There are many situations and topics in life that you can have discussions about. However, when it comes to recognising shady behaviour and what in fact might be repeat shadiness, it’s time to stop discussing, get to flushing. Your boundaries are yours to uphold. If someone would go to the trouble of busting them, having a chat about it is only going to give the impression that you’re not really that serious and are open to their crossing your boundaries again.
Your job in life isn’t to raise adults from the ground up. If you don’t think somebody knows the fundamental difference between right and wrong and you feel they lack an affinity with basic respect, it’s time to step.
When a reader asked me what she should do after discovering that her commitment dodging ‘boyfriend’ had stayed with another woman for three days (it’s not the first time he’s done this) and he was refusing to discuss it, I replied, “You don’t discuss his being away with another woman. You flush his ass, fast.”
There is no explanation that covers screwing someone else for a few days. What are they going to say? “I forgot my way home…. I was held hostage by a sex-crazed woman/man for a few days… I ran out of clean drawers… Baby, I was so afraid to tell you after the first day, I stayed another couple of days…”?
If somebody doesn’t see things/your involvement in the way you do, they won’t feel obliged to explain their actions. If they’ve previously crossed boundaries and had discussions with you, they’re highly likely to have worked out the pattern. They’ll know what to say/do, including stonewalling, Future Faking, Fast-Forwarding and distancing themselves in order to calm you down or panic you into submission.
If a discussion or repeated discussions are going to diminish you, including undermining your credibility, flushing this person by mentally and physically distancing yourself and moving on is the only way.
Let me tell you from personal experience, these discussions turn you into someone you don’t recognise who suffers with Thinking and Talking Too Much.
I remember one ex trying to palm me off with a feeble explanation for why he didn’t come back for 13 hours after saying he needed to pop out for an hour to help a friend and then turned his phone off all night. I actually called the hospitals and eventually had to call his friend, who then must have passed a message. Suddenly, my ex was calling. As I listened to his tale, I remember thinking, “I’m not doing this“. I ended it the following day. Playing the fool and ‘Columboing‘ in my own real-life episode of Cheaters was not my style.
It’s a shame I didn’t extend my dignity to my next ‘relationship’ with the Guy With a Girlfriend because I became the woman who had about a thousand discussions on Why Haven’t You Left Her Yet? Is It Because I’m Not Good Enough?
In a mutual relationship (or just an interaction with a reasonable adult who’s capable of empathy and has an affinity with accountability and responsibility), a discussion in the sense of debating or conversing on a topic, exchanging ideas, or trying to reach a conclusion with a view to making a resolution, will not leave you hanging.
There’s no debating the legitimacy and validity of your boundaries. You sure as hell shouldn’t be giving them the green light to duck responsibility in their attempts to put their shady behaviour on you.
Don’t ‘negotiate’ with people who don’t even have the basic courtesy and personal value to respect you due to not valuing their own integrity. The more you discuss it, the more it looks like you’re convincing yourself that their behaviour is about you. Or it looks like you’re trying to sell yourself back into an already unworkable ‘deal’. Stop discussing; get to flushing.
Your thoughts?
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Well I can certainly relate to this topic. How many times have I tried to have a discussion. What happens every time is I do all the talking and accusing, and letting him know how much he has hurt me and humiliated me. And what do I get from him….nothing. Absolutely nothing. He WILL not discuss. He just sits there with puppy dog eyes, and when it’s over I leave feeling more frustrated than ever. And give it an hour or two when he’s had time to put together a response, I’ll get an email saying that same bullshit about remorse, and yes he’s a bad person, and yes, I deserve better, blah. blah, blah….but his actions always remain that same.
Sounds like your actions remain the same as well…I wish you the strength to look at HIM with big puppy dog eyes and say nothing except this: I accept you as you are. Good luck and good bye. And then NCNCNCNCNCNCNCNCNCNCN! You deserve better and give it to yourself!
Nancy,
It’s time you take the focus off him – you know who he is, and have analyzed him to death – and focus on you, and why you’re choosing to be in this situation.
You’re not a victim! You’re choosing to be in this situation!
Allison:
Nancy is a victim. We all have/are being victimized in some manner if you are here on BR.
Could you consider toning down you comments? Whether you mean it or not they comes of as hurtful, judgmental and critical. I realize your intent maybe to help but it’s having the opposite effect. Folks who are in pain require empathy and sympathy, you comments are not coming of as such. Hugs….
You are not a victim when you choose to engage. We all have choices to make. I think a lot of people come to BR for a dose of “tough love” and everyone has a different style of communication, so we should try not to criticize.
Araja,
I’m sorry, but I don’t agree.
I too, stayed in an unhealthy relationship – the red flags ablazing – but choose to ignore. I knew my ex was bad news, but stuck around. I do not consider myself a victim, as I was an active participant.
When I acknowledged my complicity, and didn’t make it all about him, I was able to move on, make positive changes and address my EU issues and self esteem.
As long as we continue to see ourselves as a victim, we will continue the pattern of toxic relationships, without addressing what brought us there.
Lastly, when do we become responsible for continuing to return to our source of pain?
I never said I was a victim…I have never thought that. I am the first to admit that it’s not his behavior that is the problem…it’s my behavior. I have never told him “no” so why should he stop? It helps to have harsh comments at times from people on this blog. It makes me really stop and think about what I’m doing. I don’t need sympathy as much as I need help in understanding the beast. I spin, spin, spin….one day I am strong and want to stop the insanity, the next day I find myself saying “well I can just be a friend with an occasional booty call.” What have I become? Jesus! It’s a daily progression, but I do feel like I am making steps in a positive direction.
Allison is correct…I have analyzed him as much as I can, and I DO know the answer. But man….I’m SO scared to let go.
Anyway..no offense taken, Allison.
Nancy,
I know I am being tough, but it is truly coming from a good place.
We all know how these relationships can be soul destroying that is why you have to remove yourself from the situation.
Please remember, you had a life before this guy, and will again. When you learn and grow from these toxic relationships – this only happens with NC – your self esteem will return.
Please speak to someone about this. Time to make some changes!
Hugs
Sorry Araja, I’m with Allison on this. I did not perceive her comments as hurtful or critical, just to the point. We can’t coddle each other on here or we’ll stay ‘victimized’. Sympathy and empathy are great, but not if they function as a cloud to snuggle up in rather than the straight honesty that these situations require. My mother perpetuated the victim stance in me all the ‘ohhhh, poor you’ whenever I’d express my dismay about something. That didn’t help a thing, the truth or an objective opinion was never forth coming, so I’m 43 and now only waking up to my contribution to my relationships and what my part is. In taking control of my life is dropping the ‘poor me’s’ and getting a grip. Honesty is the only way to accomplish this.
Araja, when I (and all of us) first realized that the man I was involved with was a narcissistic dickhead, I was indeed his victim. When I went back for more (and I did) I ceased to become a victim and became a volunteer. I have read nancys posts over many months and I reckon she will be the first to admit that she knows full well that the excuse for a man she is involved with will never treat her well, that she continues to engage in a futile drama that will cause her pain. Excruciating and totally unecessary pain. This is not the sort of website where we all sit around saying “Men Are Shit” and “Woe is Me” and “Poor Me I Am Such A Helpless Victim.” We support each other, yes, but we talk straight. I support Nancy totally in her internal struggles and I hope that one day she gets the strength to leave the assclown who abuses her. I don’t think victim mentality will help her but I do hope that the kickass advice she gets from Allison and other posters might.
“This is not the sort of website where we all sit around saying “Men Are Shit” and “Woe is Me” and “Poor Me I Am Such A Helpless Victim.” We support each other, yes, but we talk straight.”
I’ve been on this site over 1.5 years so I know exactly what this is about. Supporting one another is wonderful and why I’m on this site. I love the strong comment provided by Grace, Grizelda, Natashya, and Natalie(could anyone be tougher). My personal opinion is Allison need to tone down her comment. There is a fine line between coming off as rude and tough. My humble opinion…
Araja, when I was in trouble with my two ACs Allison’s comments HELPED ME SO MUCH and I am so grateful to her. I wish she was my real friend, who was there for me! I understand what NANCY feels, because I feel the same from time to time. My both ACs keep contacting me via email and I STILL do not have a decency to CUT THEM OF completely. IT IS SO HARD:( but I am trying AND thanks to people like Allison (Tinkerbell, Grace and others), I am going to the right direction!
Little Star,
That means a great deal! 🙂
You have come a long way, and you will get to the point where they no longer matter. You so deserve it!!!!
Hugs!!!
“I’m teeeeeeeeelllllllllling you…. I’m not going…. You’re the best thing I’ve ever known…. And you, and you, and you, you’re gonna love meeeeeeeee.”
HAHAHA I’m dying over here, Nat! Good one! Been listening to an old disco soul classic ” Dont give it up” by Linda Clifford, matches this post nicely.
Another great post Natalie, thank you. I don’t know why I’ve been so keen, like a dog with a bone, to have a discussion with him just so I can prove to myself what a d*ck he is and be sure that HE knows what a d*ck he’s been.
I know it already, he knows it already (unless he’s as Narc as I suspect, in which case he’s in blissful ignorance!) and either way, it won’t change anything. Trying my hardest to FLUSH!
Baggage Reclaim is IN YOUR FACE REALITY!! And I love this site. I owe alot to this site and I encourage every woman to really look in the Mirror and Ask Yourself Who Am I and What am I worth. There is NO MAN worth depleting your self esteem for on this EARTH EVER!!!!!
I was in a relationship with a MM for a year and a half, and after he broke up with me, I was in orbit around him as Chief Sympathizer for another year and change. I definitely enabled his shady behavior the entire time. When he left his marriage and moved in with another OW-turned-Sympathizer, our connection faded fast. Now that I am fairly recovered from this entire debacle, I see that every day that passes without engagement is another day where my boundaries are left intact, in peace. Another day where I can say at nightfall, I have my dignity. When thinking back on it all, I shudder at all I put up with, all that I was in denial of. I was so desperate to be loved by this flawed man. I complained about his shady behavior to everyone, including the BR community, but I kept going back for more. Life is much quieter, and I can hold my head up high.
Amanda….your comment “I complained about his shady behavior to everyone, including the BR community, but I kept going back for more.” Wow…that is so me…and I’m still going back and back again. What finally got you to the point where you didn’t go back?
Nancyw, I can’t take full credit for this. The exMM stopped fishing for attention once he decided to move in with the other-Other Woman (OOW). He stopped tormenting me. He stopped preying on me for my sympathy. I am not sure if I would have the will and the strength to hold my ground if he still was coming around crying tears out of his big, sad blue eyes. For better or for worse, he’s enlisted the full time help of one woman to see him through this. When he has been in touch, its clear to me what a mess he is. He claims to love no one more than the wife whom he left… for the OOW. I am in a better place to see the insanity. I also had a friend in real life tell me that he had enough of hearing me complain about this. He, like Natalie, gave me a few karmic slaps and told me that my complaints were but another way that I was propping up the fantasy of the relationship in my mind. I also started to see a therapist last fall when I saw that I couldn’t let the drama go, and she’s been helping me identify what my core needs are, and has been helping me see what a disservice this fantasy relationship has done to these needs. But, I can take some credit. I’ve worked hard to keep my careers (plural), my health, and my friendships in ship-shape throughout this all. I’ve put my focus on these areas, and have been able to feed my sense of identity in areas outside of my love-life. Crucial. Also, once you stop feeding the fantasy and start investing in yourself, there comes a morning when you wake up and realize that you have been living a more righteous life. You see that you are capable, and it becomes so much easier to feel self-love. Once that begins to flow, the need for external validation from anyone drops. I wouldn’t say that the flow of self-love is constant. It goes in fits and starts. But, I know its there. It will be there for you, too!
YAY amanda!! woo hoo!!
yes, once self-validation starts, external validation seeking diminishes. also, we get better at seeking reality checks / validation from truly reliable sources. for the record? a guy who is screwing you over is an INvalidator.
Nancyw –
I was in same position as well, and I don’t know about Amanda, but what flipped the switch for me was seeing in print, a conversation that MM had with the other woman, where he said exactly a lot of the same things he used to say to me. It made me sick to my stomach – have not spoken to him since (3 weeks ago today) and I actually feel good.
it just happens. just one day you value YOU more than you value his opinion of you. and then, it’s sort of like quitting a bad habit. one day at a time NC.
Exactly. There was a moment a few weeks ago when I realized that I couldn’t simultaneously love myself and “love” the exMM. I put “love” in quotes, because, in practice, I was being a doormat with shifting boundaries in order to receive even a whiff of his crumbs. I saw that all of the maneuvering I was doing was making me miserable, and, worse, was setting me back on my mission to love myself. It took me almost three years to get to this place. I had known, from the day that I learned that he was married (which was a month into knowing him), that I was making terrible choices and damaging compromises, but it took me three years to really integrate that knowledge and act unilaterally in my best interests. I hope it doesn’t take as long for the rest of you.
Amanda-
i love how you put it. very articulate.
I said to a psych friend, quitting a man is just like quitting smoking. One day i valued my health/having money/not stinking over the enjoyment of smoking. One day i will value something over him. I hope
Hi Natalie, great site!
Well the person I’ve flushed is a woman, a family member, and although I thought my electric fence was strong, there were points where the power wasn’t switched on as you say. I wouldn’t know where to begin with this person, but safe to say she’s been given time and money and I’ve been given ingratitude and abuse in return. Having alienated the rest of the family, it was apparently “down to me” to reason with her and keep up her spirits. It was just a matter of time till she turned on me, unfortunately.
I didn’t, however, hang around when the abuse started – luckily it was verbal not physical and it only happened once, because I am not going to hang around and be treated like an emotional mule. Any denunciation of her outrageous behaviour or encouragement for her to help herself would’ve been a waste of breath as she had already scripted her story, and it didn’t include any deviations from the happy ending of being the victim.
As for me, my happy ending came with flushing this person for the at least foreseeable future.
Grrrr….I talk and think tooooooo much! Ladies, I’m having a shit day over here in pity town! I keep tinking that if I reach out to the ex EMU and “discuss” once again what I needed and how he made me feel than it will make some kind of difference! Ha…he hasn’t reached out once since I broke it off and began NC. That should be reason enough to recognize that ‘discussing’ anything further is futile. I have been so insecure for years! I keep going over and over again in my mind all of the things that I was doing, maybe I made him behave as he did?! I know that this is just me trying to rationalize reaching out to him but it has been 6 weeks (we were only together 4 months, although all the future faking made me fall HARD and FAST) so why can’t I let go, let myself off of the hook, forgive myself for anything I ‘may’have done wrong and move on?! Why do men have this affect on me? I feel like I am doomed to a life of loneliness becasue even if a good one comes along, my self-esteem has been so deminished, I wont be able to believe a thing the good ones say or do. I feel so damn damaged! HELP!!
I replied to your comment on the previous posting about self-punishment. You’re going through this internal roller coaster because you are asking yourself to be self-reliant for the first time in your life. It it really hard. You are going to have days that feel unbearable. You are doing really well, considering that you have maintained strict NC for 6 weeks. Every difficult element of this is internal. Thank god this person isn’t making it any harder for you. He is doing you a favor. He is even, quite possibly, being respectful of you. Think about that. By doing nothing. By not engaging you, he is showing you more respect than he did when he was “involved” with you (ie, jerking you around). Just breathe, my dear. You are doing really, really well. You’ve made it 6 weeks. In another 6 weeks, you should begin to have an inkling of who you are, independent of how others see you, and I am placing odds on you liking her very much.
I’m right with you. Why do certain men have this affect on me? The problem is that Normal people discuss, empathize, and try not to hurt you again. Somewhere, the we decidce that they think like us, and they do not. So we get stuck in the loop, it must be me…… No it’s them. I too feel damaged. I have a court date coming up, because of two DV charges against my ex, that happened last July, and it is finally going to court, and I am the one stressed, feeling I have to defend myself etc etc etc. I can’t sleep yet he is the guilty party. I know that is is responsible for his behavior and has chosen not to be accountable. Thank god, the laws in Colorado understand the abuse cycle, and the police pressed the charges. I do have an ex girlfriend of his that he was cheating on when he was seeing me, that he was abusive to, that she will come to court, and I do have a therapist that is being supeoned, because she asked him to leave because he became abusive in our one and only session.
If anything, I have learned I would rather be alone and respecting myself, then dealing with a man who would get angry over NOTHING, and leave, end the relationship daily, and NEVER EVER own his behavior or say he was sorry.
Natalie, thank you for another wonderful post. You know I had a conversation with my friend, she told me that she is going to carry on to have a booty call relationship with her guy and the same time she will look for MR Right. I was thinking if I did not have BR knowledge, I would be still with one of my two ACs! BUT I am different now…I want a love, care, trust, faithfulness from my future man! Thank you so much for being my TEACHER!!! YOU CHANGED MY LIFE!
Damn! Messed up my NC and returned his call and got into a shouting match! I feel so stupid! I read this site off and on all day and messed up!!!
The good thing about it is you can start over…right now! Forget about that…it’s in the past…Your present and future are all that matters. Best of luck.
its ok, moving on. don’t beat yourself up. you’re human and now you know there’s no point in picking up the phone when he calls. give yourself a break. truly.
The posts from last couple weeks have really resonated with me. Thank you BR and community for helping me “get it”.
I am now NC with ex-wife. We just email or text regarding our son.
I just turned 38 and realized enough is enough.
First i had to flush the red flag girl1… she was spreading rumors about me. She was lieing to me so much it was insulting. and she was just being nasty in public flipping me off on the dance floor.
Then the next day i flushed the ex-wife… she was causing drama over our sons graduation. She is a CHOPPER and was in her usual cycle of blaming me for her problems and then demanding that i come over and fix her stuff (fixing of sex as well)… NO MORE FIXING
I feel bad for having to do NC, but deep down i know it is the only solution to give me space to heal and work on myself.
Now is the hard part to stick to NC. It’s only been 2 days but i can do it.
