become friendly with through work. This girl went on and on (and on) to me about what a “great friend” she is and how she’ll “do anything for a friend”, etc. Naturally, this seemed suspect to me. Why say it when you can just be it? Well, my friend’s boyfriend works in a different branch for the same company – wouldn’t you know, this chick who was yapping about how loyal she was attended a company cocktail event and hit on the boyfriend! When I say “hit on” I mean “blantantly propositioned him and said my friend would, ‘never find out’.” When my friend confronted her, she claimed that she was so inebriated that she had no recollection of it, apologized profusely and then went on to…reiterate what a great person she is. Needless to say, my friend was not impressed. Soon after that, the girl quit, never to be heard from again.
I have to laugh Natasha! My ex AC has a Facebook fan page all because he writes for a small town newspaper and NOW calls hinself a stand up comedian (he only posts fabulous things about himself). We have to have dated the same moron…did you live in the Midwest by any chance??? Hahahha! And of course his new gf wrote a blog on how nice she’s been to people (including me!) and how mean thry have been to her! Hahhaha…I really have to laugh since finally all tgis is so humorous to me.
And Nat…New Year’s resolution…I will just be and just live! This lady will not protest too much! Love it!
Facebook really does have a lot to answer for! It’s a godsend for all Those Who Doth Protest Too Much to carefully craft that highly selective glittering image of themselves or their relationship before putting it out there for public consumption. I speak from experience having been taken in by my ex’s hype on FB about his “fun” life – in hindsight, not the word I would have used to describe it. Someone on here once called it “Fakebook” – very apt! I’m learning to keep my eyes and ears open these days in all areas of life, online and offline, and to heed those “spidey senses”.
Hi all,
Well, it’s been over two months since my breakup and I’m doing really well (he left me for someone else and moved in with her one week after breaking up with me). I do stick to no contact, but have slipped up occasionally by checking out his/her Facebook.
How does this relate to this post. Well the posts that they put on Facebook are so sickly sweet, they induce my gag reflex. Gems the have put on Facebook include such posts as “Basking in the shade of our love” (with a pic of them in the park); “Daddy girls first day back at work – I miss her soooooo much”; “He is so the most loving man I’ve ever known!”; “Dinner with my baby. Bliss!”; “He is my happily ever after!”; “I’m so happy!”
The constant need to boast on Facebook about how much in love, bliss, happy they are speaks volumes to me. Most healthy, secure people don’t feel the need to constantly brag on Facebook about how wonderful their life/partner/relationship is. I’d be interested Natalie on what your take is on this? Especially, since I know that the Assclown is in some serious money trouble (think court summons) and he messaged me yesterday, telling me he was thinking about me. Go figure.
LA, I think there is A LOT of protesting too much going on with him. She’s probably just getting swept up in the infamous Fast Forwarding, but I think it’s highly shady that he’s moved straight in with her – that’s obviously a big step – especially considering that he’s financially embarassed at the moment. Add in the fact that he’s messaging you at the same time?! As Nat would say, “open and shut case of assholery”. Plus a wh0le lot of this:
https://baggagereclaim.co.uk/when-someone-keeps-presses-the-reset-button-on-your-relationship/
So glad you’re doing well and flushed him!
here is a facebook quote from i guy i briefly dated. it was similar to something he put in his profile:
“I love the entire human race unconditionally. All people fall into only one of two categories: those who are my brothers and those who are my sisters. I don’t feel this way every day, but I try, and frequently succeed. ”
Should we consider the tripping of our gag reflex to be an amber flag?!
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@Karina – That’s hilarious! What a couple of tools. I’m not a Midwest girl, but it’s interesting to see that assclowns are so similar…you’d think they’d have their own regional flavor, no?! 😉
@RadioGirl – I totally agree, spidey senses should always be heeded! A lot that goes down on Facebook that will have them tingling, that’s for sure. So much protesting too much for one website I think haha!
@Natasha…hence why I moved back to my beloved NYC! Couldn’t stand all that “niceness” that came with the Midwest territory-no offense to any Midwesterners out here, I have an awesome physical therapist who’s from Michigan- but I prefer the realness if you can call it that of my city peeps. As for regional flavor…nah, my mom always said those types of men are shaped and trimmed with the same scissors! Ha!
Karina, I love your mom’s line!! 🙂
Natasha… I laughed until I cried at that ‘Man in the mirror’ comment…it’s like Nat’s description of this guy at the party marching back and forth… ‘I Love my wife…!’like some sick Mantra!
I once knew a guy who had a ying/yang tatoo on his wrist, when I was with him he told me(and all of his Facebook aficionados)that it was his’embracing of light and dark,sun and moon, woman/man in his life!’ When we split up, he had the tatoo modified into Tibetan scroll because of his new gf’s religion…last year I heard that he had further modified it, with new pics and post on facebook into a ‘medieval stainglass window’ because of his new squeezes interest in ‘medieval interiors’. I laughed until I peed. Truly. He was the original shapeshifter….
The sad thing about that guy is not only is he a shape shifter, but it gives you a real clue into the way he will flex to get what he wants and how little “real” identitiy he has. Someone like that is sure to be an energy vampire sucking all your energy out of you because they are as blank as a sheet of paper inside.
Too right Josie, he did that for sure.. but it was a long time ago and I can laugh about it today and at myself for being part of it.
That lesson is learnt.
Lynda from L, that tattoo story has me laughing my head off!! He’s like two jacked up relationships away from ending up with a bunch of random scribbles. I like to think he’s going to the same tattoo artist every time, who must be like, “DAMN SON. Get it together.” 😉
Love the title of the article, the original quote is one of my favs. Everything you said is so true it’s not even funny! One of my friend’s does this all the time, and I get it, she wants us to like her man, but it seriously makes me wanna puke. I have never liked my friend’s boyfriend because he’s disrespectful and treats her like crap, and I kept my mouth shut about it until I witnessed him trying to berate her in public like she was a child. All the things I’ve ever thought about him she says whenever she’s angry with how he treats her. But in the short times in which things are good, I have to hear about how much better of a man she makes him, and how she sees the good in him and that nobody else gets to see the real him…and then I think, “Uh hell yea we do, you should come check out the view too!” We don’t see the good because it ain’t there…
I never thought about it that way though, do people who do this not trust our judgment? Do they really think that everybody else is just plain wrong and they’re the only one whose right? I don’t get it…
Sigh. Memories of my ex on the phone: “You’re my favorite girlfriend.” Me: [awkward silence] Him: “Of course, you’re my only girlfriend, heh heh!” There were a lot of “I only like you,” “you’re the only one for me,” declarations thrown my way that decreased my faith each time they happened.
I never felt a need to tell him I ONLY wanted him. That was a given. I was like, I never worried about being the only one you liked until you kept emphasizing the point!!
My sister is about to get married. I noticed the difference in the way she spoke about this guy who is now her fiancee. I’d ask how things were going and she’d just say, “Great” or “Really good.” Before, she has had bfs that were not ACs but also weren’t totally compatible and she’d say things like, “Great, you know, he’s one of those guys that doesn’t talk much, so it’s interesting” or “Oh, really good, you know how guys are, x and y.” She was so upbeat about rolling the great into the you-know-how-guys-are that you might almost missed that she was saying it wasn’t totally great and no matter how gaily she said it, she was still mentioning something that was on her mind.
My last experience with the AC was the first time I felt I had to sell someone to my family. Because of my low self-esteem, pre-BR knowledge, etc, I thought this was what people do. Everyone has little niggling issues, right? But when people ask, you say everything’s great, right? I always found myself struggling to say good things. I would confine it to: “He took me here this week. We’re going there next week. He got me x for this occasion.” I never said, “Oh, he’s wonderful.” Well, okay, early on I did when we both did the GMATs for fun together. But I never could bring myself to say, he’s a really great guy.
Wow Natalie, you are so on fire…I feel like I’m about five days behind although it’s only been a day. I’m guilty of protesting to loudly and being the recipient of those who doth protest to loudly. For me, which is why I’m behind, it boiled down to what I gave to him in hope of getting something in return. I’m still struggling with cutting out the middle-man, and giving to me directly. But, I still protest too loudly. He said we were soulmates. Pftfs.
“The best way to convey the person you are is to be the person you are, living congruently with your values and doing things authentically as a natural extension of living your life in a way that makes you feel happy and good. Stop advertising and start living.” I’m trying, I’m so trying. I’m getting there with your help…! I so want to be there.
Me too, RG! We’re getting there! It’s great! One thing I’ve been doing that’s been helping a lot is watching and stopping short any bullshit, victim-y, ‘I’m bored!’ ‘I’m stressed’ ‘Mah!’, crappy-scenario thinking, and I’ve been cutting down on the grand labelling of myself and others, the bad judgemental stuff (as distinct from the good, necessary judgement) – it’s tiring and distorting, and I’ve figured out it means you then have to go into what Nat called ‘advertising’ as a way of counter-balancing all the mega-statements in your mind: Because you’ve made up some statement about how you’re a crap person or how you royally screwed up more than anyone in the history of the universe etc, you need to then start saying how kind, thoughtful and decent you are. Same applies to how you see others. Much better to do as Natalie says and try to live as simply and honestly as you can, and leave the final verdicts to the TV hosts, audience votes, legal systems, and the gods. Keep everything else as working knowledge – you know enough information to act, but not enough to stamp truth.
So completely true, if you’re a good person you don’t need to constantly tell everyone about it.
“…you aren’t at the point where you’re ready to accept that irrespective of who they are, you didn’t feel good.” LOVE THIS. So true. It doesn’t matter anything about them, even if they are a “good” person in everyone else’s eyes, if they leave you feeling drained and confused, they aren’t right for YOU…next!
Also liked the bit about naming three good things. Ha, ha! That settles it right there. Easy way to gauge your true feelings about someone and if there really is potential there.
The thing about naming three good things about them is that you have to name three good things about them in relation to yourself. It’s nice if someone is a wonderful person to his coworkers, best friend, mother, father, sisters and brothers, but the most important factor is how he treats you. I had to learn that the hard way as I once dated a mama’s boy who treated his mother like she walked on water. But I, on the other hand, found myself with nothing but the leftover scraps of attention that he could afford to give. I was so focused on how respectful and caring of her he was and saw that as potential for how things would be between us. I didn’t realize that it wasn’t that way and that it would never be. In relation to other people I could name several good qualities that he had, but I could only name one (he was nice) that was of any benefit to me, and it was not significant enough to continue the relationship any further.
The best quote the ex eum mm used to love to say was: l treat others the way l want to be treated, and l want to be treated the way l treat them. l never understood this quote, from him, because it soon appeared to be a good mask of shady behaviour.
Wow,thinking back,I have met many a man who would tell me how honest and forthcoming they were,it was like are they trying to convince me or themselves…The first time they say it you think ok thats nice,but by the 13th time,my eyes are rolling and Now I cant wait to get the hell out of there…
So true, I recall advertising my ex ac to my family, blabbing on about him they never did like him and truth be told I think I was trying to convince myself as well what a great guy he was.
I have always thought if someone goes on about something such as what a great friend they are etc. usually means something is suspicious.
The last Eum I dated used to go on about one of his harem members how he had never wanted to date her never saw her in a romantic light now he didn’t say this just once he said a lot. He also said the same was true of his friend who also had never seen her in a romantic way. I kept thinking why does he keep telling me this, it puzzled me.
One day we all happened to be a the same venue me the eum the harem girl and the other guy. Well it was very eye opening. The ex eum spent all his time glued to her side that one would have thought that they were on a date rather than him and I and the other guy there did treat her as though there was no crush and he didn’t need to say a word about it his actions said it all.
The harem girl gives him enough crumbs to keep hanging on in there even though she will never date him funnily enough.
Great post and so true.
“I recall advertising my ex ac to my family, blabbing on about him they never did like him and truth be told I think I was trying to convince myself as well what a great guy he was”.
Same experience for me too, Tulipa! I’ve definitely Protested Too Much about several exes to sceptical and unimpressed family & friends, and the last ex Protested *So* Much to me about his “Unique Selling Points” (pretty much right from the start) that it was almost on a par with a charm-laden salesman trying to offload a second-hand car with a dodgy engine and fake paperwork.
Great post, Natalie – yet another scale has fallen from my eyes on my personal journey. There’s getting to be quite a lot of scales piling up on that road now, and I have to keep focussed on clearing them all away so that I can continue the onward journey unhindered. Not finding that an easy task at all – in fact it’s incredibly hard-going – but your guidance along the way helps so much, Natalie. Thank you.
Just realised my last eum used to go on about his integrity and how much he had and prides himself on it yet in my journal I came across a long list of stuff he had said but never followed up at the end of the day this is a list of lies showing zero integrity.
Lol maybe I should have made career in advertising.
Another great post. There were so many secrets, lies and manipulations of the truth made from my x. There were also the times where …he did protesteth too much… including on issue of having sex with other men. So I also had suspect that he was “on the downlow” – meaning secretly having sex with men.
Actions speak louder than words? He works out-of-town and always has a male roomate. A few assignments ago it was like he was inseperable from the guy roomate – we would have our morning conversation by phone & the guy was always there… One morning we talked while he was in a convenience store – I actually heard him command the guy to “Bend Over” in the store. Another morning he said to him “Where are you going…Partner?” Wow, the guy was actually giving us a moment of private conversation & my X demanded him to stay at his side!? One evening…. on and on….. Then when I would ask my guy about it… it was generally a weird… version of thou protesteth too much.
My x is a sexual predator. There were other times on phone when I heard oral sex noise in background. One night, several job assignments ago, he was talking to me on phone and asked me “what are you wearing? I miss you so much” and I heard a woman – in his bed- say: “I’m leaving.” He got off phone quickly with me and called me back next day…and said it was the TV. It was like mind Fk-ery, because he would deny if I asked, and I never knew if I really heard it, was imagining it, or justify/erasing/not believing it.
I’m 5 weeks of No Contact. My mind is not on Auto with obssessive thoughts of him. I no longer examine and disect events except when I share them here. I had been preparing to get strong enough to leave him for several months prior to NC. It was an intense and sick union – him and me, and now I have broken the bond., and my life and my self are improving. I will never make these kinds of boundary-busting mistakes again. Integrity, truth and actions mean every thing to me. I never want “thou protest too much” to be part of my relationship again.
Dang, Angel face! I thought the ex I had, the bi who had the ex gf who was really a man was bad, this dude ex of yours sounds simply horrible.
And yes, by what you said, your ex is bi, too. If a man is very anti-gay that means he’s gay on the down low, absolutely no exceptions. And all that bunking with a man? You know the rest. And other women, too? My gawd! Good luck staying away from him!!
Isn’t it interesting how easy it is to come up with examples of people who do this? That’s how true it is!
I’m embarrassed to admit that I’ve done this myself. It’s a form of insecurity. When I wanted to be something I wasn’t (strong, assertive, tough), I felt I had to proclaim those attributes from the rooftops, or no one would actually notice I was those things. As it turned out, no one noticed anyway, and me advertising it just made the lack all the more apparent.
When I was online dating, one thing I always noticed was that guys who claimed they knew “how to treat you like a lady,” were the first to try to hit me up for sex. More than once, I had to ask, “What kind of ‘lady’ do you take me for?”
As it so often does, it comes back to actions speaking louder than words.
I was just telling this to a couple of individual people the other day. One who was perusing me and the other a friend who was always talking about the woman he was seeing. It was nice to read this article and know that I was so on base with what I was saying.
Another great read!!!
Wow that was a great post, unfortunately a lot of the lesson was for me. I grew up in a very dysfunctinal home with pretty low self esteem, emotionally banged up by my dad, (you know the scoop..never good enough). So I could see me in your post. I have been the one who said I was nice and had integrity yada yada, mostly in work situations when I felt I was doing my best and it wasn’t good enough. I also have been the one touting how great my ex was to friends and family hoping not only would they buy it but that I would as well.
Thanks for the turning the light bulb on over my head and the wise words for my recovery journey.
After working in the finance service industry, I assume everybody is lying to me. In London dating / meeting new people is hard, I tend to watch the body language really hard to see if it matches to what is being said, taking into account different cultures and my own shortcomings / assumptions. Sometimes I find that when people are “advertising “, they are trying to change and hoping you will help them get there. Making allowances for my EU man was exhausting, when saying ” I was wrong, he is an ass and I allow him to treat me like dirt because of my pride and loneliness “, well I did not want to advertise that did I, my ego did not allow it.
Thank you so much for this particular post!
“Probably the most popular examples of Those Who Doth Protest Too Much are people who keep telling you that they’re ‘honest’, ‘nice’, or even that all of their exes are ‘psychos’.
I’m going to tell you straight – I’ve never come across someone who goes on about how honest they are that is actually trustworthy.”
This is such an important message for me – and one I am only just now starting to ‘get’.
I have had several “relationships” with EUM (some married, some separated, all messed up), and I have experienced; The One Who Is Most Honest And Trustworthy And Different From The Rest (he SO wasn’t), The ‘All Women Are Crazy’ Guy (excuse me, but, a couple of days with this man and ANYONE would be foaming at the mouth), and, most recently returned to the scene, I AM ALPHA MALE – HEAR ME ROAR! *Sigh* Give me ‘fancy a cup of tea luv?’ guy anytime…
Point is… I was ADVERTISING for these jerks. No surprise that they showed up for interview!!
@Christina
“When I was online dating, one thing I always noticed was that guys who claimed they knew “how to treat you like a lady,” were the first to try to hit me up for sex. More than once, I had to ask, “What kind of ‘lady’ do you take me for?” Hilarious!! And totally on the nail!!
My ex used to boast a LOT about me in public in the beginning so he used to tell me and so did his friends. i always thought it was a little over-the-top … he didn’t really know me at all, we hadn’t been dating too long. at the very beginning he used to boast about me TO me. sometimes he’d boast about me when we were in a group of mutual friends as if i wasn’t there …. he seemed overly concerned too of what his friends thought of me and didn’t want them to think ‘badly’ of me. of course after a while (and not too long a while) he changed … the boasting about me turned into covert and overt insults in private and back-handed compliments in public … when someone praised me in front of him in public he’d seemed to find a way to counter their compliment. my confidence began to vanish. i couldn’t understand how someone who liked (‘loved’ according to him) me so much could rapidly change. why?
the more i think about it (i’m trying to stop this, so not worth it) i think he was using me as a smoke-screen of sorts for i dunno what. i often felt he was using me as some kinda trophy -> ‘look i have a girlfriend and SHE’S GREAT! his public persona seemed so different to his private one after i started to get to know him properly .. the fun party guy attention seeker was often extremely moody, sullen and critical in private.
perhaps he was a narcissist ..
once he realised i wasn’t this perfect ideal i was quickly devalued me leaving me constantly feeling like i wasn’t good enough by finding fault in almost everything i did.
now i’m getting back into dating i hope never to encounter one of these types again.
thank you NML for this article,
Robin, been there. You describe it succinctly. I also haven’t fully figured out what was going on in my last relationship in terms of the swift changes. I felt I had to ‘step up to the mark’ a lot. He’d say ‘You did brilliantly there!’ when I had interacted with his friends as if I was a child at a concert? He totally lived having someone ‘on his arm’, almost got off on it.. These guys stop you being yourself?
Like you, latterly, I could do nothing right. I had definite feet of clay. Maybe it’s that the idealised version of ourselves that they create in their heads fails…maybe they idealise all women?
Your post addresses something I ‘m still trying to make sense of before I move on.
I’ve had this done at least once. My rough idea of what goes on is that they become blinded by the chemicals, then, when they wear off, realise they aren’t quite as into you as they’d thought/hoped, and are too cowardly and angry (from disappointment) to act on that and end things in a dignified way, so they become stuck, start to hope that you’ll change, watch you intensely and are ready to pounce and criticise at any moment (to prove to themselves that they are right to have doubts). But, of course, the tension makes them more likely to be irritable and find fault. Horrible spiral.
Now some of this is just about incompatibility. We do have to have test-runs with people, to some extent. It’s not pleasant when someone doesn’t end things straight away, as soon as they know they’re not in it, but often you can’t be too hard on them, since it often takes a while to recognise and act on things, especially if they’ve idealised the relationship, and, especially, if they hate confrontation and have that whole ‘I am a good person’ (advertising) stuff going on, on top of this. People can be wussy.
On the other hand, there is a type within this group where the issue isn’t so much about compatibility per se (ie communication style, shared interests, common values, life purposes and beliefs etc), but about the same old intimacy sh*t they have with EVERYONE. It’s so painful to recover from these relationships because it’s so nice to be adored and it’s so shockingly devastating to have that taken away, and not just taken away but replaced with criticism/rage/contempt/withdrawing. There’s a whole lot of stuff we could go into about why this happens – from childhood sh*t, to general anxiety, to personality disorders, to specific fears, right to the awful, but true: it suits them and they love the high of the early phase.