Caved with NC with my EUM……UGH……didn’t take long for him to disregard/disrespect me and my boundaries. He really hurt me this time…..FLUSHING…….
Thank you for this article. I have been a huge fan of the site and the books for 2.5 years, but I have not posted before. I am in a bad place right now. I want to discuss.I should probably flush.
My supposedly healthy relationship has abruptly ended, after 12+ months together, me moving 3 months ago to the country he’s living in, me trying to learn another new language, and get a work permit, after he promised we could build a future together, and talked marriage, children and the like. I thought I was ok, hadn’t missed any red flags for once, was honest with him and myself, wasn’t in denial,etc. I thought we had all the landmarks/hallmarks.
Yes, it started long distance, but we saw each other frequently. He went on vacation with my family, went to my brother’s wedding, and spent 2 weeks with my crazy family at Christmas. He met my friends. I met his friends. We seemed to have the same values and equal love, care, trust and respect.
About a month ago, we’re gathering documents for commonwealth marriage,and he wants me to go to his home country this summer to meet his parents; he’s talking about scheduling when we could have a baby in the future, etc.
I voice some economic concerns-I’m there living off savings, paying my bills back home too, don’t know the language yet, getting a work permit is looking worse each day. Some friends at a dinner party uncomfortably suggest we get married to get me a work permit. The next thing you know, he’s acting totally different.
We spend the first two weeks with him blaming me for not trying hard enough to find a job or assimilate quicker, telling me my plan to go back to grad school is now financially irresponsible if I have to borrow money how will that affect us planning a life together, that he is no longer a new immigrant, and wants to be able to go on holidays if he wants, that where would we get the money to get married(I said nothing about getting married as I don’t want to get married to solve immigration problems), that is that what I wanted, to just go there, not work and get married? What if he loses his job? Later he said he didn’t mean the bad stuff…
He alternates between this new personality, and either ignoring/withdrawing affection,acting depressed or us tensely acting as though things are fine, or him saying he’s getting a beer with a mate at 5 pm, and staying out ‘til 12. We discuss. I try to reason with him, get him to open up, I cry. I propose more solutions etc., etc.
I try even harder to learn the language faster, make friends, network, explore working from home, everything.
He says he wants to break up. When I am surprised and ask for clarification, he says he wants a break. I ask if he’s sure. We argue. We discuss more. We agree to break for a month, talking sometimes. He buys me a one-way ticket-he can’t take the pressure of a return date. He tells me not to take all my stuff, that it is just a break, not a breakup. He apologizes. He says he got claustrophobic and stressed.
I encourage him to think about going back to distance for awhile, or maybe for the summer so I could earn some more money back home, we could go to his country, etc, and that if I can go to grad school in the fall, the original plan, things will be better, I will have my own life, no work permit problems, more time to learn language, etc. He says he loves me, that he just needs space. Things seem ok.
I go home to my family aka original crazy makers,who make me into a people pleasing adult child of alcoholics.
He is out of contact completely. I try to give him space. He sends me a weird, short email for my birthday. I respond that we should catch-up.
He responds about a week later, (Sunday this week) on a significant date for us, that I think he’s remembered. His email was titled “Hi!” When he logged on to Skype, he wrote “Hi!” before we talked.
We talk on the phone. I ask if anyone has called the house phone for me about jobs. He says he wants to break up.
He says he doesn’t owe me a reason, doesn’t have to justify it; that we weren’t in a commitment, that he’s just not seeing it. That he doesn’t see why it was such a big deal for me to move 1500 km away “with a couple of suitcases”(it was more than that). He says if I want to go to grad school I can just go, or go somewhere else, not understanding the time frame for applications, how much work I put into my applications, that I would have to take the GRE test again because my scores expire this year. He says that if I don’t want to be back home, I can just move somewhere else. That it’s sad, but he wasn’t sure he was going to bring it up, or that he wanted to break up when we talked, but then since I asked if anyone called for me…
That I should think of it as an experience. That he can’t talk anymore about it and we can talk another day, but actually he’s busy for the next week, so maybe in a week.
I can’t wrap my head around this. I am devastated. I know at some point I will have to talk to him about my belongings. I don’t think I can go to grad school there now, not being in the relationship and have it be about me. I can’t believe I did this, and now my whole life is upside down, and when things got difficult, he just was out. He doesn’t even remember how things happened.
Reading this post, I guess it’s true, that there shouldn’t be much of a discussion left to have if I can make the hurt and my brain stop telling me to try to figure out how to solve this, if I can shove down the urge to ask again where things went wrong, what can I change, why he can’t try to work it out, why after 12 months together, in the past month he has been a different person. He never was unfair or hurtful like this before last month. How he told me we would work things out, was out of contact, then started out with “Hi!” and somehow we ended up with a break-up.(Who does that?!)
I’m having trouble flushing. I feel lost. I want to discuss. I’m not in a good place emotionally, financially or physically (being at my parents’), and most of my belongings are now in another country, which we didn’t even discuss. I know I shouldn’t discuss, but I keep thinking if he would be rational, that the love is still there somewhere, etc. Any advice? Thank you.
Luisa,
I am so sorry you are going through this. It is really sad. My advice is to make plans without him and don’t go looking for answers. Essentially go NC. If he has an explanation for his actions, he’ll let you know. I think you should give each other space right now and try to build your life back without him.
Thanks, Melissa. I think you’re right. NC seems the only way to go. After reading everyone’s posts, it is comforting, but also shocking that so many people are in situations where someone showed them the fake Fendi, and they didn’t realize it wasn’t real until later…I hope everyone can have a strong day and reading this, I realize that as impossible as NC seems right now, it is possible, and I know if so many of you can do it, I can too. Please remind me of this in about 20 minutes when I start thinking that I can solve this somehow. Self, it is not an Agatha Christie novel or House episode with a crazy twist.
Aw Luisa 🙁
No wonder you feel all over the place. You’ve had the twist, though, I’m afraid – Seemingly Nice Guy Is Really An Arsehole Shocker.
I don’t think that it’s surprising that you want to talk about it when it changed so quickly and seemingly over a narrow range of issues. Having said that, this isn’t about
You need work permits where I live too. With one engaged couple that I know, her temporary work permit expired and it looked like she’d have to give up her job, so they brought the wedding forward, had a mad rush to prepare for it, did it on the cheap and had a great time. If that was the issue then it wouldn’t have been the issue. Really, afaics, the issue is that he isn’t particularly prepared to deal with a situation that involves struggling or dealing with problems.
He’s unavailable and he doesn’t understand love, because when you love someone you don’t behave like that. THAT’S the issue and you can’t change it.
The only small thing that I’d perhaps pick up on is that, if I’ve read it right, less than a year (9 months?) is very quick to be making humungous decisions like moving to a different country and trying to set up a life there. That’s not a timescale I’d be comfortable with, you’re risking everything that you’ve built up so far on not-very-much information.
Hope you feel better soon xx
D’oh, forgot to edit.
Meant to say “this isn’t about the issue of your assimilation or work permit or job or anything like that, it’s an issue with him”
Thanks, yoghurt. I agree, that moving after-it was 9 months after we were officially a couple, but like 11ish after we met-seems too soon. Originally I was going to wait until right before grad school, but Mr. Fendi was all, why not now, give myself time to learn the language, he has a good job there, get acclimated,there’s so much work there, it’s not so hard to get a temporary permit(uh yes, it is!) etc, and at first I said no, but then I agreed.
I lived outside my country before for about 5 years total time, in two other countries, but, as I told him, I never moved without a work permit, a job contract, or knowing the language at least a bit more, so not the same thing.Totally agree as well, having moved around, that people solve immigration problems, or go back to distance, etc.
I had only been back from my last international stint a couple of months before I met him, didn’t have a job I loved,wasn’t too settled in a new city, etc. When he brought up moving however much time later, it felt like I had more to gain; I was excited to be abroad again, to learn a new language again, go back to school, etc. Perhaps though since I was still settling myself, I was willing to compromise too much. He had his same life going, albeit with the new flat that we chose together, and me.Hmm.
luisa-
i’m so sorry this all happened. i actually had to stop reading about 80% of the way through because i felt so bad for you.
he must have been a fake fendi – all it took was someone else mentioning the m-word for him to freak out and back out.
i know you don’t want to hear this, now, but 1) good riddance 2) even though it feels like you got machine-gunned, you dodged a bullet 3) even though it was TERRIBLE it could have been worse, a lot worse.
i’m glad you left. i don’t ever want you to go back or to listen to him or to give him another chance. ever. EVER. ok? he’s disgusting and irresponsible. how dare he turn the tables on you and blame you in any way. all that is gaslighting you – you see?
advice: unless there is something in your belongings that you absolutely cannot live without, just forget what you left there. if there are things you really need, ask him (or a friend?) to box them up and ship them.
then, please, just take care of yourself. do not break NC except to get essentials back. do not listen to him. his behavior is unconscionable and unforgivable and he is a lost cause. and don’t blame yourself, just be glad you’re out of it – i know how much it hurts – and rebuild your life so that you can get the heck away from your family.
stay on your own side. come back here when you need strength.
massive, massive hugs
CC it is soooo good to have you back.
For reals. 🙂
aw, you guys. *smooooches*
Thanks, CC. This site is amazing. I know I wrote way too much; I’m having a hard time explaining this to myself I guess.
The irony, is that he had told me a long time ago, he moved there, with a work permit and being bilingual in the language. And it still took him 3 months to find a job in his field, and then like 6 months to find a good job. Also weirdly, things seemed to be looking up despite the stress.I was making more contacts, getting more conversations, figuring things out more, making some friends, actually starting to get somewhere with the language.
Gaslight is a powerful word-yup. And how it felt-the slightest change in tone, energy, etc. then accusations, weirdness.
I agree, I need to think about what I really need of my possessions. Thank you so much to everyone. When I read these comments, I’m thinking OK,I’m not crazy-because it’s so bizarre to me that I seriously have these moments like-is this really happening?I take my responsibility for moving there, choosing to try work on things before leaving, etc. But I feel this was the first relationship in forever that I wasn’t acting in unhealthy ways in. And I admit, he seemed like the real thing-like A little said I’m also thinking, having just had my birthday, being in my mid-30s-how long will it take to get over this? What if I never do? What if that was my chance to have a baby and then it’s too late? Like NML said in another article, “it’s hard to get over that what was promised is not really available”.I need to focus on the NC-and get back some control of my life and get out of my head. Thanks for the support everyone. It means a lot.
Luisa
I had an experience like yours and after a few months, when I realized how immature, irresponsible and selfish (and likely to remain ever so) he was, I was effectively over it. And the NC time was revelatory, i learned a lot about myself. I had to meet him once after we broke up after he sent me a booty text, and I told him never to disrespect me like that again. I was ice cold and I have to say, it felt good to walk away and know I did not want him ever again.
Good for you Fifi. I hope to get there someday.
Luisa, I have another suggestion. If you need to get your stuff back, you should get it asap. You don’t want to be in the middle of healing from this and then have to deal with potential drama from him (it would be a set-back.
Also, can I ask how long you knew him before you started dating?
I noticed a pattern in my relationships, that I never have been friends first. I tend to get wrapped up with AC’s and EUM. I have decided to take a break from dating and work on making myself happy first before I get into a relationship again. And, I really want to know the person better before I start dating them.
Don’t worry, you will find someone again. I am in my 30’s too. We must stay positive and love ourselves. Negative outlooks are self- fulfilling prophecies.
Stay strong!
Thanks, Melissa. I knew him about 2 months or so before we started dating, no sex, was trying to take it slow, and not chase the feeling as NML says!I definitely hear you about ACs and EUMs consuming your energy-been there, done that-well, apparently I’ve done it again! Previous to this, I had some reality checks, and took some time off, went on a couple of dates but nothing more. Taking a break can be really productive when you make it about getting back to you.
I really don’t want to backtrack on the progress I had made with myself before this relationship, so positive energy is important. Found a four-leaf clover the other day-am deciding to take that as a good sign. Thanks for your kind words!
Luisa,
Keep that positive energy going and you will be alright! Have a great day and take care of yourself!
I completely understand the whole what if?what could have been and also I am 31 and I had thoughts of when will I find happiness, find a good man…and if I was really blue WILL it happen? Is time running out for me to be happy? But after my most recent AC, Mr Excuses, excuses…I have decided to focus on me, and my son (his dad was an AC too, but that is another story). Ive been hanging out with my friends, my family. Re-connecting with all the things that make me, me, and make me happy. Things that I had neglected when I got involved with my last AC. Including my job and my health – I lost about 10kg and my work was really suffering. Now though because I have been busy it has made NC easier…I would say in your position NC is the way to go, if you feel you need to “discuss” write a letter to your AC, you dont need to send it, just get it all out. And then start working towards getting to a place where you are emotionally, physically and financially stable. Find work that you really enjoy, spend time with friends and family, make time for you. One day at a time…and with your belongings, well I wouldn’t worry about them too much right now, for now focus on YOU and getting stronger…a quote from the movie The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel spings to mind “Everything will be all right in the end… if it’s not all right then it’s not yet the end”.
Thanks for your comment, Mereanne. I’m glad to hear that you are feeling better and getting back to you during NC. I’m sure eventually NC will feel better than wanting to discuss, or the feeling I’ve had this week which is like I’m going to vomit all the time! There is a lot of work to do with making a new life I guess, so hopefully I can get busy with that. I’m trying to go through the stuff I put in storage back here too, and hoping that getting rid of my clutter will also free up some more energy in my life(or at least distract me!)The stuff there, I will have to deal with at some point but I’m giving myself this week to not problem-solve that yet.
There is a group, called The Stars-and they have this song “Your Ex-Lover is Dead”(figuratively_ which is super-dramatic. But I’ve been thinking that the line “I’m not sorry there is nothing to say,” would be a goal for me at some point after being NC. Hopefully I will get to where I have with other exes, where I just didn’t have anything to discuss, didn’t see the point, wouldn’t want to put myself through that again. But this time, hopefully in less time than I wasted discussing with other exes.
No worries, and really it does get better, I felt really ill for weeks. Then I thought I am not going to let my health fade becasue of some dude who doesnt give two sh#ts!! And great song, listening to it now…funny but music gets me through the hard times…I bet everyone has a soundtrack to their life, and in fact a break-up track (or soundtrack) mix-tapes remember those!? Funnily the song Perfect by Smashing Pumpkins resonates with me with this last break-up “so far I still know who you are
but now I wonder who I was…” Big hugs to you Luisa 🙂
Luisa, I am so sorry to hear you’ve had such an awful experience. I really hope the posts/blogs/responses on this site have been a comfort.
Yep – I know exactly how you feel and sometimes its so hard to be poistive and hopeful and so much easier to just give in to the misery but we can’t do that. There will be good days and bad. You will start to feel stronger as you gain clarity on the situation and get past the shock. I really do wish you the very best of luck.
If all these other ladies can get themselves to a good place, Im sure we can too.
You’re stronger than you think. Its just going to take some time to accept and move forward. x
Thanks, A little! I am finding a lot of comfort here. It’s good to remember that everyone here is having a tough time or had one, and somehow everyone gets through it one way or another. The world doesn’t stop! It sounds so obvious, but it’s true! This week, I’m still where I wake up(if I sleep) and remember what has happened and it’s a bad moment.But hopefully if I stick with NC, and accepting what’s happened, I will not lose years of my life. As NML says, I’m sure he’s not sitting around crying, looking at old photos, wanting to discuss! Looking forward to discussing moving on with you and all the rest of the site instead!
rules o grammar should be changed. Words like love and commitment should be considered verbs, as in action words that would no way include words like lying and excuses as any kind of adverb
“Your job in life isn’t to raise adults from the ground up. If you don’t think that a person knows the fundamental difference between right and wrong and you feel that they lack an affinity with basic respect, it’s time to step.”
Nat. Did u hear me shouting AMEN! from here?! Cuz I surely was…. Loud and clear! I had decided to give another chance to the recent boundary buster… then she made a repeat offense– a mean spirited personal attack that had me in tears. I kept thinking I just need to teach her basic human courtesy… Yeah, she’s an adult. There’s nothing that needs to be comprised (I’m kinda partial to my dignity and she seems hell bent on bringing me down) so there’s really nothing to talk about. Flush!
Tell them to kiss your Azzzzz and keep on going.
some things are so over the line that no excuse or explaination can possibly fit sleeping with your best friend cheating lying ,making excuses for your behavior making the other seem like there crazy party that is being stubborn, not vey understandingetc all need to be flushed all the men that want there cake and eat too must have that cake flushed.
I checked off five of the bullets for discussing but especially the first one applies to me.
“I want you to explain this to me to make me feel better about it so that I can go back to deluding myself about you.” Oh that hurts.
One thing that happened a lot with my ex is that he would say his boundary busting or his not being there for me in very important ways was just “a difference of opinion.” He always hid behind that and still does. That invalidated my feelings totally and kept him in his little bubble of non-engagement. You can excuse any kind of behaviour that way.
I think it is true that being involved in these entanglements made me talk too much. I do that a LOT less now ( I have made progress in that area!) but seem to have replaced it with “thinking too much.” That is a real downer on the self esteem.
Fabulous post Natalie. A real keeper. Thank you!
Espresso,
We have similar experience I think.
I got an email this last week… “I’m so sorry as you deserve a full explanation from me…i will email you soon with a full update on what has happened”.
Is he offering an explanation to see if I am still interested? I don’t know. The depression is the likely reason he will give me for non contact. Week later, nothing. Depression? Fishing?
Rachel,
If he disrespected and hurt you, does it really matter?
Hey Rachael, just something I thought I’d share with you, they do this, this avoidance thing, and then they get in contact and we search and search for what it must mean, and give great meaning to it, when sometimes (often, actually), it just means nothing other than ‘I’d still like to keep you in a holding pattern’. Which if you have any self respect, you cannot agree to (you don’t need to tell him you don’t agree, you can just not reply, without feeling guilty. If he really is sending you some huge explanation email about whatever dramas have befallen him, then let him send it then decide whether it’s a valid enough excuse?)
And the little story I wanted to share: my EUM ex of five years and I ended things in as nice a way as possible, fairly mature, left it 9 months then began gingerly emailing to see if we could be friends. The emails meant a lot to me because at the time, I still had a lot of feelings for him. I sent him a biggie in reply to his message, telling him how I’d been/what I’d been up to, answering his questions about work/life etc. Three weeks later, he sent me a text (a TEXT!) apologising for not replying to my email saying he had ‘intended to get around to it’. I replied saying that I looked forward to reading it and hoped he was well. A month later? Still no reply. By then I couldn’t even remember what I’d put in the first fricking email, it was all so irrelevant, but a classic example of the holding pattern thing. Basically like saying ‘I can’t be bothered to actually spend the time you’ve spent engaging in this, but I may feel like it in the future, so I’ll just hold you off for a few more weeks/months/whatever until I AM ready.’ Not good enough.
You have a choice to say ENOUGH, I really deserve better. Because you clearly do!
Thanks Amanda and BurnedAgain for ur comments.
Amanda, it was OUR behaviour that resulted in my pain.
BurnedAgain, I see similarities in our experiences. I struggle a little with your phrasing at one point …”Which IF YOU HAVE ANY SELF RESPECT, you cannot agree to”. I like to think I have self respect… I struggle in the self esteem realm (not sure if people see a difference). Thanks again
The first one got me too:/ Letting them explain with lies and feeling a sense of peace…until the next time and there is always a next time.
This was me too. To remember some of the “conversations” makes me sweat and feel that anxious and frustration all again. I have been out of this for over a year. When I read this it brought those terrible memories back, and makes me happy I’m out, but it also makes me so mad that I didn’t trust that awful feeling I would get as I broached yet another painful subject on how his behavior hurt me. I can see so clearly how I needed to rid myself of him and exactly how I would have done it. I wish I had. So much. But I know he probably hasn’t spontaneously combusted into a better person with his new girl. It is diminishing to let yourself go through this.
Perfect timing again! Tx, Nat!
I just did this-it was pure madness–like all those years of running after my narc mother, trying to find out the TRUTH, insisting she pay attention to ME and MY FEELINGS. As if!
I was absolutely in the grip of something–I was standing outside myself watching myself and I could not stop. Three hours on Facetime with this fool. No, I did NOT grill, it was more like, “Oh hey, so when you said x a few weeks ago, I never really got what you meant.” Jiminy! As if the TRUTH would ever be forthcoming, casual tone or not.
Here’s my big revelation: you can have a relationship with someone, then all of a sudden, PFFFTTT, the person you THOUGHT was there, isn’t there anymore. Gone! Evaporated! You’re left with a pile of unanswered questions, and all you can tell yourself is the individual you thought could answer them just does not exist anymore. It was your imagination all along. You conjured him/her based on your own needs and desires.
I love your column Natalie! Every read is a recharge for my dating life. You are an amazing reality check and support to people you don’t know and will never meet. Thank you so much.
you know when someone is busting your boundaries and so does the person doing it , a good way to gincontrol of the situation is to say something like come on you can do better than that and you know it too. Why do i keep letting you get away with this behavior? I know and you know I let you get you get away with some things but this? come on youve got to be kidding wha kind of a woman would I be if I lt you get away with that and how could you possibly think that im the type of woman that would. Maybe youve missed something.
I think that if they were not good communicators while you were with them, why lead ourselves to believe that miraculously they have developed better communication skills now that the relationship is over. I have literately read every single post here on BR and tons of responses from readers here on BR and what I noticed is that when they leave they leave and the majority could care less about communicating and doing the right thing. It’s as if they want to have the upper hand emotionally. If any of you like Sinefeld there is an episode where George wants to have the control in the relationship and he and Jerry go back and forth about “a man without hand is no man” I think there is a level of control that goes into relationship; endings in particular. The only way we can combat that is to accept that it is over. And follow one of the basic relationship breakup comandments NML wrote of here https://baggagereclaim.co.uk/the-10-commandments-of-breaking-up/ don’t call, don’t, email, don’t text. I suggest as do hundreds if not thousands of post replies on here and from personal experience if you are not ready to get rejected again don’t contact them seeking validation or an explanation. Read all these post and you will see the results are the same. Therefore I conclude as NML has stated over and over. Your situation, YES YOUR situation just like mine is not unique and more than likely your reply if any won’t be unique. Therefore if you want answers to why they did what they did you don’t have to contact them just read a few post replies and pick any one of them that you like. In addition just ask yourself what if they reply with the worst case scenerio how are you going to feel. Then feel it. You won’t like it. Now multiply it by 10 and that’s how bad you will feel after you get a reply and I say that lightly as most will not have the decency to reply. After over 60 days I felt strong that I would test the waters to see if I could reach her. I found her in FB with a loving picture of her and her supposedly EX and a post that read older and wiser with a heart next to it. All the hardwork and strength I felt was shattered instantly. More so because her last words to me where, Im not moving on with anyone and I just need some space to workout somethings. That she always loves me and Im a huge part of her life. I took a chance a blasted out a text and threatened to mail all the BS cards and gifts she had ever sent me to her EX house to elicit a reply. Sure enough she replied. Funny thing is she blames me saying I ended it so she moved on. I replied with Where was I when this happened? She asked for space and I gave it to her and left quietly even left it up to her to reach out when she wanted to chat. So again people, dodging responsibility. Not unique. Then just cause I love pain I asked “so what do you feel for me?” She said she had no idea and just new she wanted to be alone. She forgot to mention with her EX. Oh and I forgot to mention her explanation for the picture where “I don’t know what’s going on” obviously so why don’t you tell me? Nevermind I can come to BR and choose a BS explanation. I rambled off several more text and an email just along the lines of calling her out on all the lies. Not asking her back. Why would I ever want a person of such low character back after all the hurt. By the way I’m still waiting for a response. For those of you who know my story you can understand what I experienced.
So my advice is stay away. It’s not us. They all have an agenda and won’t care who they have to con, manipulate or play to get what they want and need. Don’t give up your power. NML have you considered polling? It would be intresting to see poll results for reaccuring themes or issues. For example: have you contacted your ex after a break up? Have they replied or ignored? LOL I’m sure those numbers might paint a picture for some.
Some people are so broken that if we are not careful they will break us also in their struggle not to feel so broken.
I have tons of issues to work through. More so how to heal from not only a broken heart, but so much deception, loss of self esteem, finances. She cleaned me out and is supposedly happy.
I guess I healed her right into the hands of her EX. Let the healing begin although it hurts much more now than a few months ago. Knowing the truth versus speculating and holding on to hopes give me a little better direction. Lastly, I’m not scared to go through the process as I have you ALL that have helped pick me up and give me strength to find a different path. Your comments, experiences and tough love is all appreciated and welcomed at this point, and always has been.
Free
Freetobec,
If only I could express myself the way you just did. Every single word hit a nerve. I’m also hurting much more now than a few months ago, and I agree it’s because we have stopped holding onto hopes and dreams and we can finally see through the lies and the deception. You’re going to be just fine Freetobec.
That is some deep stuff and so true!!!
“Some people are so broken that if we are not careful they will break us also in their struggle not to feel so broken.”
That pretty much covers what being with an EUM/W is all about.
freetobec – this is raw and honest and cuts to the bone. I’ve felt as you did, through my own experiences with the exMM. After a certain point, it becomes clear that we are the ones holding ourselves prisoner. None of these break-up stories are unique. So common that these AC/EU people conveniently have a new relationship to dive into. They may even say that the new relationship is helping them heal and become better people, but, rarely, it does. It only feels “healthier” because it is new, and the problems have yet to make themselves known. They will, in due time. Nevertheless, It makes things hurt all the worse. I feel bad for their new victims. They have inherited tons of ignored baggage. We may feel alone and rejected, but we are the ones who are free.
Brilliant post, Free, absolutely brilliant.
I asked the MM what he felt about me and he said, “I’ll call you when I know.” He thanked me for showing him how to treat a woman. Not! He did not care what hurtful things he said or how devastated I felt.
No, you didn’t get her all polished up for anyone else. She is the same person she was before. YOU are the one who is learning ad growing, facing your part in that relationship and applying it to your next one. These people conned us and themselves. They are on the road to nowhere. But then: who is interested?
You are so right! The next phone call or text will feel a lot worse. And no matter how much pain we experienced, we got off cheap.
Free2,
I had some similar crapola with my female ex (who was playing me all along while she was getting back with HEr ex).
I love the line you wrote:
Some people are so broken that if we are not careful they will break us also in their struggle not to feel so broken.
I am pretty sure this woman was so broken that she really had a need to break someone else (happened to be me, but could have been anyone).
Upon our breakup (course a cowardly over the phone hiding under a rock type of breakup), I realized that I would never ever ever ever want to talk to her again, so I made damn sure that I said every single thing I could think up. I did not want to have all those stupid repetative conversations in my head, so I made sure to say it all then and there on the phone, her under the rock etc…
That one got me for sure, I was broken for a while. I’m better now, but I don’t trust like I used to, which is both good and bad. I rarely think of her anymore.
Then her damn dog invites me to be it’s friend on facebook, and it opens the hole right back up for a few minutes.
I’ve quit FB all together now because I don’t want this ghost anywhere near me.
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant!! You nailed it. And yes, this was exactly who I was & what I did. And then finally!!!!…. I flushed that big ole turd down the toilet. It’s not without my sleepless nights & shedding many tears (still). I realized there were no more conversations to be had. I need to start showing up for me and learn to love myself. Work in progress but its better than those crappy as& crumbs I was so welcoming in. Learning. Day. By. Day.
Thank you Natalee.
My ex and I had SO MANY discussions. Usually on the phone (funnily enough) after his crap behaviour. He hadly ever wanted to talk things over in person, and if he did it was usually because he was tipsy! A few examples of when such discussions would occur…we had planned to meet up, he didnt show, I rang his house as his cell was off, to see if he was on his way, he wasnt, in fact he was hung over, he had no excuse, not even a feeble one, and then he hung up! No contact until the next week where we had a discussion, everything seemed rosy…another time we had planned to meet up, it was all on, then he decided to go and hang out with his bother last minute, got a text later that night saying that he was on his way over…he didnt turn up. Didnt get a hold of him until the following night. His excuse? He was locked up for DUI, the discussion didnt occur until a couple days later. All was well for a wee while, and then…plans were made for the weekend. Friday night everything was all on, then Saturday night he had a custody discussion with his wife (separated 4 years, not divorced, no talk of divorce) turns out she wasnt happy with us hanging out when he had his daughter (I totally understood) so Sunday plans were cancelled. Chatted on the phone the Sunday night, he seemed a bit sheepish.odd. Monday morning he calls up, turns out he and his (ex)wife kissed on the Saturday night, he slept over “but nothing happened”…oh aside from the fact that she wanted to reconcile, AND until Monday morning he was seriously considering it!! Tells me he decided against it, and the ball was in my court. Stupidly enough I sid as long as it didnt happen again and you guessed it a discussion ensued. With all the discussions I laid out how I felt and he said very little, left the decision to continue the relationship up to me…luckily for me this whole debacle only lasted a few months. So tiring. FLUSH!
Mereanne,
The first time they blow you off: FLUSH!
Allison, No doubt!! You hit the nail on the head. And those are only a few of the examples of when he would blow me off and make excuses!!Ive been reading BC for a wee while and I have read comments where women stay with AC’s for years and years! And endure the same kind of behaviour. I am glad things ended after only a few months. But they were the most tiring few months!! And I have learnt like you say, to FLUSH after the first time. I gave him sooo many chances, thinking things will get better, hes just a little broken/lost over his separation. I just need to be patient. Now, after this break-up, I am going to register this behaviour in future as a definite dealbreaker, rather than give 2nd, 3rd…20th chances. I wont compromise my boundaries, values, self esteem just to keep a man who obviously has little care for me and/or the “relationship”.
Mereanne,
Smart! Glad you didn’t stick around!!!!
There idiots can be a great lesson in what we shouldn’t tolerate.
Good luck!
Thanks Allison, its taken me a few AC/frogs/idiots to come to that conclusion. But my last AC really drove the point home. I think I needed to learn that lesson so that I could focus on me, something that you can lose sight of when you are with an energy sucking, selfish, immature AC(s). Im taking a break from the dating scene. Im just going to focus on being a mum, my job which I LOVE, and all the things that I enjoy and make me, me! I just wish I had hot footed it out of there sooner! But no point dwelling on the past.lesson learnt.Now with any future dates I am going in armed with my BR arsenal of knowledge, and my boundaries/values intact! Thanks Natalie and everyone who has posted on here!
please put him in the incinerator. you deserve a man who will put you first.
Exactly Pax!I always felt like I was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY down on his list of priorities ALL the time…after his daughter (which of course is a given, I totally understand that), but also after his (ex)wife, his family, his friends, his work…I really don’t know if I even registered on his priorities to be honest! All his excuses was him putting everyone/everything else before our relationship. I put in so much energy and he just put just enough to maintain my interest…lol @ incinerator…
perfectly timed as usual.
Loved the what discussion means: list.
anyhow. what i’ve found really hurts is the void left behind when you realize they just don’t (and never did) give a crap.
that one gets you in the gut.
but, giving a crap about MYSELF feels pretty good. taking back the only thing I have power over: ME.
NC feels good. powerful
Miss Jess, I feel for you. Self Esteem is a hell of a thing. Once you lose it it becomes a challenge to regain. What has helped me to be confident and know my worth was reading this blog post by post. I read some if not all of Nat’s older posts going back a few years. I also looked at the relationships that I had that worked for the time it lasted and how good I felt in them. My thought process now is I deserve the best just like everyone else. If a guy doesn’t bring his best then he can’t have mine and subsequently is a waste of my time. I also believe if I don’t feel like I can be my complete self with a man then we’re incompatible.
Another thing I’ve done is to love myself wholly and completely. If you put the focus back on you -accomplishing goals, enjoying the life that you have- I think you may not feel so lonely. In any event look into the mirror and see a beautiful woman who deserves just as much as you’re willing and wanting to give to a man. Smile at yourself and know that despite everything you’ve been through you are the hotness that is! Resolve to act accordingly…this should help with your self esteem issues.
About two month or so ago I reconnected with a FWB who I got along with well. I had cut things off when I realized he was someone I could actually be with (he was happy with the original situation). We communicated at least once a week. About two weeks ago we saw each other and as usual all my boundaries went out the window (I stop thinking around him). So needless to say we were intimate on the same day we saw each other after a 6 month NC. After he left he texted me saying he enjoyed my company. I responded saying I did as well but maybe too much. The following day he texted me saying Hey and I responded that night. Two days later he texted asking if I was busy cause he wasn’t hearing from me. Long story short I didn’t know how to act or what to think after our night so I decided to go the act cool like nothing happened route. Then I shifted after I felt he was trying to connect or something. Now about 3 weeks after we saw each other we still haven’t really talked about what happened and he’s too busy to see me. After making several attempts to chat and see each other I’m starting to feel like I’m chasing. Sunday I texted him telling him I would like to see him (not to be intimate). Monday he responded that he should be getting off the following day early and we could meet and I agree. The following day he texts me to see what time I get off work and to say where we should meet. Later on in the day he texts me to say he has to work and won’t be able to meet after all. I said ok. He hasn’t contacted me since. His excuse is legitimate but I’m not sure if he’s also avoiding me. I do feel as if our communication has changed as well. This post has come in a timely manner as I was thinking I’m done chasing and going to flush. I do like him, enjoy his company and some of our views are very similar.
Stace, FLUSH, FLUSH, FLUSH!
What are you doing? Going back for more? I assume you went NC for 6 months for a reason.
You say you stop thinking when you are around him. Well, honey you are not around him now; it is time to start thinking. This guy is unavailable and if it feels like you are chasing it is because you are. Doesn’t feel to good does it?
It sounds like you have some work to do on your own first before you get involved with another person. You need to be able to think in all situations. If you can’t treat yourself with love, care, trust, and respect, how can you expect someone else to?
Oh NancyW I laughed when I read your post about the explaining, the puppy dog eyes and the email coming later about being a bad person. This was what happened to me! Even though I had the issue or concern to bring up, he would quickly go to the “I am bad person” routine and it would end up with ME supporting him and telling he “really was a nice guy.” Now I just see this was just a form of manipulation and a way of making me feel guilty and distracting me from a real conversation about real issues that could have really brought us closer. I spent a lot of time trying to “reassure him.” Over time this form of “blocking” just made me furious and frustrated.
When various therapists tried to explain to him the concept of listening and validating when I brought something up, he would sort of try but roll his eyes and sigh deeply which sort of ruined the whole point. Body language can be as loud as words.
Sometimes when I brought up something that hurt or upset me (always using the I words, always trying to be kind – I was so careful about that even though it didn’t do any good – even before I finished he would say, “when do I get to complain about you?” Of course he hardly ever brought up a real emotional issue related to me. His anger at having to “deal with me” came up in complaints like I was not rolling up the blinds properly. He found it absolutely impossible to engage in a meaningful way so of course I always looked like the bitch and sometimes felt like it too.
This idea that “I am a bad person or I don’t think I can change and be the kind of person you need” strikes me as being just so phoney. Sort of like your bank manager saying…I will “try” not to steal from your account but I don’t know if I can stop myself so perhaps you should consider another bank.” I can’t imagine saying this myself if I love and cared for someone and really wanted to make something work.
Another thing he does when I try to talk about anything personal is get up and does his dishes, or walks into the bedroom, or answers a text, etc. When I say, please sit down and focus on what I am saying, he responds “I’m listening.” Drives me crazy. And like you said, the only thing the discussions do is make him look like the victim, and yes, I end up apologizing to him for all the bad things I say. I’ve even told him that I am the one that needs to work on having less boundaries. That is desperation of wanting his approval so badly. I need to get a grip on who I am and forget about trying to have a meaningful discussion. It’s totally fruitless!