But, the simple fact is that these types of people just do what they do, and it can lead nowhere good. If it helps, trust Natalie: this is not overnight behaviour. A girl/boyfriend tripping over on the footpath or speaking too loudly in front of important people or asking for affection at the wrong time does not bust a healthy person’s emotional levees.
Anyway, be gentle with yourself. But don’t try to fully understand it, which is a sort of taking responsibility for something that it not yours.
Thanks Elle, your comment;
‘…but about the same old intimacy sh*t they have with EVERYONE. It’s so painful to recover from these relationships because it’s so nice to be adored and it’s so shockingly devastating to have that taken away…’
Yeah..he was a serial offender on this score. I was a serial offender in taking it. Classic EUM/EUW Mexican standoff. Enrico Morricone playing in the background.We loved our drama.
I’ve been posting for nearly two years now, enjoy your stuff immensely but where I stumble still…and you’re right to mention this….is in the search for explanation. It is taking responsibility for something that isn’t mine. Yet at moment, firm NC, no addiction to getting back into relationships..yet(not ready, not even close.)… I find I still search for core meaning to what happened.
He was a ‘ritual’ repeater. I found out he used same words,places,events to woo women, those before me and after me, no doubt. I was actually the opposite of ‘special’ to him, but he did have ‘special’ down to a finely honed art. I fell for it and that is why the increasing verbal abuse was so heinous to me.
My own stuff too, I am working on daily…why would I want to be a trophy? My Florencing, my acceptance of drama…
yes, I do trust Natalie and thank God for her and my thanks to you too.
Hi Nat and Ladies
I love this topic. Like, get out of my mind.
I’m on a dating site and a guy wrote me a short note of introduction. Older man, 53. Or am I being paranoid.
…”Beside intellectual stuff, I like to have fun with order & organization because I do not tolerate heavy drinkers, drug users, nor nasty people.”
Is he telling me that he is a heavy drinker, a drug user and nasty? He doth protest too much? Why would he mention these things? Like, what is this guy advertising would I be too paranoid not to reply? I follow the Rules and aren’t responding to his email tillMonday. Thank you.
Flower,
Sounds like on the second date he’ll disclose a story about a love or family member with alcohol and drug problems.
What pings for me about what he wrote is “I like to have fun with order and organization” and “I do not tolerate.” There’s something priggish and controlling in the way he expresses himself imo. Also, if order and organization is not your idea of fun, maybe take a pass. (Hey! Let’s alphabetize the spices and stack all our coins by denomination and date!)
@ixnay
thank you for your insight, very much appreciated. SEE? In the past I would have ignored that line he used. “Beside intellectual stuff, I like to have fun with order & organization because I do not tolerate heavy drinkers, drug users, nor nasty people.”
I choose to empathize the positive. I, too do not tolerate heavy drinkers/drug users nor nasty people but I don’t need to say it I need to SHOW it. I will pass on him -also he is long distance, smh!
I am going to call him out on projecting the negative. Dating is the process of discovery and I’m more aware of men laying all their negative and neurotic cards on the table.
Hi Flower White,
Sounds to me like he is likely a regimented control freak with a bit of OCD. It`s quite normal not to tolerate addictions and nasty people. It wouldn`t occure to me to spew it out as an introduction though. Anybody watched “Mrs Doubtfire” ( my kids favourite film ) where in an interview a stern and nasty looking older nanny says” I don`t do laundry, I don`t do cooking, I don`t do nappies”….ect. Would you hire that to look after your kids? 🙂 . Seriously, I hate dating sites !
Hi Runner Girl, Mx and everyone,
As always, these postings resonate greatly with me and I “see” so much of myself (and of others) in them as well. I am slowly learning.
Runner Girl, yes, I am also trying to be authentic and genuine in both my everyday life and in my relationships with others and it is one of the hardest things I have ever tried to do! Part of what makes it so difficult, I think, is realizing that not everyone else is as concerned with being genuine, but rather, presenting an image of themselves to others…and, I quite agree: anyone who says “I am this” or “I am that” is really saying just the opposite instead!
Mx: one of the things my separated EU MM said to me was “I believe you are either honest or you’re not honest, there is no in between”; later, when I asked him if he had mentioned certain aspects of our relationship to his wife, he said, “I believe in honesty tempered with love” and I remember thinking at the time, “Uhh, okay, but isn’t that in opposition to what you said earlier”…
Yuck. What on earth was I thinking?! I look back now, with some (thankfully) perspective and realize, “I was in fantasy land”…and what an awful realization to have, but it was the truth, only I just didn’t want to let myself see it at the time. Wow, what we put ourselves (and our bodies, hearts and minds through) in order to maintain the illusions sometimes! Simply amazing really.
My best thoughts to you both, many *hugs* 🙂
i’m so guilty of over thrashing my ex to my friends. i know well why this is. it’s because i don’t trust my own judgement. i broke up with him(first time i ever ended a relationship)and it’s as though i need my friends confirmation(and online strangers)..its like i neeeeed to know that i’ve made the right choice…it bothers me that maybe i ruined for myself a stab at happiness and that perhaps i was being too harsh..and the woulda, shoulda, couldas, last chance saloon..when realistically the relationship was chock full of problems and he didn’t treat me well but more than anything..i. did. not. feel. good. about. myself. around. him.
but what it boils down to is that i DONT trust my own judgement. at all..(childhood issues again, inability to dicern between someone’s good behaviour and bad behaviour,lack of clear boundaries,zero self esteem)when i should really because i cannot deny how i felt and i don’t need anyone elses confirmation of how crap i felt in that relationship .. i’m the only one who knows the ins and outs of that.
wow what a true what an eye opener. actually i needed this wake up call. <3
“it bothers me that maybe i ruined for myself a stab at happiness and that perhaps i was being too harsh..and the woulda, shoulda, couldas, last chance saloon..when realistically the relationship was chock full of problems…”
Oh wow, this was me exactly! The doubt and the excuses, only looking at the 3 good things that happened in all the time I spent with him instead of the 1000 things that made me feel uneasy and uncertain. I also like you am guilty of trash talking the “ex” to my friends and looking for support as to justify that I had acted in the right way.
You’re also so right about what you said in regards to trusting your own judgments. Obviously you knew something was wrong and off, could prove it one hundred times over. Your judgments are a lot more accurate and spot on then you give yourself credit for. Don’t listen to that voice telling you you messed up or you should have done a, b and c, differently etc which may have lead to a different/happier outcome. That’s exactly the same voice that told you to ignore all the warning signs and hone in on the “good” instead while you were with him. We need to learn to silence that annoying voice.
OMG Emma, I`m just the same. And though I now KNOW I should be trusting myself ( have evidence from the past, that my observations are spot on and BR knowledge ) there is some odd pull, for the lack of a better word towards doubting myself. Maybe it`s the case of old habits die hard, and this low self esteem is entrenched in me from childhood. I read BR daily and a couple of weeks ago I was still absolutely overwhelmed thinking am never going to get there. And just two days ago work situation arose where someone tried to bully me into jumping to their beat in a nasty way, shouting at me at the top of her loungs because she screwed up and I wouldn`t drop everything at the weekend to unscrew it. She gets very moody at times and is a generation older than me and I was tought to respect my elders so for over ten years I have tolerated her behaviour ( which wasn`t quite as bad as the last incident, but bad enough ), also explaining to myself, she must be stressed. This time I reacted without thinking, told her I will not be treated this way and will be finishing doing business with her. Had a tiny twinge of did I overreact? OMG will be losing money, afterwards, but quickly thought, no, nothing in this world is worth being made to feel like crap. It also dawned on me this morning that this is how my Dad treated me, and that`s exactly how he shouted! I feel great, relieved and so empowered and like a different person now. Hold on in there!
I have had a friends with benefits situation for 3 years with a man after discovering that he appeared more interested than he was prepared to commit to. The issue is that like this post – he tells me we are great friends and that he really trusts me etc etc… But I took the sex out of the friendship recently to discover that it is just a case of he who doth protest too much! The daily intimate texts are already dropping back and it appears the friendship was faked for very irregular shags given we live 5 hours apart. Am devastated and grieving the loss of a very good friend – who apparently doesn’t even exist! Its so humiliating and I feel so stupid!
Jane,
Apply major TLC to yourself, allow yourself to feel as angry and sad as you possibly can, work it out yet edit his phone entry as Fake-friend-looking out 4 his benefits only- nothing else – avoid ( too long maybe?)
You are human, to stop further humiliation or feeling stupid, DO NOT CALL – sober or drunk, text, poke on FB and if feeling lonely go for a walk, call a friend and if feeling randy use an electrical tool ( less problematic than a FwB sometimes). Me ( I have been in your situation) , I would rent Justified box set, well written, Elmore Leonard dialogue and Timothy Olyphant looking fine in a hat and shooting a lot of people would make me feel good for a little while. Or the Good Wife if you want a complex heroine who deal with a bad deck of cards with grace and comes out on top.
Friends with benefits is such a tricky situation because for the most part there is always one person who wants more. Very rarely is it a mutual agreement between both parties and very rarely are both people on the exact same page. Really, this guy was never your friend but just used the word because there really is no word to describe what you were. You’re neither in a relationship nor are you friends, you’re in this kind of middle place, neither this nor that. It’s confusing. Don’t feel humiliated or stupid because although it may have taken you some time to figure it out you HAVE figured it out and now know better and can learn a great deal from this experience. The truth of the matter is you’re better off not having someone like this in your life, someone who would use you and feed you lines just so they could get what they want no questions asked, investing little to no effort whatsoever. You deserve someone who wants to be with you completely, who respects you and instead of saying “all the right things” lets their actions speak for them.
jane
it’s stating the obvious but three years is entirely too long to be having casual sex with someone.
I’m not sure what the rules are, but I hazard that it shouldn’t go on for more than a few months.
Friends don’t have sex. elementary, dear watson.
Jane, it must hurt a lot that he’s moving away from you…but therein lies your answer. I’ve never done the friends with benefits scenario because I know my heart and mind couldn’t handle it…too confusing. I also think it maybe the ideal refuge for EUMs and EUW’s…
Reminds me of that French Proverb…’In Love there is one who kisses and one who turns the cheek’
Someone is always going to want more?
I agree with Artemesia, cut contact. He was doing you no good at all.