LMAO at the illustration, Nat!!! Worth a thousand words.
Though the article was spot on too. Holy shit, girl. Do you sleep??? How do you have the time and mental fortitude to crank out these gems?? 🙂
I think it’s what happens when we get off the drama train….all of that creative energy that fuels our obsessions gets re-channeled into something useful 🙂
Solid advice.When someone betrays you in such a manner, they have already expressed by actions they don’t value you on a higher level than verbal communication, so why spend energy trying to speak to someone that has no valued opinion of your being, your feelings, spirit, soul? If they have no value of the parts of a person as deep as those sacred parts, any type of verbal exchange is meaningless to them. They’ll just play a long in a discussion untill it’s over. Kinda like a wrapper on a sandwich serves its purpose to keep things from getting messy til the last bite & then it is thrown away. They can’t comprehend someone was actually worried that their health or safety was in jepredy so much as to call hospitals because they have no opinion of the value of the person that has true concern for their well being. If they don’t give a rats-butt on that level, a discussion in their mind is like foriegn background noise. It’s rough. IMO betrayl is the hardest emotion to process. It falls into the WHY-catagory. It took me 20years to realize that there are some “whys”in life that can not or ever will be explained or answered. Once I learned that, an aw-ha..moment, it made many things & situations much easier to manage, accept,deal with or sometimes not-waste of energy & time. To me learning that really helps with closure more quickly & life carries on. No energy or time spent in thought or in matters of the heart causing destabling anguish to the point of mental & physical sickness.Trying to answer a why that never has an answer is a thief taking bits of your core being chipping away at your spirit & soul.There is never an end because there is never an answer. The ass never had any thought towards those beautiful facets existing in you, so why give them to him voluntarly after the fact when he is absent & gone or even in a discussion-he is absent during that as well.Easier said than done my advice & took me a LONG time to learn. Not as long to master though. Once it clicks & you start to use your new knowledge of processing things in a better to yourself way, Sugar you can say been here done this-whew glad it’s over, bounce that head & keep on stepping. Looking forward to the excitement of a new adventure.I’ve learned the unknown is only scarey when I am weak & or troubled in some manner, self-esteem low, letting the fear of loosing familarity play with my mind,not thinking I can make ends meet financially, etc…manipulating partners can make you feel these things & or you can do it to yourself.That’s why Natlie’s advice of boundries is excellent. Boiling H2O is hot, we never go to soak our hand in it.Boundries like that, that you have in place keep you stable & on course. I’ve learned that from her post.It isn’t a sweet bed or roses every damn day, we are human, thigs will flucate & change.But when I started waking up in the morning & the day started being about ME & what challenging, great things were going to transpire around & about & inside of me, slowly everything else positive falls into place.I’m getting better & I don’t miss the old parts of me that were longing & self-defeating.I was looking for validation on the outside, instead of nurshing & working on the inside of my being.That when in full bloom will never let me down. Validation from the outside can be manipulated, given or taken away, you have no control.When at full steam coming from the inside, that’s a boundry no one can cross & if they dare try-whoa to them-watch out.The feeling is liberating, unexplainable.I just got rid of one that though I couldn’t totally prove it, I was starting to know deep down he’d screw anyone that would let him. We not live together, but I realised he’s dangerous & I am worth more than that. It is a learning & growing process. Once I have a 100% of me & walk with my head high, that is what I’ll attract. It’s been a long time coming & I work hard, love hard & can play hard. I just never gave myself enough credit to realise I could do it by myself or include another person. Be blessed. It’s his loss. The old saying is true.He might find himself in a hospital & no one call or look for him & that 3 dayer he did to you, while he’s layed up ALONE will be being done to him.Karma is a bitch. Not wishing that exact scene on him, but I’m just saying….Ya know!Be Blessed.
I’ve had the experience of a two year on & off ” relationship” with an assclown. Each time we got together their behavior deteriorated more & more… Verbal abuse, abandonment, projection,etc. Got dizzy from the Circus coming to town too many times. This post is Exactly What I Need Right Now! I am ashamed of how many chances I’ve given this silent selfish stonewalling mf!
They couldn’t or wouldn’t answer this point
blank question: “do you want to contribute to my quality of life? Yes or no?”
Guess not!
FLUSH!!!
Remember …narcs have no empathy & feel no remorse!
I pray we all find true love in self love & our Serenity !
Ty everyone on this blog for sharing & Nat for her generous contribution! You all are an inspiration!
One day @ a time!
Such a brilliant post Natalie. You absolutely nailed it. It applies totally to my pitiful attempts to get the ex to “go back to being that guy from the beginning.” He wouldn’t ever discuss it. He actually physically ran away from me once when I tried to have “the talk” as he knew I was going to dump him (again)
I also recognised my mother when you talked about how some people just do not know right from wrong. She doesn’t and she never will. She thinks it is her right as my mother to betray me, to verbally abuse me, to manipulate me and try to turn my own children against me. I have tried for so many years to discuss, to forgive, to manage her behaviour and normalise it. I have been NC with her since Easter and I can’t see that changing. Having to Flush your own mother seems so drastic but the damage it has done to my self esteem is so extreme and I am just worn out with trying to fix her. A discussion would just be playing into her gaslighting, crazymaking hands.
This is something I really struggle with – when we were together my ex often pulled the silent treatment/ disappearing acts and then he would reappear and I would be so thankful to see him again that I wouldn’t dare bring up the topic of what made him angry (usually I had’t the foggiest) – a massive sign he wasn’t a positive communicator – since we have been apart a lot of his betrayals have come to light and I have been guilty of engaging with him to try to make sense of it – telling him how hurt I am etc – in this instances he is always cold, indifferent and just says things like ‘I can see where this conversation is going so i’m shutting it down’ He refuses to admit to any of it, including the fact that he has a new gf (who he started seeing when he was with me) it’s so bizarre, it’s like he actively doesn’t want me to have closure – when he brings up the fact I still have some of my stuff there, I say ok when do you want me to collect it, he just doesn’t reply – it is amssively frustrating! I have been full NC for 2 weeks now and at the moment I am positive about it, I need to stop applying logic to his behaviour as in reality there is none – I think I want him to feel my hurt but he doesn’t have the emotional depth – it is hard not to see the new woman as ‘better’ and myself sadly lacking. However in reality their relationship is nothing special – she is pregnant with a child that may or may not be his, she ends the relationship with him every other week, sleeps over at other guys houses etc! I think she fuells his need for drama
Like so many of you above, I too am really struggling to mentally FLUSH!
I was with my Ex AC for 9 months – 5months amazing, 3months hot and cold, 1 month dreadful! He ‘dumped’ me by not answering the phone for a week. We work together. Its been very difficult. He said and did some very shady things in the relationship.We broke up about a month ago. I was initially devastated but in finding BR, I’ve been feeling increasingly strong and my perspective has definitely changed.
After telling him not to contact me and ignoring a lot of calls / texts etc, I broke NC and picked up a call. We actually had a good chat about what had happened and why we couldn’t stay in contact etc, he agreed we shound;t speak for a few months at least. Then he contacted me a week or so ago and I ignored it. Now he says he ‘hates me’ and to ‘leave him alone’ and never speak to him again. He’s ignoring me in the corridoors and it hurts like hell. I KNOW I shouldn’t care and I KNOW he probably wasn’t good for me but all of a sudden I miss him. All of a sudden Im thinking – ‘Im still not over this guy, maybe he was something special’? What if noone loves me like he did again! What if I never feel that strongly again? The relationship wasn’t all bad, he had many good points but he also had a lot of unresolved issues. I just feel like I want to break NC and call him and try to understand why I still love him and why Im suddenly fantasising about the good times and getting back with him? I know I need to flush, I thought I was nearly there but now Im backtracking and its a horrible feeling…of failure! Im not even sure wheer its coming from? I mean, I felt I’d reached the acceptance phase. I could see him for what he was – damaged. Now Im back wondering why I wasn’t good enough for him to respect my boundaries. We had a lot of talks about the way he spoke to me (esp when drunk). He always said I was ‘too sensitive’ and all his friends agreed that I was ‘too nice’ for someone like him and he was ‘bad news’.
Help! Is it normal to go back to this stage? Im crying over it all over again and I was doing so well! 70% of me can see that this relationship was making me miserable and anxious and stressed out. 30% of me wonders if I’ll ever feel that kind of ‘connection’ again and its making me think I’ve lost something special! x
Hey Stuck,
It is completely normal – I split up with my ex in January and I have the feelings that you have described about not meeting anyone else etc, but this is just a feeling it is not based on fact – he is not treating you with love or respect – ending a relationship and then not giving the person breathing space is just cruel. It is ok to still want him, that will take time to change but it is acting on the want that you need to resist – I stayed with my ex for 3 yrs, 1 year of that relationship I was genuinely happy the next 2 it was him breaking up and making up with me when he felt like it and my self esteem has suffered because of my decision to stay
A Little,
When you are thinking about the good times, remember that almost half of the relationship was inconsistent and drama-filled. He is clearly showing that he is not respecting you: calling you the following week, after you have decided not to speak for several months.
He is not respecting you, nor is he concerned that you are healing.
Time to start looking and absorbing his actions, as they demonstrate exactly where he is at.
Please don’t continue to do this to yourself!
A little bit stuck,
Yes, it is very, very normal. You cycle through the phases of grief. He told you that he hates you! You don’t want to be someone who is so cruel and childish. Keep your head up high when you see him at work do not engage. Remind yourself as often as necessary all the mean things he has said and done to you. Breaking up with you by ignoring is the worst. My guy broke up with me by text and I thought that was awful. Being ignored is terrible.
Please stay committed to NC, you are strong enough to get through this. Find your inner strength; it is in there!
Marie, Alison, Melissa,
Thanks for the messages. Its a big relief to hear you say that its normal to still feel like this. I see so many posts here from women who genuinley seem to have seen the light and moved on and I just feel so weak for not being able to get there. I dont know whats wrong with me. I can see all the bad, I can remember how the bad times made me feel but I just can’t seem to get past this notion that maybe he was the one for me. Even if it was far from perfect, there were very strong feelings on both sides – thats hard for me to ignore I guess. I haven’t broken NC as yet and I really dont want to. Im just not in a good place with it all right now. I feel a bit lost anf lonely and sad that I can’t ever seem to make a relationship work. This guy said I was everything he ever wanted, then suddenly he’s pushing me away. Some of the ‘horrible’ things he said about me were very very true, which is why it made it hard to hear. He has his issues and I definitely have mine. I do sometimes wonder if Im just meant to be alone. Everyone else seems to be able to forge healthy, successful, lasting relationships but I can’t seem to hold on to a guy. I guess thats no reason to hold on to someone who doesn’t want to hold on to you though, hard as that is to accept.
Melissa, him ‘dumping’ me by ignoring my calls/texts, when he knew full well he’d have to see me at work whenever he decided to come back in after his ‘breakdown’ was almost laughable. Im sorry your Bf dumped you over text -thats very impersonal and cowardly. It reminds me of ‘Burger’ dumping Carrie (SATC) on a postit note – classic!
I guess like many of you, I will get there in the end. I just hope I can start to move forward again, rather than backwards! x
Stuck,
Don;t be so hard on yourself, it is early days – my ex has dumped me by text (multiple times) and I waited every time for him to come back to me even though I knew that he had left to pursue other women – believe me it is not worth it – my ex finally replaced me by getting someone else pregnant and ending it with me under the guise that he didn’t know what he wanted and no-one else was involved, he wanted to move away, take a course when in fact he is living in a crummy bedsit in a dead end job, smoking weed all day and fathering a child when he is still a child himself. Space does bring clarity – I am nowhere near being over this but in the last couple of weeks I have realised that I don’t want ‘him’ back, I want the person I thought he was (the fantasy) It is horrible because it is like getting over the death of a loved one but the person who is dead is still walking around but behaving like someone else. My advice would be not to expect too much to soon, don’t expect to not care as soon as you start taking positive action it doesn’t work like that but little by little things will get easier
A little bit stuck,
He is not the one for you. Why do I know that? Because you deserve more than that and you know it. You fell for his words and the strong feelings. Feelings are nothing to base a relationship on. Listen to all of his words, not just the ones you like. You fell for him and you got duped. It is sad and it really sucks, but it is time to not dwell on things and banish the thoughts that don’t help you move on.
I thought my ex was the one too; I was convinced of it. I had never had those feelings before. I had never experienced what I felt was such a strong connection before. And yes he felt it to, but then one day he changed his mind and it was over, but while it lasted everything was perfect. It was the best relationship I have ever had and that made it all the harder to get over. 5 months later I am still processing it all. The major thing that I realized is that I have never been happy being single. My unhappiness has led me to jump into relationships to soon, ignore red flags, and I end up make the guy my world. It is always devastating when it end. I think it important to get really happy and content being single, so that when a AC or EUM comes along you can spot them and getting to stepping because you would rather be alone than be with them.
Thansk so much Melissa and Marie. I guess I am hard on myself. Im just frustrated at feeling this way when I know I ‘should’ be moving on. I feel weak and stupid but I know this type of thing has happened to many women and people do get over this kind of big ‘love’. you’re right, it just takes time and it hasn’t been that long.
Melissa, thanks for explaining your situ, it helps so much to know someone else has felt like this. I’m just worried that I wont ever get over him. No one else will ever match up to that feeling I felt with him and no one will ever see me how he did. I think if Im honest, I’ve just become exhausted by trying to fight the urges to contact him or fight myself to not submit to fantasising about getting back together, which I clearly still want on some level.
Marie, you’re right, I am hankering after the ‘good’ him, not necessarily the real him. Its a tricky one. I have no idea how to get mysefl back on track because at the mo Im in a bit of a sad slump. Im crying again and although I KNOW I too need to learn to be happy on my own, at the mo, it feels like only speaking to him could make me feel better. Deep down, I know it would be a wuick fix and I’d feel even worse after.
I broke NC last night (I know). I text him telling him I know he thinks I dont care but I missed him and I still think about him all the time. He didn’t even respond which is shocking really, considering he was texting and calling me constantly a few weeks back, telling me how much he loves me and he’s never felt that close to someone blah blah. He’s obviously over it / me and thats hard to accept. However, in a way, I guess its slightly freeing, I can’t hang onto the fantasy if he isn’t even doing that anymore.
I’ll get there, I just need to summon the energy to start thinking about it from a different perspective again. At the mo, Im allowing myself to cling on to this idea of him / us and it just doesn’t exist anymore.
Thanks for the support girls. its much appreciated. Sorry Im so negative at the mo! Im becoming one of those girls that just doesn’t get it and I know Im bright enough to know better really! x
Stuck,
my ex did the cold shoulder act for years – he would ignore me when I was pleading with him to communicate or when I was pouring my heart out in a text message because he wouldn’t see me/speak to me but as soon as I stopped he would be texting/ringing me and as soon as i responded he disappeared again – he was just checking I was still there should he ‘need me’. NC is one of the hardest things you can do and I do have slip ups but they are become less frequent. My ex is with someone else now ut I know as soon as it ends it will be my door he will be darkening with the sob stories and the i’m sorry’s but there is no happy ending with these men only more pain and misery
Great post, Natalie!
I had recently gone no contact with ex bf and I broke it. I told him my reasons for breaking no contact were because the last time we talked he was so mean to me. He had told me I was codependent and had serious issues and needed to see a therapist and not to text him anymore. What I’m realizing (because I get confused by his words/actions) is that he he were truly sorry he would have called, right? Oh, then he sends me a mothers day card…we end up seeing each other to talk and i unload on him again. He tells me he loves me and misses me terribly and doesnt know what to do. I told him he doesnt make sense, him missing me because hes the obe who choose the break up, it wasnt mutual. He tells me that when i tell him the things he does when we are back together for awhile is crazy making, narcisscistic ways, it scares him. Part of me feels like hes two different people sometimes. Hes extremely giving and helpful and kind and loving, and then hes hard on me and flighty and likes to try and fix my problems and projects his issues as mine…why is it so hard to clear my mind and start letting go and moving on??? Why do I feel so lost and confused now too????
Tabitha, I have the mom situation in common! My mom and I have had an off again, on again relationship. It’s on right now, but just alittle bit here and there. But I’ve noticed lately she’s so quick to throw quick jabs my way and then she says things like, I’m joking or relax or I love you right after those jabs. Then there’s times where I’m just sharing something special with her and she changes the subject or she literally leaves the room? And all this is happening more since my ex bf and I have stopped talking. I feel sometimes like the universe is not on my side and no matter how hard I try, the universe doesn’t want me happy…
Sorry to hear that Wendy. It sucks! My mum will say really nasty things to me and when I look at her, aghast, she just stares right back. That reptilian look. Makes me want to vomit.Being Nc with her is difficult because my teenage kids still see her, but I have to protect myself and my already fragile self esteem from her constant digs and lying. Good luck!
Nat, you are so amazing and insightful and helping untold numbers of women, including me! I laughed out loud at the Dream Girls reference. You have a gift.
Marilyn, Orlando
Emeraldeyez
As a fellow resident of your state, I hope you get a serious injunction against your abusive ex. Look up “Vonnies Law” on the web. Hopefully it can be used in your case if needed. I knew her. Nat is sooo right; it is not our job to fix broken people. That is what many are, broken, probably for good, often by choice. Good luck, eh?
OMG, thank god i found this page. For the last 3 years i have been through hell with my now ex. He has cheated on me and twisted things on me, lied to me again twisting things on me again and even beaten me (only the once) and again used excuses to justify his actions.
You probably wonder why i stay but when things where good, they were amazing….i thought he was my best friend and he was the only one who (i thought) understood but saying this out loud… i was definitely deluded
Due to our awful ups and down in our relationship it was always going to fail and over the last 2 month we have be trying to break away from each other…. but deep down i think he is seeing someone else as he hasn’t contacted me recently nor being interested, where before he would always make contact.
My downfall in the past is wanting to have discussion about the behaviors of us both and wanting him to show some real understanding to the things he has done but your quote sums it up….
I want you to explain this to me and make me feel better about it so that I can go back to deluding myself about you.
HA! It’s so true but what’s the point… i will never get the truth.
I have relapsed as spent the weekend with him and have arranged to meet him tomorrow (weak moment) but having NC with him this week has help as its made me stronger, so I will NOT BE going, he doesn’t deserve my time… if i have Contact like you say I will have to start over again and i just want to move on… i know i will have weak moments and I do hurt very much at time but this is when i hope you ladies can help? X
Thanks for reading my story/ problems/ issues LOL xx
Emily,
It sounds like your ex has treated you horribly and is there a reason you are agreeing to see him again? I am not sure that “NC for a week” counts as true NC. For your sake, I hope you did NOT see him that next time. Strength to you.
Hi Learner.
I agreed cos i wanted things to be nice between us. I am pleased to say that i didnt contact him nor met him BUT I did break the NC yesterday…. Due to FB, I had a worry about a certain girl and my worry came true… he has been chasing her the whole time so i let my emotionals get the best of me and contacted him and as always he went mental, screaming and shouting at me down the phone… i so should of read this page before contacting as no good would of come from it. He called this morning which i ignored and emailed apologizing for speaking to me so badly. I just want this whole breaking up to be as painless as poss and i know the NC will help that. Boo me to crumbling due to emotions.
I am so looking forward to the day i dont care…
Hi Emily,
It’s good you did not see him, but too bad he screamed at you after you contacted him. If you want to get on with NC and healing from this, may I suggest deleting him from Facebook, and even blocking him. The less you know about him, the better. I remember how tough it was to actually defriend the ex, but it was a relief not to have to see what he was up to. NC equals no new pain. Best of luck!
Emily, I completely understand how you feel. Its very hard to reconcille your own feelings about someone when there are these consistant highs and lows. The highs make you feel almost ellated and so close to that person, then the lows storm in and make you question yourself and everything about the relationship. My ex bf never hit me, though he did once threaten violence when he was drunk. I think you and I both know that however good the highs were, the lows were just too debilitating. I became so anxious and confused, always anticipating the next low. I couldn’t sleep, I couldn’t concentrate at work, I lost my appitite for food and life in general. Thats surely NOT a sustainible relationship, however much I loved him / he loved me. It was a strong, powerful love but it wasn’t a healthy love.
You dont deserve to be lied to, cheated on, beaten, made to feel worthless. No one deserves that. I know its so hard to break free. Its very difficult to cut the emmotional ties but keep reading NML’s blogs – I found the posts on ‘why do men blow hot and cold’ and ‘code red and amber behaviours’ a real help.
I lapsed from NC yesterday and a few weeks back. Its hard and it takes a lot of energy, However, I am FINALLY understanding that no good can come from maintaining contact with this man. I always feel sad after, whether he’s saying nice things, or horrible things. Whether he’s calling me and Im having to ignore it, or Im texting him and not getting a response.It all just prolongs the agony. In my longest period of NC, I honestly did start to feel better, it was like a weight had been lifted and I also felt very proud of myself for having the strength and the self respect to put a STOP to this toxic relationship and look out for myself for a change.
So, good for you making the first step and deciding to cut this off now. I wish you the very best of luck xxx
i have really always felt this way about toxic relationships, but have found that often other people in my life view ‘flushing’ as a cruel way to deal with things and give me unwelcome grief. i ‘flushed’ my passive aggressive sister almost 14 years ago now and to this day old and new friends consistently frown upon my decision to ‘cut off’ a sibling. there comes a time when discussion is no longer an option as it becomes the ‘same old, same old’. i am very comfortable not having my sister in my life, actually so much happier and i’ll admit i rarely think about her now, but sometimes it gets to me when i am judged by others for this decision. i truly don’t buy into ‘family is everything’ as if respect doesn’t exist and you still stick by your family member through thick and thin life can become a living hell.
i am also finding right now that my friends are giving me grief about my ‘no contact’ with the assclown i am trying to extricate from my life. he appears, to them, to be very sorry for all that he has done and is milking the sympathy card. they see the ‘great guy’ that he shows them, not the lying and cruel person he showed me over and over for the last 4 years. i am continuously getting the ‘he’s not that bad’ comment from many of them. i am not cruel to stop the same old discussions, but just finally taking control and getting the heck out! i have a feeling i may lose a few friends before this is all said and done.
amanda-
i am sorry for the prospect of losing friends. but they are not being friends to you, anyway, if they cannot see your side and/or sell you into the arms of a manipulator. 4 years??? no. enough.
Amanda, I can totally relate! When I cut off my parents (psychopathic mother and pedophile father) several years ago people’s reactions were very similar. I even had to go NC with my grandmother as well because she kept bringing up that old “It takes two to tango” adage, implying that all that abuse my parents inflicted upon me was my fault too. I’m so not buying this (anymore)!
Unfortunately, many people don’t like it when we take a firm stand against evil and abuse. Either because they are shady themselves… or because they are in deep denial about the bad nature of some other people.
This is a painful experience, but please stay strong because it is worth it! If you lose those so-called “friends”, then good riddance to them! I’m quite sure you are going to find nicer, healthier friends once you got rid of that baggage! It might take some time though – so be patient!
Thanks everyone for the wonderful words and support! I am very much a strong supporter of NC, but feel it’s definitely a last resort and do not implement it without deep thought. I also believe in trying to put myself in other people’s proverbial shoes whenever possible. For example the friends that are giving me a tough time now re the assclown are all men, who all enjoy the AC’s company. My AC is a charming,funny and intelligent guy and if you’re not emotionally attached to him he’s pretty cool to hang out with. So I assume that my friends are experiencing a sense of sadness and discomfort as we can’t all get together like we used to – the dynamic has changed and they have lost as well. I do hope that this will change as I have some great guys there, but if it doesn’t I certainly won’t think less of them :). Partly b/c it was my choice to go NC and not theirs and also I don’t want to hold onto negative thoughts.
I once many years ago went NC on a gal that was extremely negative (one of her favourite games was to ‘spot the uglies’ – horrible horrible game!). To this day I am amazed that I had her in my life for as long as I did. Anyway, to my point, when I cut her off every girlfriend we had in common cut me off as well. It truly didn’t bother me and I didn’t engage in any of the name calling or judging of others that went on and soon enough they all just left me alone. Recently (4 years after NC started) I recently heard through a mutual acquaintance that everyone has now gone NC with with the same gal. People’s true colours always emerge — just gotta wait a little bit!
Amanda, sometimes it takes people quite a while before they see the light… And believe it or not, the fact that you’ve cut off a toxic person early on might have helped them to see the light as well (even it took them some more years). It’s not fair… first they “punish” you for your courage, but later it turns out that you did them a favor.
I have an aunt who cut off my entire toxic family 15 years before I did. Before, they had put her through hell for decades because she had married a guy with the “wrong” religious denomination (my grandfather who kept attacking her was in an incestuous marriage himself, but that was purportedly not “wrong”…).
I was a teenager back then and of course I sided with my family at the time (although this was painful for me because I liked my aunt). Anyway, later on, when I made the choice to go NC, knowing that she had done the same made things easier for me! It gave me some kind of validation even if I wasn’t in touch with her anymore.
Btw, it’s the same problem with serial bullies at the workplace. Sometimes they drive out lots of talented coworkers (or make them seriously sick) over the years until management choses to do something about them. In the end, the bullies usually lose, but it’s not a good idea to wait for that to happen because it can take very long. Get out, even if you think you are the only one to do so!
Btw, to many people it is “off-limits” to admit that they don’t love their parents. But I truly don’t love mine. How could I love two people who gave me death threats everyday and found it incredibly funny to sexually molest me?
I never loved them, but I was trauma bonded to them. I used to think this was “love” (plus I thought I had to love them because everybody said so…). But it was never true. Continued abuse NEVER leads to true love.
I feel so sick… As I’ve mentioned before, I’m going to change jobs because my current workplace has become increasingly toxic. Anyway, I have to stay in my current position until the end of the year because of my contract.
In the meantime, the rest of the team is already making plans about which activities to ditch once I’ve left. Due to a hiring freeze, they aren’t going to replace me, but mind you, the team has been smaller in the past without being THAT lazy!
When I saw our team leader’s list of recommendations (which, apparently, they sent directly to the CEO), I stared at it in disbelief. They want to give up on any activities I stood for, for which I’d gotten praised and which (in my opinion) made us stand apart from competition. They want to limit themselves to mere routine work, totally give up on networking which is so important in our industry (and at which I excelled) as well as on anything that requires creativity and imagination.
If I wanted to self-destruct professionally, I would send a list exactly like that to our CEO! On the other hand, our management has become so unpredictable that I’m not even sure how they are going to react.
Our team leaders even recommend to leave a committee that meets once a month in order to strategically discuss the future of our business division. Most teams send their leader, but our team leader delegated this task to me. Apparently they weren’t even aware of the importance of this panel. To me, opting out of it sounds like professional suicide. I even told them so. I know it’s futile and they don’t deserve it anyway, but I couldn’t help myself.
It is so painful. It’s like they want to rob me of any validation. On the other hand it totally confirms my decision to leave (at almost all cost…) and my impression that I was getting bullied. If they really hated my guts and my creativity so much (because it made them look bad in comparison I guess), then good riddance. Sigh.
EllyB,
In my humble opinion, they sound envious of you. I agree with your last sentence. It seems they have systematically and willfully tried to invalidate everything you stand for. Is your new job still available to you after having to stay in this one till the end of the year? Is there any way you can break this contract? Is there someone in your organization who you CAN have a helpful discussion with and have them advocate for you? Hugs xo
Learner: Thanks! Fortunately, my new job is still available to me because they already knew about this when giving me my contract. They weren’t happy (of course not), but they swallowed it. Anyway, sticking it out here for more than half a year is extremely painful. It sometimes makes me physically sick.
I’ve started talking to people in other departments, telling them exactly what is going on in our team (especially with our deputy team leader who has absolutey no ideas herself and is bad at networking and therefore talks everybody else out of doing ANYTHING great). I used to believe “rocking the boat” like that wasn’t wise, that you should always bow to your leaders. Anyway, I need to do it for my own sanity. Not bowing down to them, not pretending to swallow their BS seems the only way to survive all those months.
I’ve started spreading the word about that infamous paper of theirs, too. I feel “guilty” for this, like a traitor, but continued “loyalty” would kill me at his point.
Btw, when I read this paper carefully, it really seems to be meant to be a slap into my face. I think she crafted it (together with our team leader, that AC) to take revenge. After all, when I handed in my notice, I had told our management what she had done to me.
I think this is why they handed me a copy of this paper (in a meeting together with the entire team). They wanted to hurt me as much as possible.
Anyway, I can’t help wondering: Do they really expect me to NOT share this hideous paper with others? Are they 100% sure this wouldn’t offend anybody in the firm? In that paper, they basically recommend to stop doing any significant work once I’ve left (even if I represent only about 14% of the team’s current workforce). Would people in other teams (many of whom still work very hard) really want them to get away with this?
Ironically, I am the one who always tells others not to put anything sensitive in writing!
I guess if I shared that paper they would amp um their abuse. Anyway, I’m afraid they would do the same if I didn’t because then I would have written “doormat” all over my forehead. I think if I kept quiet about this the outcome would be even worse. Unfortunately, the outcome will be bad for me either way… I’m so angry!!!
EllyB,
Jeez, it sounds like you need some sort of conflict mediation with this toxic work team. Can someone in HR run interference for you? You have to work with these people for another six months for goodness sakes! Good luck with it!
Learner: Unfortunately it’s a rather small company with a CEO who seems to be a textbook narcissist. HR is very close to him. This is why I’ve avoided both parties like hell.
It’s a nightmare. I hate this contract! Unfortunately, they have enforced those contracts with anyone who has quit so far, so this seems to be hopeless as well. I’m really scared that my physical/emotional health might get damaged further during those six months.
In a popular book on Workplace Bullying (“Bully at Work”) I found the following advice “Try not to leave with your experience shrouded in shame and secrecy. Leave kicking and screaming about the injustice done to you.”. I know it seems counterintuitive, but the idea behind this strategy is that, while it probably won’t save your career, at least it helps you to preserve your sanity.
stop letting your friends invalidate your emotions and your feelings. Don’t doubt your decisions, especially if you are happier without those people who hurt you and bust your boundaries. I have been NC with my mother for 8 months due to her active aggressive behaviour (beatings, telling me she is going to kill me, lying to other family member etc.)…try explaining to people, let alone any future partner why you don’t speak to your mother (which is regarded as extreme bad luck/insulting within the african culture). I am still learning how to deal with people’s reactions everyday and it sometimes scares me to be open about it. One thing I do know, is that if someone invalidates my emotions and diregards the pain I have been through because of people they don’t know i.e. mother, ex-bf…I do get annoyed, flush them or keep that emotional distance and seek more supportive companions. Life is too short to live it for other people honey.
Hi Pax,
I am deeply sorry that you don’t speak to your Mother, but certainly understand why you have made the decision not to. I’m with you as far as not discussing it! When anyone does look down on me for going NC with my sister I just try and remember that they are judging me based on their own experiences, fears and personal paradigms. Perhaps their sister is their best friend and they couldn’t imagine showing that kind of ‘cruelty’ to her. I think it’s unfortunate that many people can’t truly empathize, but knowing this helps me understand and stops me from absorbing any negative energy :).
Elly and Amanda,
I totally, totally hear you guys. I had to cut off a narcissistic best friend of 15 years, and I got flack for THAT. I can’t imagine the pain of having a parent like that, and also of dealing with the misguided “sympathizers” who want you to stay in contact with those messes.
If you haven’t already seen it, there’s a great blog on the topic of dealing with (read: cutting off) narcissists from your life, specifically parents. It’s called “Narcissists Suck.” URL is http://www.narcissistssuckblogspot.com,I believe. Sounds like you guys are pretty savvy with this subject already, but if you need further support in this, I would check it out. It helped me a lot. Best wishes!
Amanada,
I ceased having contact with my mother some years ago and found people force-feeding me the family shtick—“But it’s your mother!” Luckily, I also found many women in my shoes, who just shrugged and said, “Never could stand my mother.” You
can guess which women I hang with.
When I was with the MM, my closest girlfriend of 20 years kept invalidating me–I have never seen you so happy, he wants to leave his wife and rush into your arms, what’s wrong with that, blah blah blah. I stopped talking to her for over a year. My misery and anguish, the absolute hell he put me thru, didn’t
make any impression on her. Now that the affair is finally dead, she has come back & admitted that he would have destroyed my life and walked away without a care in the world.
Amanda, let these people go. If you tell them you need their support, not their opinions or their criticism, and they can’t oblige, they are worth nothing to you.
I sympathise Amanda. I finally managed to keep NC with the ex AC/Narc. I realised I was demoted to just a doormat booty call when it suited him. He lied, cheated, disappeared. blew hot & cold, so I told him why I didn’t want to keep contact. He carried on texting as if nothing had happened- even saying he loved me. BS! I’ve had some texts recently saying he’s been seriously ill, which I’ve ignored. A mutual friend asked me how he’s doing and when I said I had no idea she was horrified. Word has spread that I haven’t been to see him and now it seems that I’m the bad guy with everyone. I can’t and don’t want to tell anyone how he treated me- I still feel ashamed that I put up with it for over 2 years. He’s Mr Charming to everyone else and of course they feel sorry for him. But he has no shortage of women to look after him, so why do I feel guilty? I’ve never ignored any friend in need, but he was a real louse to me in the end. What now?
Shattered. You feel guilty because you are a good person. There are times I still feel guilty about NC. It’s been 6 months for me and I finally feel peace. My ex tried every trick in the book in the past to get me to break including saying he had cancer and played the depression card. Every time you break you go back to their web. My situation similar in that mine was a louse in the end and revealed himself clearly especially post breakup when he did every hovering maneuver know to mankind. Yes he has plenty to look after him. These types always do but of course they want the one who is ignoring them the most. Feeling sorry is the kiss of death. You are doing the right thing for your emotional health. Stay the course.
I was the queen of this in my past relationships. I remember one time I called an ex (just about as vile of a man you can date and yet he always still had options) and he was “getting high with friends.” I expressed my dissatisfaction with this as I anxiously listened to the voices of females in the background. He became angry and said he’d break up with me if I called again. I can’t remember who hug up. I called again and he screamed at me, “If I get pulled over because I’m on my phone driving and go to jail it’s your fault!” Then he broke up wih me. If he had gotten pulled over by police and arrested that night it would have been because he was driving under the influence and it would have had nothing to do with me. I see that now.
In no time he was out at bars chasing women. I remember running into him at a bar and him flirting with a womam right in front of me while treating me like a stranger. I went and sobbed in my car and saw them leaving together after I finally got myself together and pulled out of the parking lot. What that woman didn’t know and what he didn’t say is how he threatened to punch me when we argued, or how he left my arms black and blue or how he’d hole up for days in his apartment drinking, smoking weed, looking at porn and playing World of Warcraft.
After the night this ex had drunkenly broken up with me, I initiated no contact without really knowing what exactly that was. We had been together off and on for about two and a half years and something finally clicked with me that this thing between he and I was over. I also sought therapy and began the healing. I sort of half heartedly dated off and on listening to misguided advice from a friend: “Maybe you just need another man to get you over this man.” I tried but nothing stuck. Either I wasn’t interested enough or they weren’t and I was still highly emotionally unavailable without having a clue as to what was going on with me in that department. I got some toxic friends, decent friends and continued codependent relationships with a few friends and my family, again without realizing what was going on.