Marilyn French said in one of her books that the pill lowered the price of sex from marriage to dinner, in a way not a bad thing, women can explore their sexuality without having to get married first. I kind of agree that Friends with benefits is not for everyone but the system is good to EU ( of whatever gender). I did it once and I could not hack it, was not me, made me feel used, and I could not separate my feelings and sex. I have not seen the movie Friends with Benefits, with the pretty people, that I assume will fall in love – this being a Hollywood movie. Not like mine where I ended up an angry and mental wreck, the best example of the over-emotionality of women who can’t handle the premise – this is just sex.
I don’t believe friends with benefits is a post-modern way of dating, but you can fool yourself it is until one of you gets hurt. It’s not just women. I have held a guy’s hand and told him “let it go, she is not into you, you are going to make a fool of yourself”. We all want emotional connections, sometimes we have to take what is available but you can get by on second rate for so long.
Jane,
Probably when I strip everything away from my last relationship with the EUM it amounts to nothing more than friends with benefits.
He also said what great friends we were how much he valued me etc etc but once the sex was gone he more or less vanished in spite of his words that we would catch up etc.
I took him at his word but all effort was from me. Me ringing me organising the meet ups and absolutely no effort on his part.
Please go no contact I wish I had listened so I didn’t end up feeling like a puppy dog looking for attention from the master and often humilated. You have assumed correctly now there is no sex he will not be a friend. It is amazing what bullshit they will feed you to keep the sex going.
I wish you luck but NO CONTACT does work and you will feel better.
With due respect, I don’t think FWB can work at all. I don’t think you can have a close relationship (“friendship”) and sex (“benefits”) and still pretend it’s not a romantic relationship, and both partners are fine with it. I’m convinced there is always some kind of power imbalance involved.
If people are into casual sex (which I am not), I think the only viable way might be the more or less anonymous one-night-stand (where both partners agree right from the start to NOT stay in touch afterwards). Or maybe some kind of equal/mutual booty-call situation (also with no contact inbetween, no emotional intimacy or anything like “friendship”, because in my book that always ends up being manipulative).
Amen EllyB! If a man is your friend, he’s not trying to use you for sex. When I was in college it was right around the time the “friends with (generally jack sh*t for the woman) benefits” was becoming the thing to do. Oh the tears that were shed in the name of these “friendships”! I feel like my generation (I just turned 30) learned a whole new jacked-up way of relating that caused a lot more harm than good. This goes double because it suits the ways of the AC/EUM to a T!
“It’s also important to remind yourself that you’re not Judge Judy, God or a higher power – you don’t get to determine for the universe whether someone is ‘bad’ – all you need to worry about is judging the situation that has or had you in it.”
Ah, so true! After everything fell apart I was so intent on making it seem as if he were still a good guy, reminding myself of instances where he’d been great and wonderful (mostly to other people) and then blaming myself and wondering if I had overreacted by telling him I was done. I often always give people the benefit of the doubt because I don’t believe one thing can define a person in their entirety. Your point is a fantastic one though as I see now that I should judge a person by the behavior they put forth in my presence and that I have the right to do so. I shouldn’t be so hung up on gathering evidence from other aspects of this person’s life, basing an opinion on times they have been exemplary in other situations I haven’t witnessed etc. It doesn’t matter essentially that they he can be a great person to someone else, or do something nice what matters is who I see in the present moment. Plus, why are we so determined to place this person on a pedestal when they do act in an appropriate and compassionate way? Should this not be expected behaviour regardless? When someone of the opposite sex has been nice to me I would always think “oh wow, what a great guy,” when really I should only expect to be treated as such and not surprised when I am.
It’s weird because the guy I was “with” would always (in the beginning) say he were an “asshole,” almost as if to kind of say without saying “hey, just so you know, I’m shady and if something happens you knew before so I can’t be blamed.” Yet when the topic of sex came up it was all “See, I’m a nice guy, you can trust me.” It’s so interesting the excuses you come up with (for me I brushed the asshole comments aside because this guy’s sense of humor was very dry and difficult at times to grasp so I was never sure if he were joking or not and of course-I never asked.) But I’m also proud in the sense that I knew something was wrong, from the very beginning I could feel it even though I didn’t have the words or the understanding to know what was going on which now due to this blog I do.
I think for the most part that I just liked the idea of being liked and wanted by someone. It wasn’t necessarily anything else I am starting to realize. Feelings may have developed after having spent more time with him but I question that all now. I question how much of it was real for me and how much was just liking to be around someone in that way which in turn made me willing to except all the shadiness, the minuscule of good making up for it in my mind. I obviously have a lot of work to do.
The more you have to go to the trouble of saying something about yourself or another person, the less real it sounds. In fact, the more you emphasise a characteristic or quality, the more it begins to sound like convincing and justification. But who are you trying to convince? Them or you?
^^Yes, I am a firm believer in this thought with anyone not just significant others!! I am glad that someone else thinks this too as I am cynical. My ex was like this. He always told me that he was a nice guy and when we joked around and I told him that he was mean, he got really defensive. For a while I thought it was just one of his annoying catchphrases that everyone has, but I really felt like he was trying to convince himself that he was a nice guy for whatever reason. This is one thing that I have been wanting to say to him, but it has been 5.5 months of NC and I don’t care to say it to him anymore. I will let him figure out for himself the hard way.
Yeah thats true. Pretty much every man I had involved myself in said their ex was “physcho” and as it turns out it was the men that were unhealthy. It seems so obvious now that im older wiser and educated about healthy behaviors from your site and ot
her means, but as a young adult with a skewed perception of what was healthy, bought into it, in exchange of the attention of companionship, at its worst. Now when I hear men talk about their crazy ex, I know they are a walking wounded and know my stance.
The part about the generous, overgiving those-who-doth-protesteth too much really resonated with me because…I might be one of those overgivers, and I really got a mindful when you said why the overgivers talk so much or give so much. My question is: what is healthy giving? It’s in my nature to be generous and giving and most of the time it’s a natural urge, to do things for people without being asked, to take care of them without being asked, to buy them food and medicine without being asked…you get the point. However, if these are natural urges and not covert attempts at manipulating those I want to like me, where do I draw the line?
Breeze
if you are genuinely happy to do it, have the time and energy, and expect nothing back, not even approval, then it’s not a problem. It’s more a problem if, as Nat says, you are acting nicer than you feel.
A friend of mine is constantly offering to do things for people, feeding them, doing favours and then … gets worn out, stressed and complains about the very people she is helping. I still think she’s very kind but sometimes I wish she would just take care of herself first! This may not apply to you of course, but what applies to us all is – don’t let someone take advantage of you.
Jane,
“Am devastated and grieving the loss of a very good friend – who apparently doesn’t even exist! Its so humiliating and I feel so stupid!”
Please, please don’t feel stupid or humiliated! You are worth so much more than that… please believe that… or at least try! I have spent so many hours, and cried so many tears, over the loss of a ‘relationship’ which was really nothing more than ‘hopeful smoke’… It FEELS real and so the grief is real… but please know that you were not foolish for trusting in it… it was designed to make you feel good… attention heroin… I always think of the scene in Finding Nemo, when Dory and Marlin encounter the angler fish with the light to attract them and the sharp teeth, and when they see what it really is, Marlin says, “good feeling’s gone”. It’s not your fault sweetie… they hide their teeth for a reason…
@ Lessie – hey girl! “I believe in honesty tempered with love” . Oh really? Well it sounds okay in principle… I mean, brutal full on honesty can hurt feelings can’t it? So ‘honesty tempered with love’, might be okay…. might be kinder… oh, unless you’re using as a rationale for lying through your teeth of course!! Weasel words!
When someone pulls the “to good to be true” card they usually aren’t. They have the “used car salesman slime” on them..and actually that’s an insult to a couple of decent used car salesmen i’ve met. Unless you are doing a sales presentation for a prospective client, the proof of who you really are is in the action pudding. Wisdom as always, NML.
Foxy you’re right my most recent ex, who lied about his ex gf who was really his ex bf (!!) came across as Mr. Generosity and Mr. Nice Guy who brought roses to me everyday and paid for everything. 3 months later I discovered he was a hot tempered bisexual boozehound.
Now? Ha. I ignore what men SAY I watch what they do (person to person, that is. On line I don’t go far when they write the ‘wrong’ things).
Love this post Nat,
While Christmas shopping with a friend, I got a free make over at a beauty department, I got told I needed the latest special line erasing moisturizer, a primer, a concealer, brightener and a foundation just to look “ natural”, roughly £ 200 on my face in the morning, “ I shall think about it” I said, looked in a mirror and did not look natural, I look like I had a lot of stuff on my face and I thought about your last post.
My parents made sure I did not get too big for my boots by using negative reinforcement – you are an idiot, useless, not worth much and you will end up as nothing. I ended up with no self-esteem and a self-confidence in the minus league. Obviously if your parents talk to you like that they must know something as they are your parents and figures of authority who know what they are talking about. As an adult, I always thought people could see I was useless and worth nothing so when they treated me like a decent person I used to tell them I was useless, listing all my insecurities. It drove many of them nuts. When I gained self-confidence I stopped doing that, but it took years. It took me a while to figure out that my parents were human, with failings of their own, and a capacity to vent their frustration instead of working them out.
I am always amazed when adults live by the lies their parents told early own and not wanting to challenge those lies out of love or respect or maybe fear that the people to whom they depended on for love and shelter lied to them.
Flower, I agree with ixnay: …”Beside intellectual stuff, I like to have fun with order & organization because I do not tolerate heavy drinkers, drug users, nor nasty people.” He has past negative experience with this, sound extrememly regid and judgemental And he sounds OCD> Don’t go there! Not that I’m judgemental.
First of all –I call Facebook, Brag Book!
Second, my most recent “on line” date kept saying what a gentleman he was and then after our 4th dinner date we ran into a woman he knew on the way out, at a table of other woman.I stood there invisible while he spoke with her for at least 5 minutes without acknowledging me. I did speak up after and tell him how this felt. He apologized and proclaimed ingnorance and said he would not do it again. What does that say about a man? SHOULD I GIVE THIS ANOTHER CHANCE?
Third, a person very close to me does major PDA with whoever she is with. A former Easter her and hubby where all over each other and by May their 20yr married was over. (found out that she new it was over when we were together) I remember when I was going through my divorce, her and the new BF would invite meet them out for dinner. Mutiple times they sat across the table from me entwined! No holding hands under the table but his arms wrapped around her while she leaned into him and her stroking him. A little to much…It was so Awkward! He just dumped her for another who he was cheating on her for (sad). It’s about proving yourself to the rest of the world. It’s is the “public persona” like you are a celebrity and you are the spin Dr pushing your persona.
Love this post!
@Sharon
thanks for taking the time to reply to my query about the on line guy. I won’t be “going there’ but, since he is 53 years old I am going to give him a bit of a reality check about it, and pass on him.
Now…after four dates your date does not have the grace to introduce you, a woman that he may hope to love and make love, to a gal-pal after talking to her for five minutes??
“Gentlemen” have manners and etiquette dictates him to introduce you to his friend. Anything else is rude and passive-aggressive.
I think that was a damn sick test to see how much crap you will take in the future, something tells me this man has a harem of women. BEWARE. Personally, I’d cut my loses and move on but I am vetting men for marriage…and I won’t take any crap!
Your friend sounds very needy and insecure. Birds of a feather flock together, our top five friends represent our character…how does she represent YOU?
Hey Flower, I’m 52. Could you give me a reality check too?
Robin and LyndafromL,
I had the bragging about me, early on and to his business buddies, too and found it hard to compute with the jerk comments in private. In front of his closer buddies, though, he seemed to like giving me a little knock. I remember feeling like being out with him was a performance.
One party in particular, a get-together for city bigwigs at one of their homes, he was very physically demonstrative with me when he was in front of the group. There was a woman there that I had met before through his circles. I had had a weird feeling about her before, but hadn’t really registered. At one point in the party I found him talking to her alone, her sitting on a footstool, him squatting down before her with his legs wide open, him holding the footstool, their knees almost touching. I got the worst feeling, because this guy is the neurotic king of body language and using his physicality to communicate, usually very careful with his gestures, though touchy with women. It was like he was spreading his legs to show her his big penis.
Of course you can’t really say anything about that; it’s just body language, but I was suddenly revisited with the weird feeling I had about her before.
He noticed I was upset; it led to an argument where I really felt patronized. But he kept saying, “I paid attention to you all night. I was really careful. Everyone knows we’re together. I make sure everyone sees we’re together.” I remember thinking, that doesn’t address what I’m concerned about. And then he said, “She’s not even attractive. I’m not attracted to her at all. I mean, if you’re going to get jealous, what about Soandso? or Suchandsuch? They’re more attractive.”
The way he insisted that he made sure everyone knew we were together (which he implied was to give ‘a signal’ to any women who might be interested) always felt weird.
I have no doubt that my own insecurity led me to be hypervigilant about him and other women. I never did find out if there was anything going on under the surface. But like you, Robin, it felt like there was, and all the bragging and PDAs in public confused me for months.
Magnolia…yeah return to jerk in private, so difficult. Hear you..soul destroying. My take on this, as follows;
These guys are so insecure (although it’s covered up with the accoutrements of status,verbal dexterity, business success)that they can’t actually believe they have found themselves in a relationship with a reasonably attractive, intelligent woman. At this stage they don’t know whether we are emotionally available or not. At this stage they don’t care.
And we might not know either…complex?
We are idealised for a while,complimented, made promises to, we respond in turn. Some of them are repeating a cycle they have done for years. We, too, up our game,show off verbally, look good, are what they want emotionally, sexually. supporting, listening etc. Some of us are repeating a cycle too.
After all, we are at this stage, fully believing we are now in relationship Nirvana.
Then….drum roll…it happens. That promise that he made…he doesn’t fufill,we get angry, he feels chastised,we act up,he acts up.
If we were both emotionally available…this is a hiccup, not a storm.
Emotionally available people, fall out, sort it, discuss, move on. Learning occurs.
Emotionally unavailable people, Florence,blame,pull off pedestals,abuse,retreat,reset,get paranoid, snoop,pull the shutters down,use sex as a weapon…..and on, whatever tool is in the toolkit?
My recovery is present, in the now, I have to on a daily basis recognise what I am doing. Feeding myself false info about the EUMS strengths/abject failings is not on. Accepting false info about my strengths/abject failings is not on.
I have, at present a need, still, to analyse previous situations, and
I ‘m with you in this Magnolia…the premise is to learn and grow.
I wish I could find the line between analyzing for truth and future learning and the nefarious pathway of obsessive rumination!
Perhaps I ‘m being too hard on myself…ruminate…come back to now. Love your posts.
“My recovery is present, in the now, I have to on a daily basis recognise what I am doing. Feeding myself false info about the EUMS strengths/abject failings is not on. Accepting false info about my strengths/abject failings is not on.
I have, at present a need, still, to analyse previous situations, and
I ‘m with you in this Magnolia…the premise is to learn and grow.
I wish I could find the line between analyzing for truth and future learning and the nefarious pathway of obsessive rumination!”
This applies to me! But I am getting much better. Essentially, I am too busy and excited about life to give these men as much thought as I did a while back. Plus, I am, as I said in comment above, less interested in making big calls about myself and others. What I am looking forward to is not being quite so analytical when I am in the process of meeting someone and hanging out with them etc. I feel like I can describe the garden from the garden wall very well, in part as a way of not jumping over the wall! I guess this all comes with confidence in knowing you will exit the garden if you need to, and so you can actually relax and enjoy it while you’re there. I get why I am like this (an over-thinker) – not least because I had a fairly wacked-out childhood that needed a lot of dissecting in order to understand it (because the alternative was feeling hurt, confused and unprotected), but I’d LOVE to let go of some of this now, now that I don’t need to understand in the same way I did. I like this idea of Nat’s – the top level.
Getting there, I think!
Yeah, I think that’s what I please need some help on – what I advised above about understanding to some extent – enough to know whether something is good for you – but not so much that you (a) ruin the potential of a relationship (by constant surveillance/ analysis); (b) stay in a relationship due to analysis paralysis and (c) essentially take on someone else’s crap once the relationship is done (the big ‘why?’).
Sorry to go off topic, but it’s related to my need to categorise things, like advertisers and protesters do.
Rereading this post again reminds me of my current ex who was a guy 8 years older than me. We met through a dating website and the one thing that really caught my attention was that he didn’t believe in traditional gender role. I’m not a fan of cooking per se because by the time I get home done with myday I am exhausted. Well after a year and four months on and off the one thing he had the nerve to protest about and I quote him “in the year we were together you only cooked for me THREE times.” my jaw dropped as I never thought me being in the kitchen was such a priority to him and how him paying for my dinner when we went out was an issue (mind you, at the time we met I was unemployed and looking desperately for a job). Well needless to say that after he said he just wanted to be single, he starts dating some other girl and still wants to have me a his booty call and I say, keep her and I hope she cooks for you all the times when you ask her to! Moron!!!
This guy needs chained to his own kitchen sink, methinks , Karina!!! What a tosspot….
It’s amazing Lynda how that was the main thing he complained about. He even used to ask me half way through dinner at a restaurant if I would pay for half of my dinner! And to think he got my sister a wedding present, because I took him to buy one!!!
I met my ex on a dating website. He talked the talk about honesty and integrity and all such great things. We joked about the dating disasters on our first date and I said ” unreal that people lie about their age, if they start off with that, what can you believe them in?” he absolutely agreed. I should have heeded my own advice when it emerged later that “his friend who helped him with his profile made him” be 5 years younger on it! And when he talked about still socialising with his ex I saw reddish amber but he assured me they are just friends. Well, yep, it can happen but I told him dodgy situations with exes are not for me. She proceeded to hang around like a bad smell, asking him about progress of our relationship, texting, inviting him out, turning up with a bottle of wine ect when I was not around and I kept accepting his justifications thinking that he wouldn`t be telling me all this if he was up to no good. He said he is just nice to her because he`s sooo nice. When he told me that he took her out for an early breakfast on a Saturday morning, having been unavailable to me to even text good night the night before my gut turned over and screamed -run!! I got up to leave and said all this is not for me. What happened next is what Natalie is talking about here in full glory. He was HURT DEEPLY, and was a good guy, he was honest and honorable, being a dutiful neighbour and a friend to her. I on the other hand had trust issues that awere going to ruin our relationship and he was not sure he could live with me being so unfair and suspicious blah blah blah. Imagine, I was relieved to have him back ( WTF! that is a classic mindf*ck ! ) It pains me to this day that I took his BS and let him manipulate me like this and feel so goddamn bad about myself.Having your boundaries violated feels so awful. But, as I`m writing this now I`m finding it quite comical( in places) and not beating myself up over it anymore. Feeling better and stronger every day, hugs Natalie and big thank you!
Sushi,
your post was classic. This is a line from an ex I dated on a website he frequents “I beleive in honesty and integrity, doing right by myself and others, I only wish I had someone who felt the same way”.
I say this is classic because on his page he outs himself at 43 when he is 48. He is actually engaged and living with someone and I am sure she doesn’t know he is on dating sites. However that said, he was always protesting what a “good guy” he was when in fact he was dating quite a few people as well as me. It makes you laugh really but such a statement in an internet profile rings warning bells. DING DONG!
Hi Josie,
you are right, internet classic indeed, but the integrity/honesty hook was served up to me in person rather than in the add so it looked more real. He either really believed in what he was saying and was in deep denial about his behaviour ( turned out to be an alcoholic in denial, they have destorted reality and a lying thing going on ) or he was a great actor. It wasn`t a simple “you are not what your add says” conclusion. The apparent sincerity with which he was explaining/justifying his behaviour and his highly dramatic upset at me for “doubting ” his integrity confused the hell out of me. But now I know, if confused – look at actions. Let them speak. It`s better to trust yourself blindly and even risk making a mistake in misjudging them than let someone f*ck with your brain.