Five years later, I met THE ex. The epiphany relationship that near took everything out of me. There’s really not too much to say about him other than he is an alcoholic who could probably (and probably aims to) charm the pants off of anything. It took me two and a half months to see that this tryst was going nowhere and fast and I broke it off. I’ve been single for a bit over a year since and am making a serious career move and plan to be single until I am happy and satisfied with the relationship with myself. And my dog 🙂
“how he threatened to punch me when we argued, or how he left my arms black and blue or how he’d hole up for days in his apartment drinking, smoking weed, looking at porn and playing World of Warcraft.”
Wow. Bet you miss this prince among men, eh Peanut? Geez, I just have to say it (so bear with me):
REALLY????????????????
Met a guy – seemed lovely. Very polite, intelligent, quite shy. After two dates (second one got intimate) he was texting me every day asking me to meet up with him. Date planned for Saturday night and then he cancelled suddenly with apologies but no explanation. He then started texting me again so I asked him to call me. Spoke on the phone and organised another date for the next Saturday only for him to text me in the afternoon saying he was ill. Then he sent me two really apologetic texts saying he was keen to meet up. Then he called me and again asked me to meet up on Saturday. Seemed very genuine in his apologies.
Am tempted as I really like him and felt good chemistry between us but am scared he will let me down a third time. Am I best just to get out while I can? He must like me or why would he keep texting/calling? Very confused!
Becky: Either he is a very unreliable guy… or he is deliberately testing your boundaries. I would be very careful.
Theoretically, giving him another chance might not harm, but I’m a little bit worried because you sound very invested in this guy although you barely know him. “Chemistry” isn’t always good… it can actually be a sign that something toxic is going on, maybe something that reminds us of bad things from our childhood (I think NML has done several posts on the dangers of “chemistry”).
Plus, getting intimate on date number 2 is often a bad idea as many women in here can attest to. It adds to our premature “investment”.
And all that texting and calling isn’t necessarily a good sign either. It might be him “blowing hot and cold” as well.
If you see him again, chances are that you might put up with more bad behavior from his side due to your emotional “investment” in him. Be aware of this risk!
Becky,
I’m sometimes shocked that so many guys these days don’t even have the energy to go get laid a second time. Are they so lazy or what? I don’t get all these half hearted texts, made and broken dates (again conducted via text).
This guy seems like a looser with no follow through. And these fools pass themselves off as men?
Lol, that´s so true, Pinkpanther! You´d think they´d at least try to get laid while they can.
Becky,
Get out now while you still can. This behavior is a major red flag!!!
He must like me or why would he keep texting/calling? Very confused!
Nope. He is seeing if he can keep you as an option. If he really liked you there would be no confusion about it!
FLUSH!!!
Becky. I would move on. He has been unreliable. If he is as interested as you, why play games? He may have been sick the second time, but what about the first time and him not making any explanation? I wouldn’t trust him to follow through on anything important if he cannot keep a simple date right at the very beginning. Texting frequently when he could pick up the phone is classic EU behavior. I don’t think he’s worth your time.
I am no NC with my ex for 3 months. He has cheated on me for the past 3 years with his ex. I should have left him the first time I found out. I always fell for our talking out what happened and why he did it, but I was doing all the talking I realized and he was actually silent on the matter why he needed to see her every 4 to six weeks the same thing. Thinking back he always got mad when I found out never upset that he lied and cheated on me betrayed me that hurt me so much. I always left him when I found out back and forth for 3 years our relationship was of 6 years. Now away from him I see how all that talking was a waste of time. He has been calling and texting I blocked his number. His ex emailed to let me know he lives with her now why would she do that?..He emailed just the other day to tell him his update of his life how he now has a job and he misses me a lot. Strange he did not mention his ex he lives with. In the e-mail he mentions how he did not have a job and the break up of our relationship put him down and out. He had no choice to move in with his ex and they are just room mates just simply helping each other with money. lol okay..just to mention the day I left him he called me to tell me he loved me adored me and when I hung up from that call he called her it was midnight….I was lucky that I found out for the last time I was willing to help him with rent money that following week. I feel stupid that for 3 years I talked the talk thought this time every time this time he understood the hurt he caused me and he would never do it again. Foolish me. FlUSH.
The exMM who moved in with the Other Other WOman (OOW) once his wife wanted no more to do with him also claimed financial hardship. (I was an exOW when this happened, but was still a Chief Sympathizer). How else could he and his wife afford to separate? I asked him if things were back on with the OOW, and he never answered the question. (I was guilty of letting him get away with dodgy behavior by accepting his silence to pointed questions. NML has a great article on dripfeeding the truth). The best was when he explained to me that he kept all of his clothes in the OOW’s bedroom because there was no room anywhere else in the house… a 4+ bedroom mansion in “The Hills” (ie, the most exclusive part of town). Come on, now! What does he gain by lying to me? The fact that I even know this much detail about his new life shows how hard its been to resign from my role as Chief Sympathizer. Regardless, once you enable someone to dripfeed and tell you what he thinks he wants to hear, its a hard habit for both to break, even when nothing is left at stake.
Lilly and all,
You, Me, We all have to let go completely and unequivocally. The pain of going back to ambiguity only worsens. Feel the pain. And I tell you ask yourself the worst case scenario reply once you try and communicate for an explanation or negotiation and you will not want to even try and make that call or send that message. Take it from my experience and everyone here, the pain is worse the next go around. I thought I was ready and that 2 plus months would have given her some needed space as its what she asked for. She had gone through a job loss, death of a mother and undying EX that after a year started to make a push for real reconciliation. Although I felt in a relationship we progress and work through that together if what she needed was space to avoid objectivity I have to respect that. So I agreed. My gut said she was going back to her EX but I let it go. Because I trusted in what I had built and of course all her Future Faking. And of course her last messages were that its not about anyone and I was a big part of her life and she loved me yada, yada, yada.
So why not after 2plus months at least check up on her? Even if she said I need to be alone I felt I might be prepared for that. But what has me returning to the hurt is that it was about her EX and seeing her so happy with him after all the ugliness she talked about him and what he did to her. Then countless messages she sent me about how she was happy, felt safe, protected and couldn’t wait for my cancer to be gone so we could be normal. Yeah. She’s a piece of work, how does that not hit a nerve that its not me? That I’m not lovable or capable of providing, caring, making someone happy?
Used, humiliated, conned, taken advantage of. In my right mind I would not have ever been so giving and exposed my guard my finances. Red flags yes I’m certain they were all there but a master con artist know how to make them feel green. There should be some law that protects us from cons like these.
They are masters of the game! People are just pawns in their little chess game. They only truly care for themselves. When my ex came crying once again for at least “friendship” I actually said that to him. His only response was “you really think that?” They don’t have an ounce of introspection. They are not interested in being better people. They just want control and yes they move right on with a new pawn. There will always be others that will fall for their BS.
This article hit the nail on the head. Dodgy dealings are not just with men you are in a ‘relationship’/’delusion’ with but can extend to friends and family. Last weekend I went out with a friend from uni I have known for about 5 years but we met up every few months. I was staying over at her house and that night we decided to go out to a club with her sister, who is of similar age. So we had a few glasses of wine each before heading out. My friend got quite drunk and on the way into the club she says “im so drunk, I feel like I’m going to bottle you”…this came from nowhere and straight after, she laughs and says she was joking. Ok, fine, I joked around because yes, it was a bit stupid. We leave the club after two hours and proceed to another place to continue having fun, on the way there she says she needs to use the bathroom and then proceed to squat on the pavement of a BUSY street and relieve herself. As shocked as I was, I stood in front of her to try cover her dignity while asking her repeatedly “what are you doing?!” then she gets up and has wet her jeans down her whole leg. She started complaining that her jeans were wet and I offered to give her my pair of jeans as I was wearing a long dress/top over my jeans so could easily get away with it looking like a mini-dress. She then proceeded to tell me she will not wear my jeans because I stink and my jeans smell, literally. I thought she was just drunk but she stopped to look me in the eye and clarify. Wow. At this point, I felt myself regressing to that little girl that got bullied and physically abused by her own mother and mymother critisizing everything about me, from the shape of my legs to how I would brush my teeth. I was in a stupor of depression and low self-esteem for the rest of the night and literally did not say a word to “my friend”. The next morning, I got up early and left her house without even saying bye. Only later on that morning, she tries to call and text me with numerous apologies. I mean, I can understand when people get drunk they do stupid things, I’ve been there. But one thing I’ve learnt after 3 months of reading and implementing BR data is I will never ever let anyone bust my boudnaries and walk away with my dignity and self-esteem. She is still apologising and begging me to come over on the weekend so she can make it up to me but I am wary. 3 months ago I broke up from a “chopper assclown” who used to tell me I’m a slut, I’m disgusting and diseased (because I was not a virgin and had once in the past caught a bacterial infection from my then-boyfriend). So see…I’ve had and ACCEPTED abuse left right and centre…so any form I receive now whether it’s a word or a sentence, whether it’s the first time or the tenth time, I will repel it and emotionally flush the person out of my life. I feel harsh for being like this sometimes as people (like my friend) make mistakes they could potentially learn from and change, but I, as yet, don’t want to even pick up the phone to discuss anything with her and I’m asking you all….why should I?
Pax,
Not only is she classless, but also abusive. Time to flush!
Pax,
I hate to be flippant about this, and in the past (read: younger) I would have written a whole long comment to you to explain my thoughts. But I don’t have the time nor inclination anymore. Just trust me on this: This “friend” showed you her ass. I’ve been totally pissed out of my mind and never once had even a thought of being that disrespectful to a friend. Stupid, yes. Disrespectful, hateful, and openly jealous and resentful? Ah….no.
You sound like you may be a bit younger (forgive me if you’re not, but it’s just that shit like this usually goes down when you’re in your twenties) so trust a possibly older, wiser (35-year old) woman here. There is nothing good for you with this girl. Move along.
Wow. I have growing respect for your replies Rev. She has shown her ass. Right. I’ve not heard from her for a couple of days and neither do I want to. I’m a big softy but only recently am I learning to put me nd my emotions first. Self-esteem rebuilding, dignity intact. Flushing wouldn’t do her justice, I will incinerate.
Pax,
she is begging for YOU to come over so that she can make things right? She is another chopper and that`s a mindf**k.You are so right to flush her!You are not harsh, you are awsome.
Lol, sushi I had to read that three times before I finally got it. Yes, she is asking ME to come over…asking ME to make the effort once again. Damn. Sometimes you need to use someone else’s goggles to see the sh*t in your life. Thank you. Another thank you for calling me awesome, indeed we all are 🙂 xxx
NancyW
Yeah, the ” I am listening thing.” It is like my ex rolling his eyes and saying “I am listening” said in a exasperated impatient voice (hidden meaning..there you go again).
My ex was really good at “doing things” in the house I once asked a therapist..the only one who really “got him” and us, why I was so angry when he was a good father and did things around the house. He told me that I took the “doing things” in exchange for any real emotional engagement. Like I knew I couldn’t get the latter so I took the former. I don’t think I even was conscious of it. Now that is really screwed up~!
My problem as always been that the mind controlling has been sometimes quite subtle. I have always bent over backwards to give him the benefit of the doubt. I always wanted to believe that his stated good intentions were enough. He was always saying “I am trying to change.” He still says that. That screwed up my head for years. I don’t pay attention to that anymore and don’t engage on that level with him. But my therapist told me recently that he would say that and would actually believe he IS changing. So I have to be careful not to get caught up in it at all…..
Sometimes I feel like I was brain-washed in the relationship and it is hard, some days, to live with that.
Espresso we were brainwashed. No doubt. Not because we are stupid but because they are really good at the game. I still feel angry about it at times but knowing I walked away from the madness and finally saw him for who he really was makes me strong! It was never our fault for looking for the good in people when there was no good. We just need to feel happy about the fact that we can be at peace and devote ourselves to people who truly value us.
Nancy
I to am very much like Amanda her story same as mine , i was a cheif sympathzier after my affair with ex mm fizzled out . I would get crappy crumbs and a visit in his lunch hr now and then . When he felt i was moving on hed stepp it up a bit . Then he lined a richer ow up to give him the lifestyle he wanted and off ge went . I was no longer needed . In the first few months on here i was a mess i had tinks kick me up arse and tho it hurt i got a grip . I couldnt fool myself anymore with my fantasy . I went off did other things . My dad had a stroke , my dog died and then my friend but i got stronger through the love of good friends and not reaching out to arsehole . I got angry but ive got through when i never thought i would . Now i have down days but not as bad and even tho im totally on my own im happy . I have watched me stand up for myself and sent ac packing and im not taking shit or people pleasing any more . As for ex mm i still get the odd text and i think its sinking in im not that girl who sat in his van and opened her heart to him and said there was no one eles . That girl died long ago . I never answer the texts . I learnt i can live and be happy with out him . And it feels good not to be at yhe mercy of some one lije him or a bullying husband . I still have a long way to go but im finally growing up emmotionally .big hugs to all x
Big hugs to you. I guess we’ve traveled down the same road. The last time the exMM tried to get my sympathy, he was waxing on about how guilty and ashamed he felt for losing the woman he loved most in life (his soon-to-be-ex-wife), and didn’t say anything about how it felt to be living off the fat of his independently wealthy OOW, other than saying he felt “vaguely guilty”. I took a step back, realizing that he was insatiable… he was so lost, he was turning to a former OW (me) for sympathy when he was in the middle of playing the affections of two unrelated women. Its sick. If he claims to be miserable, I can now see clearly why. This conversation happened about two months ago, and I am glad to be no longer tuned into that frequency.
Hi Tired, my friend. You’re doing well. Why risk sliding back? Can’t you block him from your phone or change your number? Take control, Hon. You don’t need to hear a peep out of him. I’m proud of you for not answering, but I do think you need to prevent him from contacting you. You should not feel the need to know that he tried to reach you unless that is what you’re secretly wanting. Keep strong, girl. Tink.
Well, it’s been 4 months since the Merry Christmas text and the exMM texted last week to see how I am and to keep in touch. He lives half way across the country, has no intention of speaking to me or coming back here (he does sometimes which just leaves me empty), I have no idea why he is contacting me at all and almost texted him back to as him why are you still contacting me? I really don’t understand his motives, there is no point, but decided to ignore him, it is hard, a part of me wants to know why. Thanks Nat, your texts are always timely and stop me from breaking NC!
Hang in there. What you just experienced is crazy-making. Don’t let curiosity get the best of you. If you are having big feelings about this, remove yourself a couple of steps. Acknowledge that it is hard to live your life by your own script when you got accustomed to someone else giving you a crazy-drama ridden script for so long. Its tempting to go back to his script. Acknowledge that, but remind yourself of how much more peaceful your life is now that you live it by your own script. And, stick to it.
Thanks Amanda, you are right! What I think really helps, is I write out answers to his texts,read them back and see how ridiculous they sound, they are not actual texts but are electronic notes that I write but never send, it sounds crazy, but I feel better and I am able to maintain NC!
Miss Natalie,
“Your job in life isn’t to raise adults from the ground up. If you don’t think that a person knows the fundamental difference between right and wrong and you feel that they lack an affinity with basic respect, it’s time to step.”
This hit me right in the face when I read it. I feel like I’ve got this down in my romantic life (or lack thereof at present. ahem.) But with friends, I seem to forget to put the emergency break on.
Since I had to go NC with the EUM last year, a friend of mine (who was also a mutual friend of the EUM) basically dumped me. Now she’s back in my life (well, barely: we had dinner last night after not seeing each other for months and months) and she’s in the middle of getting separated from her husband. She’s not saying it outwardly, but I know that she’s trying to blame her lack of communication with me on the fact that “it’s been a rough year” with her husband. I don’t doubt that, but I don’t think that’s the reason she dissed me. I think she was being selfish and I think that she liked having the (non-sexual) attention from the EUM. I think she basically “picked” him over me, even though I would’ve never have asked her to pick one or the other of us. She took it upon herself.
So now she’s back and slowly coming around me. I’m trying to be a friend to her, especially right now as she’s going through a really dark time with her marriage breaking up. Nevertheless, I’m seeing parts of her personality surface that I’ve tried to deny in the past. She can be very selfish. My dilemma, though, is that I don’t want to flush her because I know that she feels like she doesn’t have anyone in her life to help her right now. I want to help her, even just a little bit and from a “safe” point outside of the vortex, through this time. That’s what friends do. And I do love her.
I am struggling so much with this, guys. I do believe in forgiveness for other’s shortcomings, and letting the past be the past, and helping others in need. I’m not saying that we will ever be as close as we were before the happenings of this last year. But I also don’t want to leave a friend in the lurch. I think I’m just going to try and keep in touch with her maybe once a week, and go to dinner with her sporadically just to keep tabs on her and make sure she doesn’t do anything drastic. I have made peace with the fact that she’s not as good a friend as I thought she was. But I’m not ready to flush just yet because I feel like it would be cruel not to help someone you love when they are going through hell like she is.
I wonder if I’m deluding myself. Time will tell.
*emergency BRAKE.
…Freudian slip, perhaps? Oy.
Hey Rev,
You say that you don’t want to let a good friend down when she needs you, but you give examples of why she’s not such a good friend. Why not get to the real reasons why you are keeping her close. YOUR REASONS. It’s more than what you are telling yourself, don’t you think?
I’m with Tink here: the problem stated is never the problem, it’s just the conclusion we’ve come to after applying some (possibly sick) logic or reasoning (possibly rationalizing) to the real problem.
Tink and Teddie,
Thanks for your responses. I think I’m following you guys, but not sure. At any rate, yes she has proven that she’s not a good friend. It’s a hard pill to swallow, especially since I had little incident with her for five years before she effectively showed her ass this last year (guess I should listen to the advice I gave Pax, eh?). I think I’m still a little shocked and almost like, “Did this really happen, that she effectively dumped me on the PCH after I went through hell with, and finally went NC with, my EUM??” But she did. It did happen. And just because we never had a discussion about it (because she basically didn’t contact me much after that) doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
Listen, here’s the deal: I’m a hard bitch, true. But I’m not a cruel bitch. And I take my friendships VERY seriously. I consider them family. So it’s hard to effectively turn my back on someone who’s writhing around on the floor in pain, good friend or bad. I don’t know. I’m a softy. I’m trying to find a way to be there for her and help her get back on her feet without engaging on a deep level. Because I don’t trust her anymore.