Oh Sushi did we date the same guy, I have the misfortune to live on the same street as my EUM/AC. All the time we have been together he has kept talking about his ex, how she is evil, he hates her, she was always phoning, and of course I only heard his side of things..he even asked me to text her to tell her that we were getting married, so that ‘she would finally get the message’, fine but he hadn’t even asked me at this point, needless to say I didn’t but I was in high alert.. Just this weekend he called me to say that his ex was popping round for half an hour to give him some money she owed him, but he was telling me as he was being ‘upfront and honest’ . 3 hours later she was still there and the house was in total darkness. We had an arrangement that same evening which he obviously didn’t keep as he was otherwise engaged, I did message him to ask why he was late, to which he replied he was on his way down, another hour later..she is still there, so I said ‘how can you be on your way down when she is still there?? ‘ well that was it then.. I had trust issues, he didn’t have to justify himself to me blah blah.. he went absolutely crazy, and said ‘well I was going to come over but because of your behaviour I am staying home now’ I had also asked him why all his lights were off, which he denied!!! My imagination may go mad sometimes but there is nothing wrong with my eyesight.. what were they doing ? having a seance? I think not.. funny that both of their cars disappeared at 11pm for him to return shortly after.. my gut tells me that they dropped her car off and came back in his.. call me suspicious but the vehemence with which he always used to speak of her made me think ‘he doth protest too much’
2 days later I have not called or texted, I am not passing his house in the car its parked in the next street, i have taken him off my Skype. But sad as I am there was plenty of code red behaviour before this incident and I also feel somewhat relieved that this has happened as I always felt it was a case of when rather than if, he went back to her. Also I know that if I hadn’t stumbled across Baggage Reclaim during an Amber Alert I would be texting, calling, and trying to get the ‘last word’ Natalie and all of you have saved my dignity, and I know I’ll heal.
I have done a lot for him (perhaps a little too much ‘he’ll see how great I…
Hi Sarah,
maybe it was the same guy….:) huh, what a thought. They are like a common weed and pop up everywhere. Mine was also very negative about his ex. She was nosy, boring, irritating, stupid, he didn`t like her, I was soooo in a different league than her, but all that did not stop him from continuing to see her and also lying to me about doing it. You clearly see black, they tell you it`s white. The accusation of having trust issues hit me where it hurt, because I do have trust issues but not with AC`s but with myself. I don`t trust myself enough. I was also clearly not trusting him for a good reason though, because his behaviour was shady. You stood up for yourself, that`s brilliant. I let him mess with my head for a further several months.
I questioned my Ex AC about what happened on a boys weekend away, (my gut was in overdrive) and he threatened very coldly to leave me if I didn’t trust him. He became very angry with me and belittled me about having trust issues then walked out my door and wouldn’t talk to me for a few days, effectively teaching me not to question him. I found out a few weeks later that him and ‘the boys’ (most of them married) went to a brothel that weekend in question. He did protest too much because he was guilty as hell. The threatening to leave me, while boasting what a trustworthy guy he was, was a smokescreen (and a mindf*uck). If someone overreacts or talks too much about their character, you better sit up and pay attention because something likely is coming down the pipe.
hi jennynic,
I can relate so much. Being bullied into submission, not allowed to have questions, raise issues or have any demands or standards. The overracting is a good one to watch for, I agree. When I was in a middle of the ex drama my head was so all over the place I couldn`t process the info clearly so didn`t act on my gut or conclusions or anything. Just kept getting more confused. Which is how they like us to be so that they can manipulate us more effectively.
I was also bullied into submission, couldn’t have any opinions.. He also told me things which he later denied. Stupid man.. He had sent me text messages, and then denied what he had said.. BUT I HAVE IT IN WRITING. Part of me thinks I should have challenged it at the time, but a good friend pointed out that they will tell a lie on top of a lie, so its fruitless. The only reason I have stood up for myself is because of this website. Its like a light was switched on. Just wish I had found it years ago, as my recent relationship was short (but an epiphany), but I spent 8 years being messed around by another AC. 8 whole years!!! Thank goodness I am not that person anymore. Thanks Nat & all the women (& men ) here. It helps to know that I am not crazy. Almost looking forward to dating again (not ready yet) just to try out my all new boundaries. Next time someone tells me their ex was a psycho or awful, or they are sooo over them.. Hmm protesting too much. Flush!!
I love this! Spot on again Natalie. I know a couple who is ALWAYS showboating about how perfect they are as a couple. They will open gifts to one another–with an audience around. They are always commenting about how “perfect”, sweet, lovely, love of their life kind’ve relationship they have. Even their FB status updates go on and on about how lucky and in love they are. It is really quite unnatural… especially to those of us that have our ups and downs in relationships and don’t feel the need to advertise them. Well, after 11years of marriage…”perfect wife” filed for the “perfect divorce” becuase she had been cheating on “perfect husband” who had several “perfect girlfriends” he hooked up with during the week while he was at work in another city. Ha!
Nat, this hits the nail squarely – we do this – lie in big and little ways about our mates MORE often than not. I did it for twenty years about my x. It’s for protection, of him, of us, of the relationship. If others know, it hurts our credibility, it puts a dent in our armor, and we might have to admit to ourselves we made a mistake, or are fallible, or have poor self esteem.
Too often than not we fake it to further sweep under the rug what is obvious to others. It may not even been obvious to us- but just lying under the skin of our fragile egos and “if I admit it I’ll have to deal with the consequences” imaginary world. It’s basically a protection mechanism, at least it was for me. My family saw it, others saw it, but I wasn’t ready to deal with it until we were married twenty years, and much hurt to my kids and the relationship was done. If I had faced it -and no way was he gonna face it without my bringing it to the fore- I could have maybe saved the marriage. Lesson learned painfully
This post really speaks to my online dating experiences. You gotta laugh at everyone (male and female) who trot out a list of traits: “I’m kind, I’m honest, I’m considerate…” Oh? And you want a GOLD STAR for that? I mean, aren’t those *basic* human traits that should be a given? Sheesh.
And yes, as Natalie points out, the ones who squawk the loudest about those types of qualities always seem to be anything but. I had a recent suitor go on about how Kind with a capital-K he was…until he “kindly” let me know well into our relationship that “Oh, by the way, I’m polyamorous.” Mind you, he didn’t volunteer the info — it was only after my Spidey Senses led me to ask if something was up. Yes, he was kind in many other little ways, but ultimately not where it counted — treating me with care, respect, and openness. I ended it on the spot.
Elle, Lynda, Artemesia, Mx and All,
Elle, I loved you what you wrote here, it very much resonated with me and sounds SO much like my most recent ex. It is eerie to me at times, the many similarities that I see in these various postings.
Lynda, your words captured perfectly the rationale behind such behaviors of certain men. Like so many others have said here, I am also seeking to have better understanding of “why” he did what he did and your words have helped me to have more clarity.
Artemesia, yes, as adults we are under no obligation OR responsibility to believe in what our parents said to us as children. It has taken me a lifetime, up till now, in fact, to understand this. We are not defined by them or their words to us, thank goodness.
However, it can be an ongoing struggle to accept this and not let it determine your own thoughts/feelings about yourself.
Mx, oh yes…the words of a cheating man…he resides, I believe, in a land far far away, called, “Wanker Land” 🙂 I agree, it does “sound” kind, at first, until you actually begin to think about it and then realize that it was, sadly, yet one more justification for his own actions and I was all too eager, to see “the good” in him.
Yuck. Looking back on all this, I often feel as if I was in that movie, “Invasion of the Body Snatchers” only instead, it was my brain that was snatched and the process of being able to think reasonably intelligently, that I allowed to be taken from me…never again!
Many hugs to you all 🙂
Wanker Land – lol
Flower White —
No need to tell the online guy about himself or anything you intuit about him. Your intuitions are in the service of your own best choices, not to cast yourself as truth-teller to a total stranger.
ixnay
You’re correct, I don’t have to tell the on line guy that I think he’s a control freak and won’t be dating him. Its hard to resist, though. But I won’t.
@Magnolia: iv experienced similar to you. my moto is always trust your gut. if i worry my man is being shady and it’s in my gut then it’s pretty much time to go because i dont trust him. with no trust there is nothing.
i believe that if a guy is constantly negatively referring to a woman he associates with it’s for two reasons:
1) he’s secretly attracted to her.
2) he’s two-faced and b*tchy.
both scenarios are not good.
the first scenario reminds me of when i was 12 when i had my first crush and my friends used to tease me about it…i denied it furiously of course (eww he’s gross/disgusting/has koodies)out of embarrassment and fear of him finding out but it was obvious. it’s playground philosophy.
a two-faced b*tchy bf btw is soooo undesirable. who wants a b*tch for a bf? not me ty very much! 🙂
@Elle and Lynda from L
ty for your comments.
i always knew i could never live up to the ‘pie in the sky’ idealized image he created of me(for whatever motivations he had)and this has got nadaaaa to do with me.
i am not perfect, why should i beat myself up for having flaws like every other human being on the planet?
Lynda, my heart goes out to you. i just hope you realize that what he did and does is not about you. It does hurt big time when the ‘adoration’ rug is ripped from under you and it is confusing as hell (don’t i know it?? verbal abuse, check! 😉 ) and the whole rinse, later and repeat. but you could be like Halle Berry (and even she’s had man trouble)and they would still find something wrong.
it’s better to have a man you can be yourself with than have to change to accommodate i’ve learnt. there’s not a lot more depressing in life than having to suppress who you are.
hugs all. 🙂 x
Holy cow, this was the idiot I dated two years ago, who kept telling me over and over “what a good man he was….” When I heard that, my spidey sense tingled, but I ignored it.
I’ve been away for a long time, leading a non-drama life with all of Nathalies tips 😉
But I still managed to get into a not so healthy realtionship and I recognize what you posted. It has been over for 6 weeks now and I still (!) talk about him as ‘he was realy a good guy, just a bit sensitive’ … Yeah.. sensitive where it concerned himself mostly..
He from the very beginning always felt the need to say how much he valued respect. I remember wondering why he needed to say that all the time and it did ring a little alarmbell. The respect also mostly applied to himself. Another guy who I dated years ago, constantly said he wanted somone positive and how it was so important to be positive, happy, merry, positive. The guy turned out to be as depressed as they come.
It seems to me that these men say things that they want to BE or RECEIVE. Not what they can give.
Truthhurts,
“Another guy who I dated years ago, constantly said he wanted somone positive and how it was so important to be positive, happy, merry, positive. The guy turned out to be as depressed as they come”.
You’ve just described my ex to an absolute tee! He was nearly always feeling “very down, very stressed, very tired” (his own words) pretty much from the start. And then after the first four months he was telling me he liked his partner to be a bit more “up” than I was apparently being (not surprisingly, I had started feeling rather down myself whenever I was around him)!! I should have got out then, but we decided to continue the relationship. It went on for another 8 months or so until it imploded when he started being emotionally unfaithful online with his ex gf and other women behind my back and upped his passive aggressive behaviour towards me. He also made a big thing of how he was teaching his teenage daughter all about “commitment, consistency, consequences and fidelity”. A coincidence that he turned out not to actually live by any of these things himself? I don’t think so.
“It seems to me that these men say things that they want to BE or RECEIVE. Not what they can give”.
This is *so* true! As I said in an earlier comment on this post, within a week of our first date, he was texting to say that he liked to be as supportive as he could in a relationship and that “every now and then, I am the one that needs someone to be there for me”. He was actually showing me very early on who he really was (i.e. an emotional vampire), if only I’d had the BR tools to recognise it. Ah well, at least I do have them now.
As Fearless would say… pffffftt!
So true! My last guy’s big thing was being appreciated and yet I seldom received any affirmation or thanks from him. The one before was all about respect and dignity, and yet he was the cruelest person I’ve ever had any romantic involvement with – I mean the zingers he came up with were ovary-ache hurtful.
The two guys before – my stable relationships – never articulated or staked out what they wanted or expected from me or a girlfriend in general. They rarely, if ever, talked about who they were or what they stood for. They were good guys, we liked and loved each other, and we got on with things.
A lot of this talking about who we are and what we’re about and these attempts to get credit for basic decency is a great way of creating emotional inauthenticity, uncertainty and distance. It’s bull. Thanks Nat – these posts lately have been getting me to a couple of really important lessons.
This post speaks volumes about my relationship. The worse my relationship got the more I would tell anyone who would listen about how independent i am, and how much i love myself, how much i love my then bf and how i am not the girl that would take crap from any man. In reality, I was trying to convince myself. I didn’t want to let, even my closest friends, in on the mess that was my relationship because I felt like I was failing because it was failing.
the less my actions reflected my words the louder I spoke but the more insecure I felt. The more confused I was about why I wasn’t happy and why he wasn’t treating me right, the more definitive statements I would make about who I was, what I wanted, what my relationship was etc….
My ex used to always boast about how much money he was going to earn, after he finished school. Yet he was a complete tight arse espeially with money.
OH MAN. spot on.
This reminds me of the one ass clown who got under my radar. I don’t consider the 6 months I spent with him a waste because I learned every red flag in the book!
He definitely doth protested too much. I should have known the one day that this discussion occurred:
me: I’ve been to that restaurant before, let’s try something new!
him: OK what did you have in mind?
me: well I saw a review online the other day…….
him (interrupting): hey- I just wanted to let you know. I am NOT a momma’s boy and I am NOT critical of anyone. I am THE LEAST critical person you’ve ever met.
We hadn’t been discussing ANYTHING even remotely related to this, ever! It came completely out of left field. I thought it was weird. But when he would cancel dates to watch Golden Girls with his mom (who lived almost across the road), let her cook for him and clean his house etc.. I started to realize.
She also once told him he had a fat ass so I knew who it came from when he started criticizing my perfume, my glasses, my nails, my hair, my education…. these critisicms coming, by the way, from a college dropout who made $10 an hour and lived in a house his parents rented for him…across the street. ahem.
very good lesson Nat!
‘This reminds me of the one ass clown who got under my radar. I don’t consider the 6 months I spent with him a waste because I learned every red flag in the book’
Much as I feel a bit of a mug for being taken for a ride your quote above sums it all up. I’ve chalked my recent relationship up to experience, and it was my ephinany!!
I got a big laugh out of the Golden Girls thing! Some of these guys are sit-com material in themselves.
And I know what you mean about having these relationships be learning experiences. Before discovering this blog, I was so clueless. Now, I look back on my relationships and they are textbook cases of unavailability on both sides of the equation.
Nat’s given us the equivalent of an Audubon field guide to relationships. “And here we see the elusive Future Faker, fluffing his plumage to attract Miss Independent as a mate…”
The joyous simplicity to be found when one finally stops making excuses has been a revelation to me, and I can’t imagine how I could have comprehended this properly without this site. Like many others I credit BR with saving my sanity, and so much more.
I had already blindly found my way out of a long term non-relationship and to NC, but was going around in circles trying to work out what the hell had really been going on, and WHY? Thankfully, I stumbled upon this looking up passive aggression and can only say hallelujah! Finding that the reason for the endless limbo was that it was an arrangement and not a relationship has truly released me. Who knew people did this stuff – not me until now.
Having to face up to the fact that it wasn’t just because the EUM -or EMU, love that typo – was all piss and wind, but that my enabling behavior was equally responsible, has led to profound internal shifts. A childhood involving being taught NOT to take care of oneself (very different from, and more damaging than not being shown how to take care) leaves a legacy of being vulnerable to exploitation.
This site, the posts and comments have for the first time made me aware of and knowledgable about this Achilles heel. It has shown me that I must look after myself, and also – crucially for me – how to do that. Truly life changing, nourishing information – bless you Natalie.
What I appreciate most about this blog is the ability to apply all of Nat’s advice not only to the romantic interests and Exes hanging around, but also to ANY PERSON who is attempting to get one over on us. I’ve known quite a few people who swan about braying their best attributes for all to hear. I agree with the poster above who talked about people being too nice right away. I would even further clarify that to people who kiss your ass no matter what you say. They turn out to have no moral compass at all but it IS sometimes hilarious to just say outrageous things to see if they will agree with you. Just don’t trust them as far as you can throw them. They’ll be agreeing with someone else soon enough about what a bitch you are.
Back when I was whoring much more than now, I used this Protest Too Much litmus test on potential lovers with unfailing accuracy. Men who were shit in bed were always blabbering about how hung they were or “I’ve never had complaints”. The ones who could lift you off the bed singing Hallelujah didn’t say a peep beforehand. Not a word. If you’ve got it, no need to advertise – your “client” will find out soon enough.
This is definitely a tool of the emotionally unavailable/abusive in that they wear rose-colored glasses to see themselves. They really BELIEVE that they are the sweet, generous, kind, responsible, faithful person they claim to be and if you disagree and point out their “flaws” they act as though you are a LIAR. It’s almost as if they are gaslighting themselves!! So creepy.
Oh, that is so true about the guys who tout themselves as being red-hot lovers turning out to be anything but! “I’ve never had any complaints.” Snort. Of course no one says anything to them! Do they think we put in a Help Desk request with Customer Service or something when they suck in the sack?
And yes, agreed, Nat’s advice is so pertinent to all our human relations. I had a long-time female friend who was so stuck on how nice-nice-NICE of a person she was. It was a form of controlling behavior — putting up the Great Wall of Nice so she could be passive and hope that life would be nice back to her (doesn’t work that way!). Well, in the end, she decided she’d “earned” the right to pork her boss, who was in a long-term relationship, because she was just so gosh darned nice. Oh, brother! I ended that friendship; just couldn’t take it any more from her.
wicked opinion: “Back when I was whoring much more than now, I used this Protest Too Much litmus test on potential lovers with unfailing accuracy. Men who were shit in bed were always blabbering about how hung they were or “I’ve never had complaints”. The ones who could lift you off the bed singing Hallelujah didn’t say a peep beforehand. Not a word. If you’ve got it, no need to advertise – your “client” will find out soon enough.”
Tea Cozy: “Oh, that is so true about the guys who tout themselves as being red-hot lovers turning out to be anything but! “I’ve never had any complaints.” Snort. Of course no one says anything to them! Do they think we put in a Help Desk request with Customer Service or something when they suck in the sack?”
Thanks for the laugh; these are funny as hell! *SCREAMING*
I was in denial when I said he was emotionally unavailable: when I admitted he was an ass clown, I was free and clear!
Ha! I love this post, being unauthentic and ingenuine is the worst possible traits in my book. Perhaps because I think I have been at times guilty of being too authentic! Either scares some or you show all your cards too early….
Funny your comment about people who preach being honest Nat, I dated a guy for three months early this year and then out of the blue he sends a text banging on that he wants to be honest and that he has recently been in contact with an ex fiance and have spoken about getting back together blah blah. I was not 100% surprised but it was quite a long messsage and he said the word ‘honest’ three times…..even “I do not wish to be dishonest with you”. So I think, well are you then?? dipshit. I don’t know if he thought I just popped out of a cabbage patch or what but the more I thought about it the more I thought, hang on this sounds more like and EXcuse than an EX romance. Sure enough, he popped up on an online dating site within 24 hours. I called him on it and yes, he was just too chicken to say he didn’t want to progress to a more serious relationship. People should just realise it is so much less hurtful to actually be honest than say it.
As for the psycho ex comments……sadly this one sounds familiar too. If only they realise that most people are on to this deluded deflecting comment and it does them no favours…..still they don’t care, whatever makes THEM feel better.
@Maree: Well I guess if those guys WERE honest nobody would date them anymore…
@ elly b
SUCH A GOOD POINT!
yes that is true, that is true 🙂
In the past I used to wonder: Why do all those people (I met quite a few of them) claim they are “fair”, and “honest”, and “nice”, and then are the exact opposite with me? What did I do to them? What is wrong with me? Is that the kind of “fair”, “honest” and “nice” behavior I deserve because I’m such an extremely bad person myself?
I’m ready to call it quits with a man who belittles his ex wife to me every time we get together, assuring me every time he is no sociopath, or narcissist. Enough already, stop acvertising yourself and stop criticizing others when there not there to tell their side of the story.
Another assclown will be biting the dust next weekend.
Hi Cat Nils
Just checking in I hope you have cut the belittling man, there but for the grace of the goddess goes you in the future. Major red flag. If a new guy disses his ex more than once, I am done with him on the spot no exceptions and this new guys told you that he’s not a sociopath, or narcissist? Run away fast!
I’ve come across a few peaCOCKS in my day. When I was younger, I was always enthralled by their stories. That was many years ago; thank goodness for time & wisdom. Now, they just make me roll my eyes. Hyper-bragadoccio is SO unattractive to me. If one is real with one’s integrity, then one’s actions speak louder than the words that come out of one’s mouth. That, to me, is a hell of a lot more admirable than peaCOCK feathers.
@EllyB
i was the same. i can only hope that it wasnt me but sometimes i stumble on this(today for example 🙁 ). i do wonder if it was just me because everyone else seemed to love him(his friends)he made out to me in the beginning that he was ‘never gonna hurt me’saying it a few times then he did start to hurt me and knowingly so ..i used to wonder was it that i wasnt pretty enough, made more of an effort with my appearance, was it my anxiety issues made him be the way he was to me and was it all just me? it annoys me further that he assumed this victim status among his friends and family(after i ended it after what i would call an unforgivable act)..it seemed so unfair. thats why i often question if it was me and question my judgement on the matter.
its a red flag to me now if someone tells me more than once or twice that they’re not going to hurt me especially if they dont know me well enough to make that sort of a promise. its not really a promise anyone can make to be honest to anyone.