I guess I kind of also feel guilty that my gut is telling me to forget her as a friend, but then I see her going through hell and I don’t want to abandon her when she’s in that state….
Hi Revolution,
I used to think and more than once a day say out loud ‘hey here’s the deal, I’m a tuff one, a hard one, I give it to you straight etc’ And why? Because that’s what I always got as feedback from others ànd because I would never let anybody help me get through pain or hurt or trauma and then that’s the image about yourself you stir in others. I myself think of myself as a very véry tender and soft person, very scared to get hurt, very afraid to get burned and lose face, afraid people would think I can’t manage. Only a few days ago an acquaintance said I always look like I’m on top of things. Most of the time I am, because I force myself to be, so again, I wouldn’t lose face. Fact of the matter is, I’ve always had a very strong sense of what’s right and what’s wrong and I’ve never had any trouble at all of stating that out loud. But here ‘s the real kicker, when it comes to me, and what people do or say to me, I’m quite lost. I always make it my responsibility when somebody says or does something wrong to me because “I’m supposed to be on top of things, right?”. Why I’m telling you this is, because, you’re supposed friend wasn’t there for you at all, but you are so used of having your own back that although you know you should feel bothered by it, you know she should have been there for you, but you are used to fixing your own shit so it’s only matter of principle that you’re angry she wasn’t there for you. Practically, not so much. (really guessing here, but maybe you really recognise yourself) Now that she needs you, you are running over, because she seemingly can’t cope. I don’t mean it as an eye for an eye thing, but if she decided not to have your back a while ago, why the hell should you have hers. The minute she’ll feel better, probably thank you once for your done effort and than get real quiet about it, as if it never happened, and before you know it, she’ll act as if she can judge you from up her throne all over again.
I would rather help a stranger in need than some “friend” who has repeatedly mistreated me in the past, because with the stranger, it is not unlikely that he/she is a decent person… Honestly, “friends” who haven’t acted like friends in the past (and who haven’t changed in a credible way either) are totally worthless.
Wow, VHS, my old friend. 🙂 That was a very insightful comment. You have your finger on the pulse, for sure. Damn, you’re good.
It’s true that I am used to having my own back, so when someone who is supposed to have it but then proves, disappointingly, that they don’t….well, it’s almost like “back on the road” and I put my pack on my back. But man, this one threw me for a loop. There was SO much time before this where she helped me out and was at my side. But this was a big one. And she just ditched me. I didn’t even do anything wrong, either. I can usually see my role in something like this, but I was very much the sacrificial lamb (something I don’t usually see myself as, as I always try to find SOME way to blame it on myself, lol).
I agree with you that, not out of “an eye for an eye” vengeance, but just my own sanity, that I will proceed with caution and help from afar and then resume our non-relationship (or at least a polite barely acquaintance)when she’s more stable. I really have no hate in my heart for her ,or for anyone, but that doesn’t mean that I want to keep in close company with someone who can prove so disloyal.
Thanks for the mirror you put up for me, VHS. Very, very helpful.
Revolution, indeed, old friend 🙂 do what you got to do, because ultimately, I know, it can feel bad not to help out someone in need. It’s not a BAD thing to want to help others feel better, even if it does make you a fall back girl of any kind. You have to live with yourself aswel and if it is a basic principle you want to live by, go ahead, because ignoring other peoples hurt, AC or not, may cause you to feel the AC yourself and that’s just not who we are or how we want to live our lives. Kind people help out when they can, so why not right? BUT. Do it with your boundaries in check. Don’t help out by giving her your version of sorrow for her to feel better. Just be there and let that be enough. If it IS enough, great. If it isn’t… you know what to do. Big hugs to you, and to all. X
VHS, babe. We are totally on the same page with this one!!! I thank you so much for your advice, and that’s exactly how I plan to proceed. Thanks for the support, love.
You might think that “helping out someone in need” might do no harm even if that person has proven to be very selfish, but be careful… you might end up putting so much energy into supporting that person that you neglect the worthier people in your life. I’ve watched former “friends” do this: They took care of some other “needy” friend 24/7, even if those “needs” seemed quite questionable and that other person certainly never reciprocated. My “friends” were always so “busy” taking care of that other person that they never had time for me, no matter how urgently I needed somebody myself. Of course, I might have been guilty of the same.
And btw, narcissists/psychopaths manipulate others with the “pity ploy” as well. If you buy into this, you might not be the only person getting hurt. Innocent bystanders might be affected too.
Hey Rev, thank you for your post. I’m in a similar boat with a returning former best girl friend who is going through a drama-rama break up. We had a falling out about two years ago over something, probably when I started enforcing boundaries. She popped up about two months ago and I’ve kept things at arms lenght. I invited her over next weekend thinking it would be nice. Nope. She’s slammed for the next two weeks and can’t do anything. I’ve made peace with the fact that unless I’m a virtual doormat at her beck and call, there’s not much left. She isn’t running a country, just a middle level manager at a po dunk community college. Keep your boundaries in place. She may be able to respect your boundaries or she may self flush. Whatever she does, isn’t about you.
Runner,
Yeah, I remember now that we were in the same boat with these friends. 🙂 And I do plan to proceed with my boundaries in place. I know you will too. Your friend sounds like my friend, who’s flitting about in life, busy busy. I’m actually totally fine that she’s too busy to see me much. After this last year of her dumping me, leaving me to go through hell on my own when the EUM and I “broke up”, I don’t much feel like being bosom buddies anymore. Though I’m not exactly sure I wanna hit the flush handle either.
It’s funny how, in your and my case, these friends come back when THEY are going through something. I was talking to my mom about it yesterday and she reminded me, “I just remember you crying so hard and asking me ‘What did I DO? WHY is she not helping me through this?’ You were blaming it all on yourself! I kept telling you that it wasn’t your fault, and you didn’t believe me.”
Ah, Runner. Sorry, I had to take a break. Too emotional. Anyway, we do what we can for them, but we have our guards up a bit, eh? Because I don’t want to become an AC just because I’ve been bitten by so many ACs, you feel me?
Finallygettingit69
Thanks. I can’t take credit for that as I’m certain I heard or read it somewhere. A bit similar to misery loves company syndrome. I’m really not certain how we protect ourselves from future faking con artist. I still say had my health been better maybe I wouldn’t have fallen for the con so quickly. But admittedly my un-availability while I recovered from treatments made me a target for her agenda. So yes broken is the start. Anyone have super glue?
Revolution,
Yes, really 🙂 It is a valid question though 😉 And to think, I kid you not, this is a man I SWORE I could not leave or live without. I felt as though I’d die without him though he was fatal to my health and psyche. Ha! And this is very superficial of me to say but I’m going to because it just goes to show how societal ideology about good looking people being the most desired is bullshit. He wasn’t even good or decent looking!!! He reminded me of Mr. Burns from the Simpson’s.
Today I finally flushed the EU jerk I was seeing. Two weeks ago we had lunch and I told him my concerns about our relationship…first mistake–I assumed we were in a relationship. I found out today in the most obvious and hurtful way I was simply an oncall shag for him. Can’t shag? Can’t be bothered knowing you, Kitty? Call me when you can (trust me the truth was so cruel and heartless that even I FINALLY got it).
I wanted to think I was special. Wanted to think I mattered. It made me happy but in my hurt I knew it was wishful thinking….
I am happy that I at least got to say my peace and then he had the one chance to make it right.
Right now I have dried my tears, deleted his number and while it hurts that it didnt work out, flushing him has given me a calm feeling….
ChiTownKitty
Many of us have trouble “setting boundaries” and “letting the jerks walk all over us” because we believe that we are lacking. We are drawn into situations where we take the victim roles because of the false belief that we are less than and there is something wrong with us. Until we address these false believes and claim them, we will continue to have difficulty setting the boundaries , or more accurately will manifest situations where people treat us poorly. Often, we are drawn into relationships precisely because the person you are drawn to will confirm your false belief about yourself. That is why we often see ourselves repeating the same mistakes with different people. We must go within and find out the truth within. We must practice and strive for healing in our spirits, body and mind. When we are truly healed with correct vision of ourselves, we will have no need to have discussions. And our discussion will become one of healing. Thanks for the article! Love, Aiko
Thank you Aiko, you are truth 🙂
Natalie,
You are on point, but this is my problem. I try to do the flushing, and then the sentimental memories start gratering away at my stone wall. These memories of our first kiss, yahdeyah, attack my flushing mechanism until the chain breaks and I have to call him and say something stupid like “I love you Baby!!” What is my problem?!? Is this normal behaviour or am I a moron?? Maybe this is just fear of abandonment, so I am willing to compensate for the bullshit lame excuses. Anyway, your post gives me new HOPE. So let’s see if I can stop gratering and start building back the flushing mechanism.
Deno, no this is absolutely normal do not worry!! What helped me was making a “Big List Of Marks Many Faults.” which ended up with 43 separate items on it. Then when you think of the moments like the first kiss you just replace them with a memory of when he treated you shitty, introduced to someone as “my mate,” disappeared for a few days/weeks, told you he “just wasn’t feeling it any more.” or whatever bullshit your particular ex pulled on you. You must have a few bad memories to pull on or you wouldn’t be here 🙂 Failing that I think of his nasty spotty back, or the huge varicose vein the back of his leg. Seriously, you will end up smacking yourself upside the head and asking “what was I thinking?” remember, it takes TIME. I am 7 months NC and I still think of him every day. However, he is no longer the first thing I think of when I wake up or the last thing I think of when I fall asleep. At one point I thought of him 24/7. This will pass, and you will have ZERO urge to call/text him. I promise you. I absolutely promise you this is the truth and you will get there. Give yourself time and remember contact will only lead to more pain.
YES!!! I just flushed a friend, not even a boyfriend, after being guilted for stating my boundaries and need for space. Been there done that, and DONE with it. Take your mind games and go grow up on someone else’s lawn. (thanks for the timely post, I was having some nagging guilt)
Dear Luisa:
Congratulations. You have met a commitmentphobe. There is nothing you did wrong. He has probably done this pattern with other women and will do it again. These people end up alone, and at the end of their life as recluses. Move on and seek “high ground”….Next time ask about a man;s romantic history and make your own conclusions.
Thanks, Maggie. I unfortunately did ask about his romantic past, and no red flags came up. But, I guess also that he mightn’t have been totally forthcoming or perceived his behavior how it actually happened. In fact, his comments sounded like he had processed his past relationships, was over them, grew from them…go figure! High ground is looking better all the time. Stifling desire to tell him all about himself!
Natlie, I love your art work lately. It is perfect, particularly this one. I can see a wonderful T-Shirt collection. The colors would work wonderfully under a blazer, with a pencil skirt and flats or some kick ass heels. Doncha think? Just about the time you slip off the blazer and look in the mirror…the T-shirt would be there to remind you…don’t take it off.
I’m two years out (that’s law school talk for when you passed the bar so I’m applying it to two years out of BR school) and when I got the dumb, half-assed, crumb “Happy Birthday” text from the exMM, I brushed it off. When I got home, I felt this tug to explain for the trillionth time why I’m not going to own back up to be an OW. You are so right: “…you having a chat about it is only going to give the impression that you’re not really that serious and are open to having them crossed again”. That is the mistake I kept making in the past. I thought if I could just explain how miserable I was as a mistress, he’d get it and put me out of my misery. Of course, my head was fogged. How he’d put me out of my misery was never really clear. There is no discussing with a cheater that they are a cheater. This is so very clear Natalie. I want to discuss this again so I can go back to my fantasy dream and delude myself. This made me laugh and cry. I can envision how I would explain to an assailant that they shouldn’t be assualting people. Got to go back and find that wonderful post about broken windows.
BTW, in the legal profession in California, we have what’s called “Continuing Legal Education” and we have to do so many hours a year which I recluctantly do. I love my “Continuing BR Education”. You keep me centered. Stop discussing and get to flushing. That T-shirt would work in so many situations. Arrgh, though. This guy just still bothers me.
I just saw Great Gatsby and re-read the book. Great film and great novel. Another OW dead. I didn’t notice this theme when I was 20-something in my lit classes. Back then, I thought Anna K. and Gatsby’s mistress were heronines. Maybe I needed a new lit prof.
“I can envision how I would explain to an assailant that they shouldn’t be assualting people” <——-co-signed.
Just don’t think about him, Runner. You’re doing great with NCing him so you don’t want to talk yourself into explaining “one more time”. Please. Stay strong, Tink.
Runner,
I so totally get this line: “There is no discussing with a cheater that they are a cheater.”
I still can’t believe “your” exMM sent you a happy bday text 2 years out. In a conversation I had with the exMM at a conference a couple days ago (I was forced to sit with him, long story) he let it slip that he was still seeing the OOW “for coffee” and that sometimes he went for walks with both the OOW AND his wife (they are friends). There was such a temptation to discuss his disgusting behaviour, and how I no longer wanted to be a part of it, but I suppressed it and just said something vague like “we all have patterns of behaviour that define us”. He looked at me cluelessly and seemed to have no idea how appalling his cheating behaviour really is. I agree, I LOVE our CBRE and hope to complete several hours per week!
btw I saw somewhere else that you found a great apartment for your daughter – amazing! Keep on being awesome, runner the no-longer-OW!
I’m the “other woman, misstress.”for one year now. I am also a married woman, for 17 years, with two kids. I justified this affair by saying, “I was dead inside, I had no hope of feeling a mans love again.” “My husband is an alcoholic and his misstress is Budweina.”
I hadn’t had sex for 5 years w my husband, my soul was dead. Another justification! The man I began the affair with, well, we have been friends for 17 years also.
I was so justified, I had sex with MM while his wife was pregnant, gave birth…and moved to a new home.
I have done more shady shady shit…with this man than I could ever imagine.
Well, guess what? Since the start of affair, I’ve probably paid over 7,000$ in private therapy, lost twenty pounds from future faking and gut checks.
I would like to say “Thank You.” To Nathalie and the rest of the women and men for opening the can of “WTF Sister” Thank You Runner for your strength. You have made a difference.
FLUSH… I’m Flushing …
Who is this person in the mirror…yes, that about sums it up. I’ve done similar shady shit with the exMM which left me wondering who is this person in the mirror. It wasn’t one of my best couple of years. It’s been a ton better since I flushed him. You can stop the shady shit and you don’t need to explain why. He’ll know why. He must be very busy with his new baby and new home. If I could flush for you, I’d double flush and then break out the scrubbing bubbles.
The sooner you go through the pain, the sooner you can get on with your life. FLUSH.
Apologies everyone, but I need to vent. The exAC/MM has just sent me a journal with our published manuscript and a sticky note telling me what page to look up. This is after three months NC! But there is NOTHING on this earth that will cause me to enter into any conversation or contact with him ever again. I could say a simple thank you, but I’m not going to. I just asked myself what the worst case scenario would be if I entered into any conversation with him again (got this from Frees post above)and I know if I have anything more to do with him it would literally be the finish of me. So I’m just going to go with the pain until it passes. It’s difficult because I have other things going on right now and it would be so easy to fall down again, but I’m not going there. He is not a source of comfort or support. He is a pig; a cruel, evil pig (sorry, I’m now furious that he could just send me that as if nothing else has gone on!). I’m not going to expose myself to more of the same. HE IS FLUSHED.
Lilly, you are right, he is a cruel evil pig (apologies to pigs) Contact with him will bring you nothing but another whole round of pain. You are DONE with him. The mere fact that he just sent you the manuscript in that cavalier fashion tells you all you already know anyway. If you have to think of him, just think of how bemused he will be when you don’t contact him. EVER AGAIN. He is the shit on your shoe honey. Don’t ever forget it.
Tabitha,
He is an evil pig, but I must apologise to all the non-human pigs out there! I laughed at the image of him being the shit on my shoe and I will never, ever forget it, thank you,xx.
Lilly,
Vent all you want. It’s always upsetting to be reminded that the vagrants we had the misfortune of having in our lives are still scuttling around this world. Is this the last that you can expect to hear from him, do you think? Are you through with the project that you worked on together? I certainly hope so. You are so right to not engage, though I know how it knocks you a bit off your axis when you hear from him. But it sounds like your head is in the right place, love. Eyes straight ahead now, and don’t look back. 😉
Rev,
I so regret the day I ever laid eyes on that man, but I can’t change what has happened. The only thing to do now is to keep looking straight ahead. All our work together is now done and he will have no reason to ever contact me again. I’m still a bit tearful, but this will pass, thank you, xx.
Oh Lilly, all I can say is REALLY??? The evil piggish exMM/AC of the century just doesn’t know where to get off, does he? I am soo glad that YOU know where he needs to go – down the toilet! I agree with the others, STAY NC and hopefully you don’t have any reason to contact the disrespectful, selfish, manipulative, oblivious, empathy-less, nowhere-near-as-intelligent-as-a-pig CREEP ever again. No discussion needed. Ever. Again.
Stay strong little sis xo
Learner, my dear NC sis,
I’ve seen how you have grown and got through all the pain and I’m so happy for you. I’m so embarrassed to say that I’m not over it all yet, it still hurts badly and I’ve let it mess up other things in my life. But I have moved on. I could sit here and torture myself with what this means just like I used to, but I’m not doing that anymore. I don’t care what he’s thinking or why he sent it and I’m not going to try to guess or find out. All I know is that he is dangerous, an emotional abuser of the worst kind and I’m exhausted. I will remain NC and one day this nightmare will be over, thank you as always, xx.