My ex, at the very beginning used to say, I’ve been hurt please don’t hurt me… my ex was awful she hurt me terribly.
which one of us went off and did the dirty with their ‘ex’? answers on a postcard please..
I had pretty much the same thing happen with my last ex, Sarah! They must have been acting out this behaviour from yet another chapter in the “How To Be An EUM/Assclown Playbook”.
P.S. Do I win a prize for guessing the answer? 😀
i have begged exes in the past not to hurt me. beggedddd. i never cheated on them though (not that kinda girl). this (begging) doesn’t get anyone anywhere. if they are going to hurt you, they are going to hurt you and no amount of begging will prevent that..in fact the exes that have hurt me the most are the ones i begged the most at the beginning. i must have had a subconscious feeling that they would(did have a few gut inklings). plus times and people change and we are all hurt by a wide variety of things.
next relationship i will not beg for the person not to hurt me nor will i accept promises that they wont hurt me.
Well it looks like I have a bit of self-examination to do. Again. I saw myself a lot in your description of protesters.
I recently started dating a guy I met online. When he first started contacting me, he seemed to be very persistent: emailing everyday asking how I was and telling me that he was looking forward to hearing from me (he had given me his #). When I did not call him, he would write and say that he was disappointed that he did not hear from me. I got scared and assumed that he was another FF like my ex, and politely dismissed him. Upon reading another relationship blog by Evan Marc Katz, who is a dating coach (and who posted Nat’s site on his site-which is how I found BR), which stated that we should not let our relationships with past men affect future men we meet, and after talking with a girlfriend who insisted that I give the guy a chance, I contacted the guy and we started dating. Ladies, I am SO glad that I did!! He is a wonderful gentleman and I am having so much fun getting to know him! Word to the wise: it’s ok to be cautious and aware of potential red flags, but do not allow your negative experiences from previous relationships to cause you to pass up something good.
Spectacular post!!! There are so many good thoughts here. My first instinct to think – “ah, that was the assclown. Always going on about how honest and loving he was” when he was anything but. But then I brought it back around to me. I did this – constantly defending him to others, without seeing the big red flag it was that I felt I had to. And then I thought about the things I have said about myself. Am I trying to change people’s perceptions of me by pointing things out, lest they miss them on their own.
Another wrinkle in this is the fact that people keep pointing out or disliking in others that which they cannot accept about themselves. In addition to constantly talking about how honest he was (and he wasn’t), the AC accused every single other person of lying at some point. He could never admit that he did it himself (although if his lips were moving, he was lying) but was constantly vigilent for any evidence someone else may have fibbed to him.
you really have a great observation talent Nat. Thank you for everything, as nearly every time this has hit the nail on the head again. How my ex EUM was tying to make all of his exes sound like evil bitches and how he was such a generous, trusting, wanting no drama, reliable…… yadayadayap. This reading on here has helped me tons to understand what was actually going on, when i thought reality is upside down. This should be a must read for every women. And regarding the facebook thing that many others posted, can only agree. Yes they just love it, its like advertising heaven for them. My ex EUM even had all his exes linked to emphasise how nice of a person he is as all his exes were linked as friends. I found this sickening.
Doesn’t it make you all wonder whether those of us who have a tendency to put ourselves down are also protesting too much? I just had lunch with a friend who is a wonderful person, but he is very quick to notice social slights, very quick to wonder “is it me?,” and generally is very quick to say what a procrastinator he is, what a mediocre student, etc.
It’s behaviour I’m very familiar with, because I have done it a lot. I find that in his company I feel so much more pulled together, because he puts himself down; I find myself wanting to build him up. I resist that as I have been wanting out of a cycle of friendships where I feel one down – and to enter into a campaign of why my friend shouldn’t say these things about himself would just be getting into that cycle from the other side, where I feel benevolently one-up. Thou doth protest thy lack of worth too much, I want to say. Because there really is much about him that really is special, worthy and astute: he makes it easy for others to dismiss him and not feel threatened by what is strong in him by doing it for them, first.
So when we ask ourselves what is in it for people when they puff themselves up, advertising how great everything is in their lives, we wonder what insecurities it hides. Makes me wonder about people who advertise their weaknesses. Why ever would we do that? I can’t remember how I got into the habit.
Magnolia – Excellent. I was thinking something similar – that it’s the shoe is often on our very own feet. I think fundamentally there is a real payoff in both extremes, the puffing up and the undervaluing ourselves. If I consider the times when I’ve protested at how “underqualified” I am in certain areas of my life it’s been, quite honestly, because I don’t want to be responsible for who I am, and what I say I want. I grew up being congratulated (essentially) for being a really good shadow. It was easy to put myself down and allow people to walk all over me (and then complain about it later, of course!) because then I wasn’t really accountable for my own needs and wants, and people liked me – I managed people’s expectations of me DOWN in the same way puffer-uppers manage UP our expectations. When the rubber meets the road though the end result is always the same though: disappointment. As for when we learn it, I dunno. Perhaps it’s sort of like the kid who can’t seem to get his parents attention any other way but when he’s naughty. So he learns that being naughty gets him what he wants: his parents attention. He doesn’t care that it’s negative attention. He just cares that he gets some. The behaviour has consequences later on in life of course – since he can’t act this way in his job, or with his friends, or with his girlfriend and have things go well. Eventually he’ll have to take a look and realize that the behavior that got him what he wanted THEN isn’t working NOW. And resolve to change it I think.
Magnolia: this is a really good question & gives me lots of food for thought after work today. Like you, my modus operandi is (slowly working towards WAS) putting myself down. Thank you very much. 🙂
Well, my mother ridiculed me whenever I mentioned anything positive about myself (even if it was as obvious as being an A+ student or being successful at my job). She couldn’t stand it if I was brilliant at anything. After all, she claimed she was God (or at least the new Jesus Christ) even if she was… well, to be honest, a lazy loser.
Of course I learned to put myself down to make her happy (or at least appease her).
EDIT: Seems as if I’m still in “angry” mode. Well, maybe that’s what I need for the moment (hopefully not for the rest of my life though).
Hi Magnolia,
I at times put myself down or divulge my weaknesses in order to be liked, or loved but definitely accepted. If I appear “less” than, they`ll feel better about themselves. Started noticing that not only did I have a collection of EUM`s for partners, but some of my friends are pretty similar as well. I`m very emotionally observant and morph “down” on automatic pilot to suit the requirements of people and I effectively build up their egos while my self confidence crumbles. I find myself often in relationships and friendships with controlling people. It is definitely a pattern for me, like I have it drummed into me that if I don`t do as they want/say I`ll be alone. I play down all of my succesess all the time. Anything for acceptance. I think it goes back to being never good enough as a child for my controlling dad and sexual abuse by grandfather. But, a few months of BR and I`m changing, noticing one friend`s reactions to more authentic me, which are equivalent of her shouting “heel!! and I don`t have that automatic let me please you response anymore. I can see how it is irritating her, losing control over me. I think she can see I`m more confident and not dependant on her and she doesn`t like it. uh…I hope you can make some sense out of that, all this is so new to me I`m finding it hard to verbalise my feelings and thoughts.
What about men who *have* to let you know that they are taken, particularly when it is completely irrelevant to the conversation? It happens to me quite often and frankly, it’s annoying. I once tried to buy a couch online and the man who replied had to point out he was married blah blah. I basically told him I’d deal with his wife if it made him more comfortable. (Didn’t end up buying the couch.)
I figure these men are protesting too much and that their relationships aren’t as solid as they appear. People who are comfortable in their unions can interact with anybody and call out others when they overstep. Thanks, Nat, for articulating this issue so well.
I’ve been running into that, too, cha.
It drives me nuts! And it starts to seem like they are telling me *I* must be desperate.
What I mean is that when I was younger (never “hot” but somewhat exotic and alluring), no one would bring up a girlfriend or anything in a casual chat.
Now they do in the most absurdly glancing contact. Like I got on the subway a couple of weeks ago holding an old Graham Greene spy paperback. Sit down and the guy next to me says he’s never read him, always wanted to, how is it? I’m like, I’m on page 20, but the truth is I may have already read this and forgotten it; I read really fast. He’s like “my wife is that way, too, bla bla.” He said it in this virtuous way, like he needed to let me down easy or something in case I got any ideas. It’s so insulting! He asked me a question; I answered. Do I look like a woman who is so delusional that any time a guy talks to me I’m planning the wedding??
This happens to me at parties, networking events, etc. And never once have I had a flicker of interest in the guy, except for having the actual conversation on whatever topic we’re talking about. What the hell???? Is this a new zeitgeist thing, that men now are anxious to protest how committed they are to any woman they talk with? Or did I pass some sell-by date such that I am assumed to be absolutely desperate? It just feels like shit, seriously, shut up about your wife when you ask me how a friggin book is on the subway. Holy crap!
This post rings so true for me. My ex told me constantly how honest he was and the more he said it, the less I believed a word he said. Caught him in so many lies, but until I took off those rose colored glasses and saw where things were going, I’d believe his lies to cover up his lies. “Brutally honest” he would say and it made me question my own sanity at times, thinking maybe he was. After reading this, I realize I’m not crazy.
thanks!
My ex said on our first date “I know who I am and what I want”. I remember thinking- I wonder why someone would feel the need to say this to someone they hardly knew, or at all? But I took it at face value, and convinced myself that this was a great sign- finally I had met someone who was in touch with himself and clear about what he wanted!
Turns out this man had no idea what he was feeling and why most of the time, was immensely insecure, and although he insisted that he wanted a long term committed relationship was neither ready for nor capable of one. Now when someone tells me they know themself, that they are a strong person, or that they know what they want in life I just think ‘is that so?’ and look at who they are, what their current life looks like, the choices they have made and how they act in relationships.
Jeez – I am really behind on these articles – you are on a roll Nat.
I went on a date with a guy once – in our conversation he felt the need to announce that he does not hit women. Hmmmmm – Needless to say that was our last date!! LOL!!
I had to share it with all of you,As I damn near chocked..
I have been talking to a Man I met off a dating site, I am still guilty of handing them over my Blue prints I guess,Anyway,one of the things I am still insecure about me is my weight,Don’t get me wrong, I am not super overweight,as I have lost quite a bit,But when I look in the mirror I still see the old Brenda,anyway I was going on and on,And this is what he said…
“THOSE YOU PROTEST TOO MUCH”!!!!I had to have him repeat what he said like 3 times,I could not believe a Guy would bring that up…
Nat your awesome,One of your lessons,was brought up in my face!
Brenda