Lilly, I am SO proud of you, well done! I hope you will never come back to him, trust me I responded to AC number 2 one month ago and it did not work out, I thought he changed, but he is still the same AC! But still missing him, I think I have to check my head, honestly, it NOT “working” properly:(
GOOD for you Lilly for not answering, it is NOT WORTH IT!!!
Little Star,
I agree, once an AC always an AC. My head isn’t working properly either because he can still make me cry! But,I will get there and so will you. In the meantime NC remains intact, thanks LS, xx.
This was me 100%. It took me forever for my very messed up mother’s wise words to sink in….
“I can SHOW you better than I can TELL you.”
Thanks Nat 🙂
Hi Pinkpanther, I love the name.
I have been reading your story and comments along the way here at BR but never commented. I am sorry for your loss. A loss is a loss when we have invested our bonurabilaty, time, energy and commitment to someone and then abroubtly leave our lives. We are left suddenly alone trying to process the emptiness and feeling of being rejected and alone.
A breakup in any form is not fun, I think we all say we want that face to face break up and I agree that helps us maybe say what we are feeling but the more I think of it break ups are rarely mutual therefore one of us winds up bargaining to an empty court room. Once they want out, they just want out. You got the phone call, I got the lazy text that was also a tad ambiguous and not clear. And there lied my mistake in that I should have not broken my personal boundary of mutual progression through it all. I bent my boundary to accommodate what she was trying to do.
As I’ve repeated on my previous replies. Her end game was ” I need some space to sort out a few things, I taking a huge risk in loosing you, I love you more than I have shown, I’ll always love you”
With the passing of her mother, loss of job, meddling EX withholding alimony… I’m starting to doubt that now., her sudden change in communicating I felt it was the right thing to do by her. So I accommodated. Mistake, I should have not been so pathetic and ended it cause my progression boundary of going through the good and bad together was broken. Actually it was our early mantra, being I was sick. At that point I had a gut feeling this was more than she was letting on but I was also scared therefore I took a chance. She quickly disappeared. Without a trace. That’s when I really felt this was about her ex but still let it go as maybe she needs to really clear the air with him (notice me now starting to make excuses for her behavior?) I was filling in the blanks and it was killing me. So NC it was not that I had an option to contact her even if I wanted. 73 days later I had not heard from her and convinced myself it wasn’t really an end all breakup so lets test the waters. MISTAKE as you already know from the previous posts.
So sorry. Sidetracked there a bit. The more I repeat it the more I can see the shady behavior. Well my point being that you are correct. I think if you know it’s over make sure you get it all out of your chest. Don’t come back for seconds because you will be opening up the hurt all over again. So for anyone contemplating breaking NC I say again be certain that you can take the rejection cause if in my case they wanted to be with you. They would be.
VICTIMIZED, interesting. Some of you say we are not victims and some if you say we are not. That it is our CHOICE to be in our situation. Victimization is not always a choice. Maybe a different word is in order to describe those who knowingly stay in dubious or harmful relationships? Do I feel Conned out of years of my life, love, finances, time and energy? Yes. An experienced con knows how to hide all the red flags and chooses their mark. Future Fakers can say and do all the right things and with the con show mutual care, love and respect as I felt mine did. Until a year later when I was healed and ready to take the relationship to the next level that she stated and we agreed we would do as soon as possible. We looked at houses. She would often send pictures of a wedding dress, always always, proclaimed love and happiness, safety and secure. Good Hallmarks. Then suddenly she needs a break!? Disappears without a trace and two months later has a new Facebook with a picture of her ex along with others proclaiming how they are both older and wiser now? Did I choose to be manipulated this way? What exactly did I do to invite this, other than to accept her wanting to be in a relationship with me? Did I say it’s OK to hurt me? If I didn’t feel hurt, conned or maybe lightly victimized I don’t think I would be here seeking answers and tools to empower myself and build my self esteem. I don’t have the answers to whether we are victims or not but I certainly know in my heart of hearts that I did right by this woman to the bitter end and what she did is an experience I couldn’t even dream of.
Can understand this, had very similar experiences, after many years down the road I can really say THANK GOD she got him and NOT me.
Sorry for your loss and way you were duped it’s NOT fair, it’s NOT right and well guess who she won’t have to go to next time right?
Lucky guy he is to have her, Maybe he’s just as clueless as you are, she cannot be trusted really.
Your actually not duped at all but set free from someone that has no idea what the hell they really want is the truth of it.
She can just as easily change her mind again.
I love this Blog: Smart, wise and helpful. Thanks from Switzerland!
Lilly,
Never in a million years did I ever think I could offer anyone any advice on here at BR as I am still trying to make sense of the madness and the deeper hurt by trying to reconnect. In addition there are many more experienced and seasoned contributors to these post. So in my venting I’m glad. Hell jumping for joy that I could help you get through a weak moment. I feel like I’m paying Foward the help NML and others here have shared with me in my recovery.
Again it is a powerful technic that stopped me from continuing to try and get her to engage as I was sending unanswered text and and email. Feel the pain of the worst case response from contacting him and you won’t want to feel it again.
My situation is only a few days old but somehow today I actually feel a bit stronger. Although the truth about her is ugly and hurts and I still think of her. She’s a bad person and I remind myself of how ugly of a person she is. I’m starting to feel sad for her kind of like a drug addict who has so much potential in life but so broken they can’t see past their addiction.
Don’t contact him. On the note write down in his voice. PS if you call me I’m going to remind you what an AC I am because in going to do this and this and this to you… Again! Then light a match and burn it. Then tell us all about it.
Proud of your string self,
Free
Free,
Reading your posts helped me a lot so thank you. I won’t be giving him another chance to kick me in the head. I’m sending you lots of good thoughts and wishes to help you get through this. The day will come when it won’t hurt you anymore. Take care, xx.
I need to be more considerate and grammar and spell check. But I write this while, sitting in non moving traffic jams in NYC from my smartphone and if you would see the thumb on these hands you’d forgive me. Great day all.
Good for you, Lilly. He is “dead to you”. If he really were, would you be saying “Thank You?”. No. IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE. Remember how he hurt you. There is no forgiveness and no communication.
Luv ya, Tink.
Tink,
There will definitely be no “thank you”. Bad manners in this case are justified! Sending the journal was a ploy. He probably wants to come and finish me off! Luv ya too Tink, thank you, xx
Nat, I thank God for your blog. Seriously, I have no idea where I would be if I hadn’t found you. I’d be probably dead. I have read EVERY SINGLE post on this site and I am eternally grateful for everything you do. I have made so much progress in my life and as much as I know that the whole process isn’t over yet, I have finnaly found some hope, for the first time since… I can’t remember when. Thank you.
Me too Starbelly. If you can, download Natalie’s books. Talk about hope. Natalie’s books and her blog totally changed my life. The self-esteem e-course really helped too, although I still struggle.
Amanda,
Some people are bad for us and as we cannot control anyone else, we are left with only one healthy option: leave. There are people who are toxic to our health and the only thing we can do is get away from them. People aren’t perfect, no. And we don’t go around cutting contact with people because they are merley imperfect. I had to cut contact with my father and exes because they are dangerous. Though I’m leaving to pursue a different career path and moving on, it’d be great to keep in touch with my boss and if I ever were to meet someone and get married she’d be on the guest list. Is she perfect? No. Did we experience conflict? Yes. But is she a sane, reasonable, respectable and decent person? Absolutely. Not all people are.
I live with my grandparents who are emotionally unavailable and can make life very chaotic and distressing, but I haven’t cut contact with them as it is worth it to me to stick around and work it out in this case as they have genuinely been there for me in ways whereas my father was either wreaking havoc in my life or just absent.
My experience has been when someone cuts contact with another adult, it is for a good reason. Other people who tell you otherwise are scared to be held accountable for their behavior relationally.
Also the idea of victimization has came up and I find it so interesting and necessary to really look at this. When women or men take up with psychologically abusive partners, the effects of the abuse are horrid. Often times it’s an insidious process. The abuser can appear great and then it may take some time but things like over criticizing come into play, then comparison, then future faking, and attempted mind control. I experienced it all with my last relationship and have watched my grandmother deteriorate from the effects of my grandfather’s psychological abuse. He has suffered so little from it in comparison to her. Or it appears so. Partners who are emotionally abused turn the anger they are too afraid to express inward at themselves and develop a subconscious long, with standing rage aimed right in the mirror. And what I do know is people are not responsible for the actions and abuse of others. Also here’s a terrifying truth: one person can most definitely hold another psychologically captive. I’ve been a part of this and broken away. I hear it’s harder than quitting heroin to escape this sort of thing. I developed anorexia and near died. But I did take an act of courage (this is the first step) and got help from therapy and coming here. It is better to be concerned with not allowing ourselves to be victims in our adult lives and not victimizing others. And to begin the journey of discovering what exactly it is that we have the power to do with our lives that truly fills us and to truly discover how much control we have over our actions while learning that the word NO is not a dirty word, but a gift and a divine human right.
Starbelly,
I saw the name Starbelly and it made me smile so I went on to read your post. Congrats to all the work you’ve done and progress you have made. It’s inspirational to come across those with hope in this process as it’s a hard road sometimes 😉
Thank you, Peaunt, acutually I forgot to mention all those incredible people who post on this site and whose experiences inspire and teach me. Actually, thanks to this site, I’ve realised that there are some people who are capable of empathising with others, without being moralistic and judgmental…I hope I will meet even more of them in the days to come..;)
I have read and re-read your blog. All I can say is thank you, Nat.
Free. Please forget her. Your health is far more important. I guess, being an RN, I think it is of maximum importance. If you are feeling better, concentrate on staying that way. Ruminating over her does not help YOU.
Tink,
How are you? I agree and I’m certainly working very hard now to learn and move on from this disaster I allowed to progress. Yes I know I will hurt, but again the reality of what she is really about as in seeing it with your own eyes and then the lack or care and concern empathy. The spineless way she ended things it actually is helping me, she left me with hope, to then completely fall of the map. And when I find her she can’t even offer anything but another lie and half truth. I’m stronger in the hurt if that makes any kind of sense.
Free. I understand what you are saying and how you feel. You don’t know my story but, like everyone else on here, I,too, went through my personal hell. Now, I have a wonderful man in my life and I am truly happy. I wish the same for you. It’ll happen at the right time.
Makes perfect sense Free2bec, allow yourself to hurt.. your on the right track, If you tried not to then it would only drag on longer really.
I was strung along for years with people dangling the “possibility” of a relationship with me – Only to have them run off and get with someone they just met and as usual didn’t want me.. “But didn’t exactly want me to meet someone else either.”
I had to go through a few strange phases – but survived better off.
And I really would not want someone going that damn fast with me, had enough of that before.
Some people cannot NOT play games becasue they are actually very insecure, I think she sounds like someone that could never spend a day without someone.
Those are the ones that go around causing a lot of grief and using people for ego strokes.. and never bother look in the mirror.
I am happy to say I am only stronger for my losses, the lies laid on me and others BS.. I have only just begun to LIVE when it come’s to LOVE.
They did not even know me, and did not want to be known either.. “So nothing was actually lost.”
Ms.B.2.U
I really liked what you said about how talking/thinking can lead to disabling anguish (such a good way of expressing it!) and how you fearing the unknown comes up when you feel week or troubled or or having problems with self esteem (I hope I got that right). Right now as I extricate myself from a long relationship and focus on myself and my future I have periods where I feel very week and troubled….I feel strong a lot of the time and generally am making good, thoughtful and self protective decisions….but there are definitely times when I feel weak and troubled and lose focus. The thing is I WAS so strong in the relationship – made most of the big decisions, kept the business going, kept the kids going, kept my interests/friends/ projects going without the support and loving partnership I so wanted and missed. I WAS SO STRONG. I still find it hard to ACCEPT that.
I wish I could go totally NC with my ex but have taken new steps in the last few days to filter his emails more and to draw even more boundaries around our contact. It is difficult because he wants to be “loving” and show “caring,” in ways which are inappropriate at this point and which make me squirm.
I think that I do need to do a certain amount of processing of what happened to me….the “bargains” I made in the relationship, partly to explain to myself why I didn’t end it earlier. Partly this was because of my kids who are now all adult but a huge part was because I didn’t think my gut feelings of being hurt, rejected, unappreciated, unknown and undervalued were not in themselves enough to call it quits.
I still have a lot of challenges in accepting that and so this awareness of myself is painful. I think I chose my husband because I perceived him as emotionally “safe” but he was the last person who could be emotionally safe for me.
Peanut,
Excellent thoughts on Victimization.
Free
Thank you, Nat for “teaching” me how to live and respect me again!
Damn right,Natalie.
Great post!
My problem is: HOW do I pass the time between deciding NOT to discuss it and the time when the urge is over (usually several days)??? THAT’s the tough part! I usually end up becoming needy for advice from my friends, like I cling to them rather than the AC. Is this healthy? Concrete advice on HOW NOT TO GIVE IN to the urge to have a discussion!!!
Kitaly,
I don’t know your entire story, just from what you’ve writin first you have to determine what type of relationship your engaged in. Is it a mutual, caring, growing relationship? Where your sharing the same values? Are boundaries being crossed? There are a wealth of blogs here that discuss mutual relationships and core values along with boundary busting behavior. If your describing him as an AC rather than EU or EUMM I will assume there are boundary issues in your relationship. If they exists then why are you trying to leave the door open for further conversations. What do you need to reflect on? You should be flushing as 100’s of BR readers would advise. In a mutually committed relationship you progress. Not discussing the constant urges to go into your own space seems and will lead to ambiguous feelings. Yes we all need time to sit back pause, and make sure we are living our life and performe the self diagnostic and checks and balances. But if you find that you can’t discuss these with a partner to some degree then something is wrong and you shouldn’t string the situation along any further. Flush and go NC and remain NC until clear heads prevail.
I would say it depends on if your discussing things to WIN them over OR if your discussing things because your sure of where your at and wanna go regardless of what the hell they are doing or thinking.
Actually, I can talk to all of my ex’s just fine.. even the one’s I felt just ruined me and ripped my heart out at one time: ONLY becasue I don’t care to WIN them over.. I am more interested in just having fun now, discovering what I enjoy without their BS anyhow.
They can think what they want and keep playing whatever games they want.. “I am still looking forward to having better things, and now it’s them that can’t control a damn thing anymore.”
Without the need to WIN anything from them.. They really loose power that I don’t think ever existed in the first place.
Your weakness is just as much as an illusion as their power is.
True love, and loss of the EGO, trumps BS every time.
“you having a chat about it is only going to give the impression that you’re not really that serious and are open to having them crossed again.”
Wow this is such a true statement, I fell for the ‘chat’ so many times and actually believed it meant our relationship was getting a bit better as he was prepared to discuss. How deluded of me! Finally getting there with NC all of 2013 so far 🙂
Thanks for all of your insights Nat
Fi xx
Thank you! Just the right words, at the right time for me.
Oh wow, this post is spot on:) Am happy I came across this just at the right time. I just ended things after 4 years with my assclown, after awhole lot of pain, future faking, fast forwarding etc etc. I tried to leave him 3 times before after telling him that I wanted more out of the relationship, and anytime I tried to ‘upgrade’ the relationship, I would be met with the usual coldness/ punishing behavior or he would ignore me completely until I wouldnt bring it up again. (That’s only part of the things he did).
Well, the final straw came recently. He had asked to meet up with me after I had done No Contact for almost 6 months straight (my 3rd attempt!), I was doing good but since it was the holidays and my birthday was around the corner, I agreed to see him. (I fell for the oldest trick in the book, he told me he had something to give to me, a gift:P). Seems SO pathetic now. But anyhow, after seeing him, and things seemed to pick up and everything seemed nice until he tells me in a matter-of-fact way that he’s going on this island trip with this other girl (which I just happened to know). He then tells me “I just wanted to be honest with you, so you would’nt have to find out from someone else. Its just one day and I really wanted to bring you, but you’re working at that time…”. When I heard those words and when I replayed the whole conversation in my head over and over again. I just could’nt accept it. Who could?! Who in the right of mind, could accept that?!
And what’s worst, while he was away on his trip, I never heard from him at all, not even 1 text msg/phonecall or anything.
That was it for me. Any ‘hopes’ of reconciliation (I can’t believe I actually WANTED that!), or hopes of him being/turning out to be my prince…just vanished.
I knew that I could never ever look at him the same way again, and the fact that he pawned off his trip as something ‘normal’ made things even more ridiculous! I felt like I was in some twilight zone movie.
After I decided to cut him off for good, he proceeded to send me texts. And one after the other, was sweeter than the next. I finally had the courage to delete him and blocked him from being able to msg me.
When I think back on things, I realised that there really is no such thing as an honest cheat. It was the last straw for me.
A part of me wanted to TELL him what an asshole I thought he was for doing what he did, but then again that would only open things up for more ‘discussion’ and 1-2-3 more rounds of craziness…..It really does get old.
Thank you Natalie & everyone else for these great reminders!:)
On verge of a mental meltdown, a close friend just got hitched today and at 38, I feel so pressured being the last one left on the shelf. Almost cave in and wanted to reach out to him whom Ive gone NC for exactly 7mths today. But No, I will not…I must not because he’s already married with kids. I should have gone NC 6yrs ago when I found out he got married, but I harboured a hope that he will return..because our connection was special its like telepathy…but as the years go by it became increasingly obvious to me that he’s keeping me to boost his ego only…It was my low self esteem that made me stayed..as well as my reluctance to step out of a fantasy world. I feel calmer now as I type this..yes, I must not give up on self, NC is right, until tonight, I’ve felt the decision liberated me.
what do you do when you married the guy? im pretty much cutting him off all the time cause I am tired of the excuses why he doesnt have a job, or cant help around the house the majority of the day with no said job… he tells me how much is busting his butt to help but I dont see it. its sparkles and bs flying out of his mouth. yet then when I try to go on with my normal day to function, I somehow am leading him on. I am seperating from him because of this. less than 1 yr of marriage and me taking care of him and him free loading basically, is too too much. thankfully no kids shared.